Edmunds CarPool

I'm sure they will initially sell for over sticker, but I never let that be the excuse for why I don't buy a vehicle. That just means there's more demand than supply, which is almost always the case with any new vehicle (well, except for the "all new" vehicles from certain manufacturers...). Regardless, above MSRP pricing just means you have to look a little harder to get a good deal, it's certainly not a statement about the car being bad (actually, quite the opposite...).
 
When I got my Mini Cooper I ordered it exactly the way I wanted and had to wait 10 weeks to get it. But once I had it I had the EXACT vehicle I wanted and the 10-week wait seemed like nothing. If you guy a car and keep it for any serious length of time then an initial wait of a few weeks, or even a few months, is really minscule in the big picture.

i give my vote to the FJ... although don't tell ken (brown) i said that. lol

The initial projection was for 40-45K units or about 2-3 per store per month on average. I hear it's been bumped up to 55K+ units now which means 3-4 per store per month. The bigger stores will have more and the smaller ones less ( 1 a month? ). Waiting lists will be inevitable initially at least.
 
At our store the owner says he gets the first one and there are about 5 others, my wife included, who are demanding the 2nd one. LOL

wow. lots of demand for this vehicle. although i must say, i'm not surprised.

You wouldn't consider a solid front axle "superior equipment" for off-road use? You must not have that much experience with "off-road driving surface(s)".
 
Besides, comparing a new FJ to the old Wrangler is apples & oranges. I bet the FJ beats the socks off a 1945 Willys or a 1970's FJ for that matter. Put one side by side the new Wrangler, that'd be worth reading about.

I wonder if there's enough of a market for these off road vehicles, given there are fewer places to go off road nowadays.
 
Image sells, though, so it'll be a hit as an urban SUV for young males, I bet.

Remind me...does the FJ Cruiser have these "superior" off-road equipment:
 
- 4:1 transfer case...with crawl ratio as high as 73:1?
- Lockers front and rear?
- Solid axle as mentioned above for off-roading?
- For '07, front axle sway disconnect...RTI of 832?
- Significantly better approach/departure angles?
 
I think that as a "big Jeep Wrangler fan," you may need to read up more about Jeep Wrangler Rubicon before making such a comparison with the FJ Cruiser...just a suggestion on a particular aspect of your job.
 
Thanks.

Ok, I hear a lot of wind, but no substance. I read many claims but nothing whatsoever to back these claims up. Not only does not show anything behind his hypothesis, he doesn't even say anything more than what any other Toyota PR writer would. My question is; did he even drive or ride in this vehicle? It sounds to me like a "blind" review of a vehicle. If that is the case, what did it cost Toyota for this "inflation" of a less than exciting re-incarnation of one of Toyota's best names.

You guys are coming up with a lot of theoretical reasons why the Rubicon is better. Sort of like the theoretical reasons why the IS350 has huge advantages over the 3 Series (horsepower, high-tech electronics, etc.) But just like "shopping by spreadsheet" is a excellent way to end up with the wrong car, so is "reviewing by spreadsheet." I suggest you drive both -- like I already have -- before making any final judgements.

Ok, I can accept that you have driven both and you now have an opinion based on that. But, understand, you did not state that, nor have you given any reasons as to why the FJ40 is better. I agree that "shopping by spreadsheat" can be bad, but it is no worse than taking someone else's opinion of what is better if they don't say why is better. I will admit that I am not impressed by the looks of the Toyota (biggest hang-up since I would have to look at it everyday) but what about the specs of the vehicle make it perform better? I, for one, would not be interested about hearing what makes it better on the road, since I have no complaints about my TJ's on-road driving, but HOW does it stack up compared to a Rubicon's off-road abilities? What is better and, be honest, what is worse? Also, I since we are talking about a "new" model, do you plan on making a similar comparison to the new Wrangler Rubicon when you get a chance to drive it?

That's a good question...are you saying that you DROVE the new '07 Rubicon already?? I did not think that it was possible...yet.

