Talk Back Tuesday: Performance and a Paradigm Shift?
 
If you've studied automotive history...well, congratulations! You're among a depressingly elite group of people in today's world. Regardless, if you know your history you know that big changes in the automotive marketplace tend to come in cycles. Two of the most dramatic occurred in the 1960s and the 1970s. In the '60s performance ratcheted up as domestic automakers got into a horsepower war; a war that resulted in the most powerful production vehicles of the era. Then, in the early 1970s, a combination of factors aligned to not only end the horsepower war but punish the combatants (both at the manufacturer and customer level). Between political, environmental and safety concerns it was suddenly much cooler (or at least more socially conscious) to drive a Vega than a 'Vette. In case you haven't already noticed, we're on the brink of a similar shift.
Exhibit A comes from a Wall Street Journal story that has Bob Lutz verbally sparring with politicians and environmentalists ("Which is which?" you may be asking yourself...). Congress wants GM, and every other automaker, to improve fuel efficiency by 4% a year over the next 10 years, while Lutz insists that horsepower sells far more effectively than gas mileage (social consciousness be damned). Who's right? It doesn't really matter because, ultimately, politicians are more powerful than captains of industry (even the really charismatic ones). Lutz admitted in this article that GM has put the rear-drive Impala on hold because it can't predict which way the political and regulatory winds are going to blow over the next five years.
Exhibit B comes in the form of growing acceptence that human activity is affecting the climate. The facts surrounding this issue are rapidly becoming a moot point. Like most campaigns in human history, it's not the fact or fiction that matters, it's the amount of support that can be drummed up -- often through simple repetition. If Ralph Nader and the safety advocates could convince congress, and the American public, that putting a 55 mph speed limit in place would save both lives and gas, then surely Al Gore and the environmentalists can convince those same groups that we're destroying the planet.
Exhibit C comes in the form of mandated stability control on all cars by the year 2012. It's likely this move will save lives, though exactly how many is up for debate. I remember once upon a time when the widespread use of ABS was seen as the great savior of drivers and passengers across the fruited plains, but it didn't quite work out that way. However, the fact that automotive-related fatalities have remained essentially flat (roughly 40,000 a year) for the past decade is starting to grate on the safety zealots (nevermind that millions of additional cars and drivers are on the road every year while the average driving speed keeps increasing...). They want this number to drop, and you can expect them to keep pushing for laws they think will make that happen. In the 1970s it was gigantic rubber bumpers (done to save vehicle damage as much or more than lives). In the 1980s it was seatbelts. In the 1990s it was airbags. In recent years, in Europe, it's been front end designs that don't hurt pedestrians. And of course they hate SUVs and will happily support any move to cut horsepower and vehicle speeds.
Put it all together and you have a convergence of political, environmental and safety concerns that is poised to drastically alters the cars we buy and drive. Sound familiar? One missing elment this time around (so far) is the insurance industry's targeted attack on any vehicle that dares to offer performance. I think the number and breadth of special interest insurance companies in 2007 make it unlikely we'll see that tactic again.
Ultimately the performance of the 1960s returned to U.S. showrooms by the mid-1980s, but it was a painful 10-plus-year drought for enthusiasts. And when those cars did come back they were indeed safer and more fuel efficient than their forebearers. Vehicle performance has only gotten stronger over the past 20 years, but I don't remember ever seeing this much anti-performance-car energy brewing. I was born too late to witness the death of the muscle car, so my information comes from reading books and talking to those that did see it happen. With plenty of cars packing over 500 horsepower and the ability to crest 200-plus mph it could be argued that performance has had its due.
What say you? Do you see a shift coming? And is it time for a change in priorities, or should we keep pushing for the $30,000 family sedan with 500 horsepower and a 200 mph top speed?
