Karl on Cars

Lets see
 
Purchase Price wise I am assuming this would be the order
1. Smart
2. Focus
3. Jetta
4. Prius
 
Financial utilitarian point of view (meaning I don't "need" a second car) it would be
1. Focus / Jetta / Prius
2. Smart
 
Combine the two and Prius and Jetta are out of the race. They are way more expensive to buy for one and their strong points come with weaknesses (which is odd). Diesel is expensive than regular petrol and most of us drive more than 40 mph most of the time.
 
So its between the Focus and Smart which is a personal choice but since I am smart I'd go with the Focus :-)

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict the Focus as the winner? The reason being is that it is ancient (i.e. cheap) technology on an even cheaper chassis that Ford put almost no effort into and then happily passed along said savings to the consumer. I would also judge these cars not necessarily on this test but on what I perceive to be their life-long costs which is obviously hard for Edmunds to calculate.
 
Jetta: besides the fact that the horror stories about VW TDI reliability I've read on the web would prevent me from even considering subjecting my life to it...the rising cost of diesel destroys any chance that this car wins.
 
Prius: probably will give the best numbers, but as always...at a premium. From what I understand, there are also a few horror stories floating around about maintenance costs on the 1st gen Priuses after their vaunted 100,000 powertrain warranties run out so from a long-term perspective, that makes me reluctant to take the plunge as well since you can't exactly take a broken Prius to Sears to get fixed.
 
Smart: I'm going to predict this as being dead-last in efficiency based on several disappointing early reviews I saw. From what I understand, its lifeless engine is absolutely taxed on inclines trying to propel this thing with any force and goes a long way towards destroying any efficiency gains. Then you have to think about the paltry warranty and its pathetic reputation in Europe. I think you had the right idea Karl when you said that unless you have unbelievably severe parking problems (Boston, NYC, SF)...you should stay away from this car.

Lessee, the Jetta will carrry the day thanks to its powerplant and depreciation (a new one would be a wash versus the smart), but the smart will come in second thanks to its low entry price and good real-world mileage, then a tie between the Prius and Focus (better mileage versus lower purchase price).

"If put to a real-world test, which of these cars would get the best fuel mileage?"
 
The new EPA mileage numbers place them in this order for annual fuel cost based on 15,000 miles/year, 45% Highway - 55% City miles, and with differences in fuel costs taken into account:
 
Prius = $1175
 
smart = $1601
 
Jetta = $1780
 
Focus = $1933
 
As for True Cost to Own (for 5 years per Edmunds) try this order:
 
smart = Not listed
 
Focus = $34,956
 
Prius = $36,319
 
Jetta = $37,466

Actually, I wonder how a natural gas vehicle would have fared, specifically the Civic GX. I'd find it particularly interesting since there are also renewable sources for natural gas.

In terms of pure mileage, I'm guessing that the Jetta is going to win, based in part on the fact that a gallon of diesel contains more energy than a gallon of gasoline. I also remember seeing a video online where a diesel BMW and a Prius went head to head from London to Switzerland, and the Prius lost the mileage contest.
 
I'm not so sure on total ownership costs - I would once again guess the Jetta (because of the depreciation for being three years old), but I've heard bad things about the reliability of VW engines (although maybe I'm just thinking of the 1.8L turbo).

I think the Prius will do well against the Jetta. With the Jetta you have to pay for the twin turbos that most diesels have, and for all the gas you'll spend driving back and forth to the repair shop for electrical glitches. They're pretty close in size and 'niceness' too, imo.

Most diesels have twin turbos? I didn't know that.

I think this is a trick question- "It depends "
 
If you do mostly city driving and don't want an econobox, a loaded Prius is a good option.
 
Lots o highway driving and don't want an econobox, get a used diesel Jetta.
 
Looking for a cheep car with that new car smell... but average at everything else, Get the focus.
 
Want to show off or if you have a really REALLY small garage, get the smart.
 
In my 10 mile commute to work, I do about 70% highway and 30% city driving. A hybrid makes no sense for me as a commuter car. If Diesel was cheaper, that would be my option.

Sorry, I was wrong about the 'twin' part.

7driver, natural gas cars are slightly less ecomonical (in terms of mpg) than equivalent gas/petrol cars. But natural gas is cheap, so from a $ perspective natural gas cars are economical. This was discussed on the GREEN CAR ADVISOR blog several months ago.
 
2002blksle, I like your analysis. However, looking at the Prius' fuel economy, it is rated 45 hwy. Most econocars do around 35 mpg hwy, and some 4-cyl midsized cars do 32 mpg hwy. So even for someone who does a lot of hwy driving, a Prius still makes sense (from a mpg point of view).
 
Question: do hybrids not have more low-end torque than diesel engines because of the electric motor?

As noted above ( below? ) any used vehicle is a better choice in terms of total cost of transportation. However I will add three factors that I feel certain that your team will ignore ( you implied one already ) - incorrectly.
 
Fuel will not remain constant except in a very short period. So what then is the purpose of the exercise? Over a longer period of ownership fuel is going to go up and up and up. What factor of inflation have you entered into your calculations.
 