I don't even mind that you a comparing it to the old RUBICON but this quote is a complete joke:
 "I'll maybe give the Jeep Rubicon a slight advantage in pure off-road ability, but only because of the Wrangler's tidier dimensions, not because it has superior equipment or any other inherent "capability" advantage."
 
This thing will fall apart trying to go where a stock RUBICON will take you. If you don't believe me, get a hold of me and I'll take you on a real test drive.
-Endo

Apparently, as you noted in my own quote, admitting the Rubicon is more capable off road isn't good enough. I have to say it's waaaay more capable, or something of that nature. Well, I won't, because I don't think it is. It has a shorter wheelbase and shorter overhangs, so it will likely not scrape in EXTREME off-road situations where the FJ will...slightly scrape. But it's not like one will skate over the Rubicon Trail while the other crashes and bangs and eventually brakes. It's going to be very close either way.
 
Let's look at some specs:
 
Ground clearance is close (10.3 Rubicon/9.6 FJ), but Water Fording isn't (15 inches Rubicon/27.5 inches FJ). Neither is horsepower (190 Rubicon/239 FJ). Or torque (235 Rubicon/278 FJ). Tire Height is close (31 inches Rubicon/32 inches FJ) as is Breakover angle (25.4 Rubicon/27.4 FJ)
 
Of course I know first hand that the FJ has exceptional off road abilitiy (probably better than almost any 4x4 except a Rubicon), plus better interior space, a quieter cabin at all speeds, better on-road steering feel, higher towing capacity (5,000lbs vs 2,000lbs) and a capable sound system (even the base audio system as auxiliary input for MP3s). Oh, and it costs $6,000 less than a Rubicon.
 
But, for the .1 percent of the population that ACTUALLY goes extreme off roading all the time (and not the other 20 percent that wants to act like they do), the Rubicon is better...somewhat.
 
Either way my original statements stand: The FJ is a screaming bargain; it's better equipped than the competition; in terms of everything not related to going off road, the FJ pummels the Wrangler

Karl, interesting points. Thanks for providing a more complete assessment.
 
I am going to talk only about off-roading aspects of the Rubi vs. FJ. The other stuff is well-known and you are right...Jeep Wranglers are not known for their on-road comfort nor sporty handling.
 
Ground clearance...well, the FJ has IFS, which means that the ground clearance over the front suspension is variable (goes up and down with terrain), not static like the Rubicon. This is where solid axle is better. In addition, FJ has a lower front end (due to car crash compatibility requirements)...not a good thing in off-roading!
 
I will give you a clear example of why IFS is inferior to SA in off-roading...when striding a V-shaped rut, IFS tends to buckle inward and break...and when this happens, you cannot do crap on the trail to fix it. Solid axle is stronger and easier to work on.
 
Water fording...well, Toyota has been known to stretch the truth a little with their stats. Did you know that the rear axle on the Toyota does NOT have a breather tube (rubber tube from axle to a higher point)?? Sure, you can go thru 27" of water...but can you do it repeatedly or thru muddy stuff without clogging axle breather?? I know this because i used to have a 4runner and my brother has a LX470...Toyota does not install a rear axle breather tube on any of it's trucks/SUVs. So, i would take this 27" water fording "fact" with a heavy grain of salt!! If you don't believe me, then ask around. It is a very popular (& cheap) modification by anyone taking their Toyota off-road.
 
HP and Torque...well, in off-roading, you would probably be in LOW range most of the time, right? So, when the Rubi goes into LOW range, what happens?? Ahhh, torque multiplication. Well, the Rubicon has a transfer case with a ratio of 4:1...almost double that of the FJ. Crawl ratio is very important. So, in essence, the Rubicon has a lot more torque than FJ going to the ground. And what keeps torque on the ground?? See next paragraph....
 
Axle articulation. The RTI of the FJ will probably fall around 400...typical for Toyota 4runners/GX470 (without KDSS), which shares the same suspension design. The stock RTI of Rubicon is around 530-550. So, old Rubicon flexes better than FJ. In '07 model, you can also get Front Sway Disconnect (from factory, like Dodge PowerWagon)...and the suspension will then flex to RTI of 832! Double that of FJ!
 