Posted by Karl Apr 10, 2007 6:37 am
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Categories: Talk Back Tuesday | Domestic Manufacturers Problems/Challenges | Safety Systems | Fuel Efficiency | Future Vehicles | Hybrid Vehicles
flicmod
- Apr 11, 2007 12:36 pm
(#28 Total: 47)
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carlisimo,
Thanks for the reply. I don't have a lot of knowledge about studies or reports suggesting the debate on speed limits, so I can't use any of those. All I have to go with is what people say on these boards and my own experience in the highway design field.
Using my career experience, roadways are always over-designed. Design speeds on interstates are around 75 or 80 MPH depending on geography and other conditions. Urban roads usually have design speeds of 35 MPH, which is really the lowest design speed you'll see. Even still, these design speeds have a huge buffer in them for safety reasons, so in all actuality, there's a dual layer of protection for speed limitation.
Obviously, just because the speed limit on a given road is 55 MPH doesn't mean that if you go over that you're in danger of crashing. There's no one in this world who has never gone over the speed limit some place at some time... we can all attest that roadways are relatively safe when traveling above the posted limit.
Additionally, posted speed limits mean nothing. They may influence people to drive at a slower speed, but they certainly don't enforce it, nor do they communicate truthfully to the driver that higher speeds are achievable.
IMO, speed limits are in place to make a suggestion on how fast you should go and to shift the liability of auto accidents off of the government and onto the motorist. I'm not against this, however. Personally, I think we have way too many ridiculous court cases today to be heaping more onto and against the government. Speed limits are more of a "disclaimer" saying "we're not responsible if you crash your car when you're going over the posted speed". A perfect example of this reasoning being used elsewhere in the transportation field is in my home state of PA. About a decade ago, a woman was killed when she drove through a guardrail. Her family filed a lawsuit against the State of PA saying that the "guardrail" didn't "guard her" from dying. I believe the State settled on it, paying a large sum of money. Subsequently, PennDOT changed their terminology on the hardware from "guardrail" to "guiderail" to avoid any other such cases.
Although the posted speed limit legislation may not have started as a "disclaimer" to protect the government from lawsuits, this is effectively what it is today.
The last point I'll make here is on the mentality of American drivers. Someone above mentioned the concept of the "American Autobahn", which I think is a terrific idea... if it weren't for the mentality of drivers here in the US. The Autobahn works in Germany because there are written and unwritten rules for driving on the thing. Rules such as each lane has a minimum speed limit. If you're in the far left lane doing 80 MPH, you're committing suicide. Here in the US, most states don't have a law regarding the purpose of the left lane vs. the right lane. In PA we do, though. Right lane is used for cruising, left lane is used for passing. That's how it is in Germany as well. We still have idiots that don't acknowledge that here in PA. Traveling in the left lane and driving even with someone in the right lane is not proper etiquette, in my opinion, and the Germans happen to agree with me. I can't imagine how it is in other states without a the suggestion of lane purpose.
Americans will also become insulted if you make any kind of polite communicative gesture to indicate that you're going faster than they are. On the Autobahn, they flash their high-beams at someone in front of them to let them know that they need to get over because they're holding up traffic. If you even so much as think about trying that here in the States, you're going to get dirty looks, silent behind-window ranting, and probably flicked off. American's mentality of "I want what I want and want it when I want it" gets us in trouble too much, especially with each other. Individualism has its downsides as well.
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Wrt fatalities, many changes to cars have helped reduce these at lower speeds (stronger structures, better design, etc.). But what of high speed deaths? Are these increasing or not?
Wrt high speeds themselves, yes they ARE increasing - I've seen median speed on our Los Angeles freeways go up at least 10-15 mph over last 10 years no matter what the speed limits are. As for interstate I - 5, 90+ speeds are common now, __including_ some trucks!
Meanwhile USA roads get worse every year as money to fix them remains tight or non-existent. Ever been to Portland, OR? Freeways up there are nearly worn down to re-bar!