Secondly the period of ownership is never specified in these simplistic analyses. This metric should be total miles driven. It needs to be estimated in order to get a TOTAL cost of ownership. If Edmunds were a small business buying vehicles for deliveries for example it would have to estimate the actual effective lifespan of such vehicles and estimate the mileages driven during that lifespan.
 
Thirdly all these simplistic analyses always ignore resale values. This is really really surprising because Edmunds presents itself, correctly so, as an accurate provider of resale information. Edmunds is often used as a resource by the buying 'retail' public before going out to buy.....if expected resales values are not incorporated into the equations then the results are immediately suspect. This along with 'expected ownership period' has the benefit of accurately balancing the differences between buying new and buying used.

kdhspyder, very interesting points you've raised there!
 
I have a far simpler set of giudeline about buying cars for private use:
 
1. If you can afford it, buy new. It's simply better. The peace of mind that the car has never been used, the new car smell, low maintenance cost, it's just better.
If you can't afford to buy new, then buying used makes sense.
 
2. Keep the car until it gets old. For me, this is 10 years or longer. There is just no reason to change a car unless one's needs changes or the car becomes too unreliable......or one's economic situation changes.
 
If a car is bought new and kept for 10 to 15 years, resale value is a non-issue, since all or almost all 10-15 year old cars have poor resale value anyway. (IMO, the only time when resale value is an issue is if there is an accident that causes the car to be totalled and the owner has to be paid by the insurance company.........but I reckon this is only a valid issue for the first 7 years or so of ownership.)
 
NB: These are just guidelines. Certainly, a wealthy or well-to-do person can afford to change their car every 3 years if they so please........

Is the Jetta going to be treated as if it is a new car? Because the 2008s aren't out yet? You definitely have to consider resale value, or if you keep your vehicles 10+ years, the longevity. Look up the resale value of any diesel powered vehicle after two years, compared to the equivalent (equal towing capacity or equal torque, apples to apples) gasoline powered vehicle. In most cases the resale delta more than offsets the initial premium for the diesel engine. That's not even considering the fuel. According to this week's petroleum report, Diesel is 5% more than regular gasoline on an energy equivalent basis. Since Diesels are 25-30% more efficient than SI engines, you are still 20-25% ahead on fuel costs with the diesel. By the way, B99 biodiesel is now less per gallon ($3.69 January 08 report) and per energy unit than dino-diesel, and about the same as current gasoline prices. Where I live, I can have renewable, non-toxic, biodegradable B99 delivered to my house in quarterly installments (a la fuel oil) by the local fuel distributor with no delivery charges, costing less than diesel at the pump, and giving me a 25-30% fuel cost benefit over a comparable gasoline powered vehicle. Regarding longevity, I don't think my own daily driver, diesel, at 10 years and 250,000 miles, running strong, is atypical. I do think, based on my previous daily driver, gasoline, 11yrs and 170,000 miles with one engine rebuild, that if I had purchased another gasoline powered vehicle I would be on my third vehicle now, not my second. That's a big cost factor for those who don't trade every few years.

blackadder5639
 
The problem I have with these simplistic 'snapshot' type of analyses is that they reflect only a limited number of variables in the 'real world'. In essence this 'Smackdown' only applies if one were to drive only the same route for 1000 miles or so. It's basically the 'snapshot' of the fuel eocnomy of several vehicles over a week's vacation.
 
Nothing else can be inferred.

So, is this a test of miles per gallon or running cost? Because from the sound of it the latter seems to be the case while the title and premise is the former.

Both

I'm interested in your thoughts on the 09 Prius. Bigger, faster and 94mpg's according to Straightline... pretty sure that will spank the Smart and every other vehicle out there.

cruiserhead1
 
First the 09 Prius will be essentially unchanged ( Sept/Oct dely ) from the 08 Prius. It's the 2010 Prius which will be DELIVERED in 2009 which will have changes.
 
I'm absolutely certain that the next Gen Prius will NOT get 94 mpg. That was the dream of some Brit writer a couple of years ago. That idea is from outer space or somewhere....drug induced? Who knows.
 
The Auto Observer article here at Edmunds has is more correctly ...
.. slightly bigger vehicle and same shape for Prius 1
.. smaller shape for Prius 2
.. something else for Prius 3
 
..Prius 1 will get about 10-20% better fuel economy; i.e. 55-60 mpg MAX in real world driving ISO 48 mpg today
.. smaller Prius 2 might get upwards of 70 mpg
.. Prius 3 ??? who knows
 
.. Prius 1 will likely have the 1.8L ZR1 engine from the Corolla and xD with significantly more horsepower
.. Prius 2 will be smaller and more efficient probably with a smaller engine too.
 
Everything else is hype.

My name is Sam and I am the Ford Focus Brand Manager writing in from Dearborn, Michigan.
  
Very cool test concept - I am anxious to see what you have to say and how the test went.
  
You know which car I want to win in the SMACKDOWN!
  
Sam