Now, with that flex, you add in lockers in front and rear. And as you may know, lockers are superior to ATRAC over rough terrain. The FJ has ONLY a rear locker (optional) and much less flex in it's suspension. You will NOT need "extreme" terrain to see the benefit of the Rubicon's suspension over FJ's.
 
As far as cost is concerned, i am not sure if FJ will be THAT cheap. Most dealers will markup the price. For sure, they won't give any discounts or special finance rate, esp. if Toyota is intending to limit it's production numbers! With the Rubicon, Jeep dealers are always willing to negotiate...most of the time, you can get a Rubi at or below invoice with great finance rate.

Good points all. I haven't tried out the Front Sway Disconnect yet in the new Power Wagon, but it sounds quite trick. And no one (except Chrysler engineers) has driven the new Rubicon yet, so I can't say how capable it will be (though your description makes it sound pretty over-the-top -- literally and figuratively -- in terms of rock climbing).

Karl, well, hopefully the new '07 Rubi can back up my claims and not embarrass me! The quality/reliability will be tested for sure on the new more-technologically-packed Rubicon (with ESP, BA, and power windows!). Unfortunately, neither Chrysler nor MB are known for making reliable electronics...and this applies to even the simple power windows! I have a G500 with multiple window regulators going out at only 30K miles! My brother's Town & Country minivan (which shares the same powertrain as the new Wrangler) just blew it's transmission at 70K miles!
  
That was one good thing about the old Rubi (my other brother's)...not much to break or malfunction. Everything was manual or mechanical. I believe that the old/current Wrangler had the best reliability scores of all Jeeps (and probably all Chrysler products!). For the longest time (before the new GC came out), the Wrangler also had the best crash testing scores from IIHS!! Now, that's sad and good depending on your viewpoint.

Karl,
  
I don't know what you're smokin', but on paper, the FJ can't even match the Xterra off road, let alone a Rubicon. An on road, the FJ has so many compromises compared to the Xterra, that the X is a clear winner.
  
Explain to me how a vehicle that disables the front traction control when the rear differential is locked is going to come close to a Rubicon with BOTH axles locked, or an Xterra, which at least allows the front traction control to work while the rear is locked.
  
The turning radius of the FJ is seriously bad, and it has less HP and torque than the Nissan.
  
I don't think you r*e*a*l*l*y were allowed to take the FJ over tough obstacles, were you?
  
As for on road features, the X actually has a useable backseat with real doors, and a backseat/front seat folding combination that allows long stuff to be carried, it has skid control that works in 4WD (which apparently the FJ does not), and the skid control on the X can be disabled at will with a button.
  
Bottom line:
  
Ultimate Off Road: Neither FJ or Xterra touches a Rubicon, stock or modified.
Combination off road/on road practicality: Xterra smokes the FJ
Cuteness: FJ hands down

Rubicon, Xterra, FJ Cruiser & Hummer H3: Sounds like a Edmunds comparo screaming to happen. That should put all these questions to rest.
 
Hey Karl... how 'bout it?

Not an off-roading benefit in the true sense - but - I can take the roof OFF my Jeep and look awesome on or off road!!
 
I won't slag off the other vehicles as I really don't have the knowledge to do so....
 
But looking at that ugly FJ, I'd bet my Wrangler would do far better off-road.. and I mean OFF-ROAD - not just pansying down some poxy dirt trail :)
 
One road - arg... who cares!!!
 
Cheers

Trust me, I R*E*A*L*L*Y drove it off road, and it R*E*A*L*L*Y kicked ass. The photos in our road test don't show it because those were taken on our own drive in Hungry Valley, California. But there was a very extreme trail up north of Ojai, California that I drove during the press event (before I took the drive-away model for our own testing) and we put the FJ through very extreme stuff. The press kit has all sorts of crazy shots that show the level of wheel articulation. If you want to see them go to this site and click on the" FJ Bulletin" link and then the "Rubicon Trail" link and then the "photos" link: http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/fjcruiser.html
 
As for the Xterra vs. Rubion vs. H3 vs. FJ, I guess we'll see which one is R*E*A*L*L*Y best (on and off road) after our comparison test...