It seems a driving "enthusiast" wants these things made possible:
1. The most responsive yet affordable car on the planet
(including biggest engine, flattest handling, fastest response),
2. The cheapest fuel on the planet
(especially, No taxes on that fuel (keeps the fuel cheap)),
3. The fastest possible road speed to drive at
(preferably __no__ speed limits whatever),
4. No obligation to learn how to drive fast ("I just want to
go fast_fast_FAST!")
5. The biggest car on the road that meets 1-4 above (the
better to feel safer in).
On other hand, the USA system currently offers:
Various regulations on vehicles to make them fuel efficient,
Gas tax pays for road repairs (and some public transportation),
Fuel in short supply (may be temporary),
Drivers not trained to handle higher speeds ,
Most freeways and public roads are not getting "bigger"
More and more trucks are using roads for "road-trains" (I - 710 in
LA has become a "truck-way", with more of these on way)
Sooner or later this imbalance will give us gridlock on public roads or other major driving issues. This excludes the highly debated issue on whether auto emissions affect the environment (Hint: Move to Bangkok, Thailand or Calcutta, India, and enjoy auto emissions LA CA used to have, only worse)
How might the enthusiast __achieve__ driver nirvana?
Perhaps by racing on closed courses, not public roads, or building more race tracks, offering more driving privileges on existing tracks, special freeway closures for paid-event high speed driving (as they do one day a year on I-15 in Nevada), or creating privately funded toll roads allowing autobahn style driving at a price?
On other hand, is there a way enough enthusiasts could ram a public works project through Congress to build the high speed USA "public" autobahns they want, _and_ create special exemptions for Car companies to build those performance cars in spite of the other debated issues?
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flicmod, totally agree on all those counts.
Oh, interesting factoid in the news relating to government incentives for hybrids in the Bay Area. Used hybrids with carpool lane stickers are selling for $4,000 more than those without!
(Our local freeways have rush-hour only carpool lanes, and the government issued 85,000 stickers to any hybrid that got more than 45mpg, to let you drive alone. They're almost sold out, and they're not likely to extend it because they don't want to add too much traffic to those lanes. The stickers aren't transferable from vehicle to vehicle, even if it's totaled. There are similar stickers of different colors for CNG and electric vehicles, I think.)
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Hey Karl, look on the bright side. If you own a real performance car today, it will be worth so much more in 20 years if these regulations go through.
ESC can and will save lives, there's no doubt about that. It has been shown to do so in real world studies, not just in a lab like with ABS. I'm glad it's been mandated.
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L.A. CA United States of America |
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I definitely think ESC is a good thing. The reason ABS failed to save lives in the real world is most people didn't know how to use its benefits (i.e. Just slam on the pedal, and if you're still going to hit something steer around it WHILE KEEPING THE BRAKE PEDAL PINNNED). The beauty of ESC is it's brainless functionality. Even if you're an idiot it can and will save you. In fact, it's based on driver idiocy (i.e. the ESC computer basically says, "The loose nut behind the wheel of this car is obviously going to spin it unless I intervene").
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gcn
- Apr 11, 2007 6:28 pm
(#33 Total: 47)
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Karl, I have read the entire NHTSA document about ESC and they are actually more concerned with understeering out of control. Yes, oversteering out of control (spinning) is a concern too, but less so than understeer.
I was particularly interested in their reasoning for refusing to include roll-over control in the rule, this being that a) there's not much data, and b) the way to do it is to make the vehicle run wide which can either actually cause the understeer off the road problem, or even worse, understeer head-on into an oncoming vehicle. In other words, it is likely to change the accident to one which may be just as bad, not avoid it.
I was pleased to see that a fair amount of thought had gone into it anyway. I think people are going to have to learn how to use ESC too: far too many people give up on a corner they could probably have got round if they'd stuck with it (the car is generally more capable than the driver). If you give up steering then ESC or not, you are not going to get round a corner!
