Karl on Cars

Oops... we were posting at the same time. V70 or CX-9? Hmm... I haven't driven either, but based on my show room time with them, I would say neither. The CX-9 is way more vehicle than I need, plus I hit my head on the A-pillar every time I get in or out. The V70's engine is disappointing and its price gets way up there when you add the options. If I was going to spend that much on a Volvo, I would just bite the bullet and get an S80 V8 (or a C30 plus a truck). However, I'm not sure if I'm going to follow this Volvo with another Volvo.
 
I really liked the Mazda5 that we had, and I'm sorry that it's gone. If Mazda would put a V6 or their DISI 2.3 under the Mazda5's hood, I'll take one of those with all of the options instead of the V70 or CX-9. And with the money leftover, an older Miata with a supercharger or turbo rotary!

Not having the turbo in the 70 series wagons is a huge mistake on the part of Volvo, but even the normally aspirated engine is really enough power for most people. I don't think that the volvo is really the right car to compare to a "mere" Mazda, most people would not cross-shop the two brands. The Subaru Outback with the H-6 is a more likely competitor, and would give better performance relative to price than the XC-70. The Volvo is more of a M-class and company competitor, and in that group is is a "value" leader. It would be interesting if that price "advantage" actually holds up after three years. I'd be willing to bet that the Mazda suffers a much higher rate of depreciation, and where I live (at least) Volvo's are actually some of the cheaper cars to run/service. Of course, where I live trying to get a Japanese or domestic car serviced is a pain in the ass, but there are 4 places that only do Volvo.

Oh, jstandefer, I should have contacted you before getting my Protege! (Actually, I have the Protege5.......I had the Protege in mind but I fell in love with the hatchback the moment I saw one and didn't look back.) I never had the chance to drive the '99-'00 model! But I read a number of articles from Edmunds.com, msn.com and the likes and they all seemed to prefer the refreshed model. If I had read your comments I'd probably have paid more attention to the '99-'00! :(
 
Your reply also explains why the '99-'00 is faster than the latter models! I noticed that from msn.com and thought it had to have been a mistake, given the increased power.
 
I think Mazda tuned that FS 2.0L engine before using it for the Protege. In the 626, it's rated as 125 hp but in the Protege it's 130 hp. I can tell you from my experience that, while slightly noisy, it also revs very freely. I've revved it up to 5500 rpm and it didn't feel strained at all. (I didn't have to courage to go on to the 6500 rpm redline.)
When I first got it, I drove it "normally", meaning not exceeding 3000 rpm or so (unless when doing more than 60 mph). At these speeds, it did sound course and unwilling to rev. But one friend of mine took it for a spin, with me in the front seat, and kept it above 5000 rpm. It sounded nice and smooth like a sports car....I couldn't believe it was my car he was driving! Since then, I rev it to about 4500 rpm every once in a while.
I can also tell you that the body doesn't "roll and heave"...it's probably softer that the '99 to '00 but I don't find it floaty at all.
 
But I don't think the engine is that noisy. At above 70 mph or so, road and some wind noise take over and I can't really hear the engine again. Below 70 mph it sounds a bit course but pretty normal......I like the deep, throaty sound a lot.
 
I'm beginning to think my definition of "quiet" is a bit different from most people here. While I was growing up, my parents owned a '79 Golf (diesel) and an '82 Datsun pickup 1600. So I got used to hearing the engine while driving and I consider it part of the driving experience. Now, the cars in my family are an '02 Saturn L-series and the '06 Corolla. And, of course, my Protege. The Protege is slightly louder than the other too cars at low engine speeds, but about ideal as far as what I expect in visceral feedback from a car....loud enough to hear and enjoy but not too loud to be uncomfortable.
When I test-drove the '07 Mazda 3 last year, I was initially blown away by its nice interior and apparent solidity. But 10 minutes later, I was so bored with it......I had no feedback, I couldn't hear the engine and felt like I was driving a car with an electric motor! It also felt a bit too planted for my liking.....it felt like being in a Mercedes S-Class!

vbhoo, are you implying that Subaru is a premium brand? If so, I disagree. Actually, Volvo is not considered a premium brand either, at least not outside of the US. Back home, Volvo is regarded on the same level as a VW: you know, a bit higher in prestige than your typical Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Opel/Peugoet, etc, but not on the same lavel as BMW, Mercedes, Audi and the likes!
 
I personally do not value the Volvo brand at all......except for maybe its safety, and in the old days, it's longevity.