Love to see the comparison, but I think Toyota should have jumped on the retro bandwagon and made it look more like an FJ40, which of course was copied from the early CJs.
 
What I love most about my Rubicon is not offroad prowess, but its personality. The intangibles. The fact that is is so closely related to the previous models. Every 4 year old can identify a Jeep. You feel like you're driving a true piece of Americana. Who cares if it's noisy and bumpy on road? It's fun! The hard and soft top make it feel like two different vehicles. Put the top down on the Rubi and drive to your favorite trail head and then tell me that the FJ pummels the Rubicon on road. You'll be grinning the entire drive. Tell me the FJ matches that.

Car and Driver beat you guys to it...Xterra ranked #1, followed by Jeep, FJ, and then H3.

I was just noticing that C&D has the X #1, and (I believe it was) in Motor Trend, the Xterra lost out to the FJ.
  
I can't wait to see more comparisons.

Now that these bad boys are coming out (this week). Lets see some more articles tests and video comparison. This truck is hot, and we all need to know more about it. Do you think it's foolish to buy the base model? Do you need ATRAC if you don't plan on spending much time in the snow? How does the base compare heads up with the Jeep, lets see the real world side by side test.

Check this out.... its pretty capable
http://people.clemson.edu/~gfujii/upstate/gallery/fjcgreyrock/fjcgreyrock.htm?f=41 or head over to www.ih8mud.com to learn more about it
 
As for which one is better on the trail, I think it has more to do with who's in the drivers seat than the factory stock vehicle. I'm sure the rubi and FJ will be matched up soon in all of the mags for a true hands down review. Both vehicles have their perks and shortcomings. Can't wait to see what happens.

We ran Xterra vs FJ this week, both off road and on (plus full instrumented testing). We'll have the story up in a few weeks, and probably follow up with something involving the new Rubicon as soon as we can get one.

I have had the opportunity to take both an 06 xterra and an 07 FJ crawling up the mountains on New Mexico. Near Cloud CRoft, north of Alamo Gordo. I drove both vehicles and the are uncomparable. The Xterra has a loose uncontrolled climb, loosing traction every so often, have to compensate with acceleration. The FJ Tranny allows very controlled climbs, and I never lost traction unless it was actually due to a tire coming off the ground. The FJ drove itself down the mountain, never did I feel like I was going to lose it or did I pucker up at all. The Xterra travelled down the mountain completely out of control, the suspension is so loose and the leaves are bouncy. I think the FJ is one of the best built reasonable offroad ifs machines out there.
 
P.S.
I have a 1980 toyota Pickup solid axle truck lifted and all the good stuff, but it's ride is almost unbearable. It will take you anywhere offroad, but it is impracticle as a daily driver( i did it for 7 years). SA is great but the more you push the outdated technology, the longer IFS will continue to suck, and on the road the difference between IFS and SA could mean your life.

Daily driver vs. Off-road capability. I would agree the Rubicon is probably more off-road capable. However, it is like driving an old Jeeep Willies. I test drove one last year. I was not impressed. A friend of mine owns a 1985 jeep and it is just as nice as a new Rubicon.... So why not save some money and go buy an old Jeep. The FJ is a huge improvement in drive ability. It was very comfortable and quiet inside... It even takes rougher terrain with grace. I understand it has some limitations with IFS, but ride is important. Now if your can afford to park your Rubicon in the garage and drive it just off road well by all means be my guest... By the way they rarely stay stock if off-roading is it's only purpose.
 
PS. I agree with joalva. IFS won't step it up until it becomes a more main stream off-road option. My last rig was SA, but it didn't ride like an FJ and I'll bet the FJ would give it a run for the money off-road especially with a some mods... Such as axle breather, snorkel, 3" Lift and larger tires.... Etc.