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Albemarle County, VA United States of America |
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Levyrob, you said "I think some of the safety zealots do have their head in the sand by looking strictly at fatalities per year, rather than accounting for miles driven and the increasing number of cars on the road."
Head in the sand? So it's okay to allow 43,000 Americans to die each year, 117 on average every day, as long as the miles driven, cars in use, (and by inference, population) continue to increase? Do we say the same about murders? Breast cancer? Plane crashes? Soldiers killed in Iraq?
Japan has a goal of ZERO fatalities within 15 or so years. Maybe a touch unrealistic, but they have cut auto fatalities from 13K annually in 1970 to about 7K now. The European Union wants to cut crash deaths from their current 40K or so to about half that in about the same time frame. So how about it America? Isn't this more important than worrying about Imus, Britney, or (insert the latest celebrity/sports figure scandal here)?
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One problem with ABS is that it takes serious concentration or practice to remember to steer while braking. A bigger problem is that no one's ever told that braking hard and steering at the same time is a good way to spin out.
ESC doesn't require thinking, and sadly enough that's exactly what we need.
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flicmod
- Apr 12, 2007 6:30 am
(#36 Total: 47)
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210delray,
Zero automobile fatalities is COMPLETELY unrealistic. If it were possible to achieve that statistic, then what would stop the human race from preventing death period? That's not a "touch" of unrealism. That's overly-zealous and extremely idealistic. That statistic is unobtainable.
According to the CIA World Factbook, Japan has a population of 127,463,611. The US, on the other hand, has a population of 298,444,215. Talking percentages here, only 0.000144% of our population died in auto crashes a year. Comparably, 0.00005% of Japan's population dies in auto crashes a year. If you consider how densely populated Japan is, it's quite a feat to reduce auto fatalities by almost half in 30 years... assuming that 210delray's statistics are correct.
There's no doubt there needs to be further measures to reduce auto deaths, but I don't think passing legislation is necessarily the way to do it. People downplay the concept of education so much, especially when it comes to safe and smart driving. It doesn't matter how much legislation you pass, ESC, ABS, and airbags won't prevent you from not paying attention and driving off the roadway. You can cover a car in frilly, pink pillows, but that's not going to prevent death or injury. Ultimately, it comes down to educating people in becoming safe and smart drivers.
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Albemarle County, VA United States of America |
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Zero is unrealistic -- agreed, but with the coming advances in active safety such as drowsy driver detection, collision avoidance radar, car-to-car communication, and even unobtrusive in-car alcohol detection systems, I think we're on the threshold of greatly reduced fatalities. It can't come soon enough.
Education is highly overrated -- no one has successfully devised a course to keep people from crashing. Why? IMO, attitude trumps knowledge. Look no further than teenagers, especially males, in a car full of their peers.
Education obviously can tell people HOW to drive safely, but it won't MAKE them drive safely. Look at Michael Waltrip's recent "accident." As a two-time Daytona 500 winner, he must be an "educated" driver, no?
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flicmod
- Apr 12, 2007 9:47 am
(#38 Total: 47)
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You drive an '07 Volvo S80, don't you?
You're only thinking of education as in sophomore driver's ed in high school. Sadly, the driver's ed program in high schools is shoddy at best. I've gone through it and it's worthless. While this is part of the education that I was talking about (and it's one area that needs fixing), it isn't what I was specifically referring to. I'm talking about the attitude and mentality of driver's across the board. There has to be a way to change peoples attitudes and mentalities to turn them into safer drivers. I don't have any ideas of my own besides increasing the driving age or harsher consequences for having accidents... then again, to do the latter properly, an overhaul of the insurance companies would need to happen as well... but we won't get into that debate again.
Just last night on the local news, I saw that two people died in a road rage related accident. Is ESC or ABS going to save people in that scenario? I don't think so.