No I was saying that Mazda and Subaru are more in-line with each other when it comes to brand values. Volvo in the US is "premium" but not luxury brand, as it is in Europe (think Middle England and the Volvo wagon). Mazda and Subaru are non-mass market Japanese brands, and they are the "sporty" on NOT "soulless" Asian brands. Subaru though may, depending on region, be perceived as one peg above Mazda due to their respective owners. Obviously both sit above Mitsubishi et all, but below Volvo. Where are you from that Volvo is a mid-level brand?

Africa: specifically Ghana....and I also lived in South Africa for a while. Hmm, in Ghana the Volvo 100 series was fairly common but I don't remember any sort of prestige being attached to it.......I knew several "normal" people who owned Volvos.
 
In South Africa, I guess Volvo is considered a premium brand much like you describe.....but VW is more or less in the same league as Volvo, maybe just a step below Volvo. South Africans like the German Big 3 and VW so much......very few buy Volvos. Next to Toyota and VW, BMW is the next big seller. Every successful guy wants a 3-series or a Golf GTI!....many local rap songs talk about GTIs and 3-series, with occasional references to Mercedes and Audi. Volvo? No one really cares......the average South African "respects" VW's higher-end models much more.
 
Personally, I see Volvo and VW both as mid-level "premium" brands.

Jstfander, I just checked the specs of the '99 Protege and the '02 Protege. The '99 1.8L weighs 2537 lbs while the '02 2.0L weighs 2639 lbs. That's a difference of 97 lbs.
My question is, does a mere 97 lbs make much of a difference?
 
Karl, will a 97 lbs wieght gain make a difference in performance?

Blackadder, you're confusing me. First you say,
 
"Basically, the notion that modern Mazdas are noiser or less refined than other cars is not true."
 
Then you say,
 
 "Between my Protege and my sister's Corolla, I can tell you that the Protege has a slightly busier ride (which I love, actually) but far better steering feel/response."
 
So you love busy noisey rides but your supposed to be objective enough to say Mazdas don't ride too hard for non enthusiasts? You're proving my point. If you like noisey cars with brittle suspensions, Mazdas are perfect. If you don't, then you really should look elsewear. It's amazing that I reported on two seperate service centers' findings, who happen interact with a large diverse body of owners yet you people still tell me I'm wrong.
 
BTW- i have an '07 GT and the leather seats don't make it ride any softer. Perhaps my style of driving doesn't match my age but when I get rid of it, the next car will definitely be more refined. The roads are just too bad here to deal with all of the suspension's racket every day. Even switching to better quieter tires didn't help.

Karl,
It's like Mazda read my mind! the new 6 wagon- looks like a slammed CX9.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122566#25
 
real question is- will it come to the USA?

Not quite, Chavis.
 
My point is that the NEW Mazdas (3, 5, 6, CX-7, CX-9) are as refined as new cars from any other manufacturers, eg, Honda and Toyota. I've driven the 3, 6, Civic (both the normal and Si versions) and Accord and didn't find any difference in refinement.
(Admittedly, I drove these cars in nice parts of town that have great roads.......but at least, as far as road and engine noise are concerned, I didn't feel a difference between Honda and Mazda: both are a little too refined.)
 
When we consider OLDER Mazdas like my Protege, then the "unrefined" criticism is true.......but in that case, I prefer the "unrefined" Protege because it has the ideal amount of feedback. I went on to say that the Corolla at the time was actually hardly more refined than the Protege as its engine gets terribly raucous after 2800 rpm.
 
Catch my drift now? :)
 
PS: The way you say "when I get rid of my....'07 Mazda 3 GT" makes me wanna cry....LOL. I can't believe you'd hate one of my favourite cars so much! :(
[Yeah, I have a slight preference for the Protege but I still think the Mazda 3 is great.]

"Jstfander, I just checked the specs of the '99 Protege and the '02 Protege. The '99 1.8L weighs 2537 lbs while the '02 2.0L weighs 2639 lbs. That's a difference of 97 lbs.
My question is, does a mere 97 lbs make much of a difference?"
 
balckadder- If it was just the 97-pound weight difference, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of difference. However, that extra 97 pounds are coupled with a softer suspension, more unsprung weight (bigger wheels and brakes; Mazdas are notoriously sensitive to unsprung weight), and slightly taller gear ratios. (The '99-'00 had the F25M-R tranny; '01+ had the G15M-R). Combined, they certainly make a difference. The '01+ was smoother and quieter, but lost that scrappy nature of the '99-'00. The Mazda3 took things a step further... smoother and quieter than the '01-'03 Protege, but became less fun (but all of them are still a blast to drive).
 