I don't understand why people are bashing such a good vehicle?? I think its intimidation. Absolutely hands down the Rubicon is the off-road champion, the "Xterra smokes the FJ off-road"??? hardly. People must understand that yes the FJ is an off-roader but Toyota needed mass apeal to establish a good foot hole in the market for the new vehicle, thus the retro "cuteness". I have driven all three the rubi, the xterra, and the FJ, and as far as quality of materials and ride the FJ gets it hands down. For those who are skeptics on the FJ's offroad capability upgrade the front bumper and take it down the rubicon trail yourself. Here's a vid of some people who did just that:
  
http://www.offroaders.com/directory/toyota/FJ-video.htm
  
I think Toyota should be welcomed in their efforts not bashed. they made an excellent vehicle.

I just traded in a Porsche Boxter for a Wrangler Unlimited. Most of my friends thought I was crazy. But when they ride on my Jeep, they immediately understand. When I got my Boxter, I was not interested in a car. I wanted moving fun: fun that takes me there. Let the average Joe drive cars. Those of us that live life with true excitement want to enjoy the moments that get us there. The rest of the world works hard to acheive goals. Some of us think that goals are the excuse that gives us direction. It is the time we spend getting there that counts. After all, what is our life, but the time we spend between each thing and the next.
So, when I got bored with my Boxter, I thought I needed a new and different kind of fun. Of course, the new fun had to be convertible. Who wants to be confined to walls and a roof while getting from one place and another? Wheather permitting, a car top must be open.
I used to have a Suzuki before the Posche. So, I did find the Porsche too confining. I did feel I was trapped on the roads. I couldn't even drive over the little concrete barriers in parking lots. Therefore, I thought I would look at a 4WD vehicle.
The Toyota looked rough enough. But the roof is unremovable. The Hummer H3 is within my budject. But it also has a roof and the windows are ridiculously small. I actually had one assigned to me at work and returned it because it made me feel trapped inside. I have so much more fun driving the Jeep.
I think that Jeep reviewers are insane. They actually review the noise as if it mattered. Noise to a person like me is like saying air. Would you want a car that does not sound? You would have to be sealed inside, like in a Mercedes or a Cadillac. Then, why would you even consider a Jeep? Good points about Jeeps: You hear your Jeep!!! You feel the road!!! I loved that about my Suzuki, my Porsche, and currently, about my Jeep. OK, alegorically, buying a silent, air-soft-suspension Jeep would be like buying a moto-cross bike with a silent engine and Harley-Davidson type of suspension.
The point is that I want a real review, aimed at the market segment that wants true SUVs. By reviewing SUvs as if they were cars, reviewers are making it look as if the more rugged a car is, the worse it is. No wander, car manufactures are continue turning their direction from building rugged SUVs to lookalikes. Lookalikes get great reviews while the real McCoy gets crap.

Xterra truly Rocks!! FJ is just ok. A rear seat designed for prisoners, meager visibility, calibrated for trails instead of tarmac.

Hey 'gramon' I think you had one too many malt liqours while telling your story as evidenced by your last incoherent paragraph. And since this original thread appeared, the Toyota FJ edged the Nissan Xterra in an edmunds.com side by side comparison - it did so primarily by winning the off-road segment. Your Jeep is a sad, dated anachronism. Own a new Rubicon if you are the unibomber and don't commute on modern roads. You may then see an advantage over vehicles such as the FJ or Xterra which can tackle 95% of anything a Rubicon will - while being refined, comfortable and most importantly, reliable and well-built. Something Jeeps have not been for decades.

"The FJ is a screaming bargain; it's better equipped than the competition; in terms of everything not related to going off road, the FJ pummels the Wrangler"
 
Oh, give us a break. FJ does not even have sunroof - say nothing about a choice of two convertible tops and removable doors. This is the most important feature in a car designed for fun outdoors.