As for Michael Waltrip, I don't watch NASCAR anymore; haven't in a long time. So, needless to say, I don't know what "accident" you're referring to. However, ESC won't MAKE someone driver safer either. How does ESC save you if a woman is putting on make up while driving? How does in-car alcohol detection systems (whether obtrusive or unobtrusive) save a guy when he's too busy talking on the cell phone and rustling through some papers in his brief case while driving? They don't do that. Just this morning on the way to work I saw a woman reading a magazine in stop-n-go traffic. I also saw another woman through my rearview mirror (who was right behind me, mind you) putting on make up while coming to a stop because of a red light... if that isn't nerve-wracking, I don't know what is.
I don't care what kind of avoidance system is in place, nothing is going to prevent people from multi-tasking/dozing off/plain not paying attention/etc. while driving. In fact, the implementation of said systems might even encourage people to do these things MORE because they feel that all these devices grant them more freedom. Did ABS teach people how to brake properly? No. As people have stated above, just because you have ABS doesn't mean you can jam the pedal to the floor in an emergency and turn the wheel at the same time.
Education is more valuable than you think.
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Albemarle County, VA United States of America |
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"There has to be a way to change peoples attitudes and mentalities to turn them into safer drivers."
Bingo! Nobody's found the silver bullet. Not that we haven't tried in 100 years. The same is true for illicit drug use: "just say no" and preventing teen pregnancy: "abstain from sex until marriage." Utter failures.
One major problem with driving is that almost everyone thinks of himself or herself as the best driver out there -- it's the OTHERS who are idiots: "Sure, I can text message and drive -- I'm a licensed pilot who knows how to multitask. In fact, there should be different classes of licenses, and I would qualify for the highest class." This is more or less paraphrasing a middle-aged guy in a recent newspaper article about "driving while texting."
And as we lead ever busier lives, we're going to have MORE people like that self-assured pilot, with disastrous consequences. I'd rather place my bets on technology than with retraining or educating 200+ million individuals (in the US alone).
And no -- I don't drive a Volvo S80, but rather more prosaic 2004 and 2005 Camrys and a '98 Nissan Frontier.
Google "Waltrip crash" to find out the details of that event.
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flicmod
- Apr 12, 2007 12:34 pm
(#40 Total: 47)
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Just Googled the Waltrip thing. Seems ol' Mikey is a bit off his stool. Seems a bit odd, however, that this incident comes at a horrible time in Waltrip's career. Going off of the article I read on ESPN, his team was pretty eager to dismiss alcohol being involved. I always find that suspicious. Anyhow... I never said anything about racecar drivers being safe drivers. The only part of being a racecar driver is the roll cage, 5-point harness, and Hans device.
Relating safe driving education to abstinence until marriage is not a good comparison. This is the wrong forum to get too deep into this, but sexuality is a primal desire that burns inside everyone. I get a burning desire to drive fast sometimes (as some of you probably do too), but I don't think the desire to drive fast, or, in Waltrip's case, recklessly, is even comparable to sexual desire. Now, with the drug use issue, you may be on to something.
I'm not against technology helping this situation. I'd put my bet on it too, but only in the right circumstances and conditions. The problem I have is that some people want to make it law. The best case scenario that could come out of the gov't making ESC standard is that automakers allow you to turn it off. Toyota and GM won't do that. PTL, Honda lets you.
Who says we have to educate all 298 million people? Sorry for another Nazi Germany reference here, but what was one of Hitler's methods of persuading the German public to side with him through all of his brutal schemes? It was the indoctrination of the youth. The youth were taught at a very young age how to act, what to believe, and what to do. If this fatal accident issue is as important as we're all making it out to be (ie. that we'd pass heaps of legislation to implement "safe" driving systems) why wouldn't we go balls to the walls and make safe driving habits apart of the classroom as early as, let's say, grade school? We don't have to re-educate the masses; all we have to do is start implementing these things throughout childhood. You could even put it on a realistic, tangible timetable; just like Japan did.