It's too bad you weren't here in California back in 2002. I put together a "California Protege Meet" at Ventura State Beach. It was kind of last minute, but we still had about 20 Proteges show up, ranging from San Diego to San Francisco. Mazda even joined the fun, and sent a whole bunch of Mazda merchandise (stickers, water bottles, insulated lunch boxes, clocks, calculators, etc.) plus the just-released Protege MP3. We had all three generations of Proteges there, plus about five Protege5s. It was fun, even though I got a terrible sun burn!

Cruiserhead, the answer seems to be no. Mazda is developing a new 6 for the US market. The cars in your link are for the rest of the world.
 
According to rumours (from CAR AND DRIVER), the US 6 will be larger but will look similar to the rest-of-the-world 6, and there will be no wagon. C&D also suspect that Mazda would soften the 6, thus killing of some of the sportiness!

Thanks a lot for the great info, Jstandefer!

USA version looks the same
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline
 
I was thinking on the CX9 and as a V8 4Runner or FJ Cruiser get comparable mpgs but do it with a tough body-on-frame design, low gear transfer case, true 4wd, solid axle and 5000-8000lb tow rating. The CX7 & CX9 makes even less sense to me.
 
Albiet, the CX9 has a lot more room but if that's the pre-requisite, the Odyseey wins in this department by a huge margin with better or comparable mpgs.
 
Sporty? Well the mentioned euro wagons fit that bill better imo...

Take a look at AutoBlog. This morning, they posted spy pics of the U.S. spec 2009 Mazda6. It doesn't look like it's any bigger than the Euro-spec model, but it definitely has different styling elements. Pretty hot! But I'm sure they will not offer the wagon version here; they tried, and they couldn't move them without $4k rebates.

Blackadder- I liked the 3 when I first got car #1 in Jan '05. It was a complete lemon so I had to scrap it for car #2 last August. Just tired of bumpy ride- everything else on the car is nice except the initial dead brake pedal zone. If I lived in one of these sprawling suburban towns with fresh new roads, it'd be different. And it probably wouldn't be so bad but since I frequently sample other cars, the difference is quite significant. Granted most of these cars are more expensive and heavier which has lead me to the decision of purchasing a slightly used upmarket vehicle in the future ('08 CTS baby!). Heck, I even like driving the Chevy Express 1500 cargo van in the city over the 3. Those inner tube sized tires soak up everything.
  
PS- the Accords are historically noisey from what I'm told. Haven't drove the new one but a friend has an '06 that's pretty noisey. Another friend has a Fusion which seems to ride better than her Accord and he lives in Baltimore where the streets are completely terrible. The '07 Aura that I drive from time to time has the best combination of road isolation/feel that I've experienced in the mid sized segment. Parents just got an '08 Impala LTZ and that baby is whisper silent, even with 18" rims and "performance" suspension calibration (same as the SS V8).
  
jst- saw the new spy pic of the new 6. Looks pretty good but I liked the Euro version's face a little better.

"Albiet, the CX9 has a lot more room but if that's the pre-requisite, the Odyseey wins in this department by a huge margin with better or comparable mpgs."
 
If you start looking at the question of "What car offers the best combination of room, comfort, mpg and price?" the minivan wins everytime. No fair throwing the Odyssey card! That vehicle is simply the best way to economically and comfortably move lots of people and stuff around (once you take the average American's ego out of the equation -- which is why the minivan market is shrinking...).

hehe good one Karl,
 
You know what, this would make a great comparison test! Maybe a crossover/wagon/suv/minivan comparo with a wildcard segmet splitter like the Element, Journey, Mazda5 or something

"But I'm sure they will not offer the wagon version here; they tried, and they couldn't move them without $4k rebates."
 
Yeah, I think I was one of the 1% of buyers who actually got one. I've seen maybe 6 of them on the road in the past 3 years here in Sacramento.
 
I think a more interesting comparison than V70 vs. CX-9 is to look at the now-departed 6 wagon vs. the CX-7 that effectively replaced it. For about the same price, the 6 wagon was faster, held more, got better fuel economy, and had better visibility, all while drinking regular fuel.

Chavis, I guess I understand your point of view now. I guess customers want a no noise car with an ultra smooth ride.......something that goes against my very definition of how a car should be.....electric vehicles should sell very well!
And, hey, if it's a CTS you're getting, I "forgive" you for wanting to "get rid of" the Mazda 3 GT....LOL!
 
flanken, since the 6 wagon is off the market, maybe another wagon should be tested vs. the CX-9 instead.