You still didn't answer my questions on how ESC and other preemptive devices save lives when people multi-task out the wazoo. I'd like an answer to that one.
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I think all we need to do is take a look at Germany to find how we can drive faster and safer at the same time. They have a culture that harshly looks down upon poor driving, and therefore encourages good driving through peer pressure. We need to figure out how to cultivate that here.
I think a start would be law enforcement focusing on poor driving habits that they currently completely ignore because they are harder to enforce. Habits such as not signaling, camping in the left lane, etc. This would be possible if law enforcement drove truly stealth cars. I'd unfortunately get more speeding tickets this way though. Actually this might not work either because most officers don't know how to drive properly themselves.
I am opposed to most of these newer safety features. They directly contrast the current issues of increasing fuel economy through the curbing of vehicular obesity. Weight is the enemy. In fact, in a multi-vehicle collision, more weight equals less safety for those you hit with your 4000 pound car.
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United States of America, loud'n'proud! |
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flicmod- what makes you say that GM wouldn't allow you to turn off ESC? Both GM vehicles I own have ESC, and it's possible to turn it off on both (along with traction control, which both ALSO have). It's true that you can't permanently turn it off (resets each restart) though.
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flicmod
- Apr 13, 2007 7:57 am
(#43 Total: 47)
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Historically, GM's TCS's weren't able to be turned off. A la WS6 Firebird. Seeing as how ESC and TCS are run through the same system, I was merely speculating. But I could be wrong abut GM. What GM vehicles do you own?
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United States of America, loud'n'proud! |
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2005 Terraza and 2007 Avalanche.
I've found that the 'traction control' on the Terraza is more like Anti- traction control. When you really need traction, you're probably better off turning it off (got stuck on a relatively steep gravel driveway because it sensed a tire spinning and started killing power and applying ABS to the slipping wheel to the point that it refused to move- even to get started once I got stopped! Turned it off, backed up a bit, then hit it again with no problems and minor tire spin..). The Terraza is a FWD-only model, not the optional AWD setup. I've never seen the ESC activate (or known if it did).
I haven't really noticed either system working on the Avalanche though. Which I guess means that everything's working exactly as it should. I only recall reading the manual about how to deactivate them (uses the traction control button for both, on both vehicles- seems to me you press and release once to disable traction control, or hold it down for x seconds to disable both).
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flicmod
- Apr 13, 2007 11:47 am
(#45 Total: 47)
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My '04 TSX had the same problem your Terraza had, only it was in the snow. Probably like an inch or so on a steep hill. I crawled up that thing; luckily I didn't get completely stopped or I would've been doomed. I tried turning it off while it was engaging. It didn't like that. Needless to say, it didn't turn off, it just kept engaging. This situation only happened once. The TCS works wonders in the snow. I put it to work this winter ;-)
I've gotten my ESC to engage plenty of times on tight corners when pushing the car to its limits. It's a heck of a lot more fun with it turned off, but when it's turned on, you really get a sense of how it corrects the car. No doubt it's safer with ESC, but it tones the personality of the car so much.
Do either of your vehicles have an indicator on the gauges or dash that lets you know when either the TCS or ESC kicks in? The TSX has an orange triangle with an exclamation point inside it.
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Take Heart! On some other sites specs of the Corvette Blue Devil have cropped up: 650 HP V8, fantastic handling, ferocious response (0-60 @ 3.4 sec), around $100K. Lutz commented they're having trouble getting all that power to the road, but flip side's it's the ultimate Drift Machine!
American Enthusiasts, that car (or rather, around 1500 or so of them) is to be here sometime in 2008. Why not become friends with your local Chevy dealer and get in line now?
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United States of America, loud'n'proud! |
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I believe the DIC display (odo area in speedometers) changes when the ESC activates. With the Terraza you can also easily tell the difference by feel alone though. I'm still not sure about the Avalanche, though. So far as I know I've never had it kick in either system.
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