Edmunds CarPool

They are in the process of EXECUTING. People act like the new GM trucks and the Lamdas are the first competent vehicles in history. There is more work to be done, but let's not forget about the C6, CTS, HHR, Lucerne, Equinox, etc. Most (not all) of their products over the last three years have been at least competitive and somewhat successful. Those who think cars like the Lacrosse, G6 and Cobalt arent signs of promise need to look at GM products of 10 years ago and compare. People talk about previous GM promises, but never before (as far as I know) has GM tried to turn around by using design, improved interiors, better use of global resources, etc. In the past GM's efforts centered striclty on layoffs and plant closures withou addressing the design and engineering aspects of the company.

1487,
 
If you think the HHR is competitive, you've got another thing coming. I've said before in another post that it took GM 5 years to come up with a comeback to the PT Cruiser. As far as I know, the PT Cruiser still leads in sales for that segment... which honestly only has two vehicles in it: the HHR and the PT Cruiser. I don't really consider it a success.
 
The C6 is successful because it's a Corvette. Everyone knows that the 'Vette isn't designed by the same design team that designs the Cobalt and the HHR. You can exclude that from your rhetoric.
 
I'll give you the fact that the CTS is successful and competitive. But the Lucerne? Come on. The Lucerne has gotten bad reviews since it came out a few months back. The Northstar has been out of date for years and is in need of a refresh. The only people that buy them are rental companies and senior citizens.. but then again, it IS a Buick.
 
As far as the Equinox... it's not a bad vehicle. Competitive within it's segment.
 
And since you've mentioned "improved interiors", have you seen the interior of the Saturn Sky in person yet? Horrendous! It wreaks of cheesiness! The dash looks of similar quality plastic as my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toys back in the mid 80's. It's a shame considering the styling is so appealing and the drivetrain is of decent status. I'll say the same thing for the Cobalt.
 
GM still has a long way to go to be able to rank up with its Japanese competitors. You can't compare the progress GM has made to the status it had back in the 90's. You need to compare it to the current competition of the market... and quite frankly, they don't compare. The reason I said EXECUTE is because we've been hearing them talk about fixing things for the past 4 years and we haven't seen anything that resembles execution. I'm honestly praying that GM's latest lines come out on top. Lord knows they need it.

I completely agree with Lutz's statements and have been very impressed with GMs most recent products (save for the Lucerne, LaCrosse, and Cobalt, which while not offensive, fail to accomplish anything new or substantive).

Roar,
 
I completely agree with you. Despite some thoughtless mistakes like the ones you've mentioned and also the lack of any appeal with the HHR and the lack of quality on the interior of the Sky/Solstice, I like what GM is doing! From what Karl said about the Outlook/Acadia, it looks like it'll be a big hit. Same with their truck line.
 
On my list with what GM needs to do to turn around, I have to kill the Denali lineup... I may have to rethink that one considering that the numbers prove that GM sells that particular line! GMC is obviously holding its own... now if the whole restructuring of Saturn will pay off and if they can re-identify Buick and Pontiac, things should be good for GM.
 
I'm happy Lutz is making these comments known. I have a new respect for the man.

I really don't know how much GM actually "listens" to the Lutz blog. But when Lutz began discussing RWD cars over a year ago, "his" blog was flooded with enthusasists demanding Lutz resurrect the Camaro. Once the prototype was announced there, the blog got more positive postings than ever.
My problem with Lutz is knowing when he is talking GM hype, and when he's talking truth.  The '04 Malibu he hypes and which I own is indeed an improvement over older GM cars but definitely not up to Toyota in reliability nor refinement.

2006 through Oct, PT Cruiser sold about 117,000, HHR sold about 90,000. I'm surprised the older Chrysler is outselling the newer Chevy. I guess people still prefer its looks, or maybe the Cruiser has been reliable and earned a good reputation, so word of mouth, and/or repeat sales.

While we're on the subject of the skys/solstice's interiors, lets start at the top with the top. There is no reason for it to be that time consuming and difficult to open and close. GM could have at least made them power operated (at LEAST as an option) and since the miata was a step ahead on ease of top use, MAZDA goes and gives it a POWER HARD TOP! GM is seriously falling behind.
 
GM needs some new (or serious updating to it current) 4 and 6cyl engines (and the Northstar v8)! Ford is seriously leaving GM behind -slowly, but surely-. Ford is updating Volvo, Landrover, Mazda, Ford, and Lincoln. All of those brands has something with an appealing offer (eg. C70, LR2, CX-7, Navigator). Gm is upgrading Chevy, saturn, buick, pontiac, and cadillac but all of they're competitors has better offers out (eg Sky vs mx-5, g6 cabrio vs EOS, ts vs Es350, Tahoe vs Expedition, need i go on?)
 
GM is in a serious hole and until it fixes those major problems, they are going to have problems.

Killing the Denali line-up would be stupid - it accounts for over 50% of GMC truck's sales! Not to mention the fact that I know from speaking to a lot of drivers of GMC, Chevy, Cadillac SUVs that in no way do they consider their cars to be the same - i.e. each loves their Escalade, Tahoe, Yukon, or Denali more than any of the other "twins."
I think the best statement that Lutz made is the second quote - b/c oh man, does that not describe Ford or what!!

sddoc07 -- you are too correct! When he made that quote I leaned over to a fellow journalist at the event and said, "Hey, was that a not-so-thinly-veiled crack at Ford?"

Thanks for the sales figures ahightower. Much appreciated :-)
 
sddoc07,
I must say that I should've researched sales figures of the Denali line before I added that to my list for GM. My bad ;-) If they're selling that well, definitely keep the line. My co-worker has the idea of killing off all Chevy trucks and moving all GM trucks to the GMC brand, thus consolidating products. I don't know how I feel about that yet, but it might not be such a bad idea, especially if they make a complete Denali line of every model they offer.

Right. GM is doing a better job but not closer to some brands. My question to Mr. Lutz will be. Why is GM trying to keep two divisions that don't make any sense (Pontiac & Buick) in the US market today nor make any susbtancial profits for the company? Excuses abound to this answer from"it cost a whole lot of money to shut down these divisions" to "the solstice is cool" to "they have brand loyalty". Think about it. Do you leave your kitchen faucett with the water running all the time? GM have cool cars but they need to focus on the real cash cow divisions.

flicmod,
 
You have no clue what you are talking about. Check the Lucerne's sales vs the Avalon. The Lucerne got rood reviews from non-enthusiats magazines and even the monthly mags liked it to some degree, especially R&T. The Lucerne is selling well and very few of it's sales are fleet.
 
The HHR may not outsell the PT (probably due to incentives) but it's a larger and more useful package and looks better to many people. The PT is the leader but the HHr has been much more successful than the critics predicted. You are incredibly biased and uninformed to say the least. The interior of GM's SUVs, lamdas, Impala, Lacrosse, DTS, SRX, Lucerne, etc. are every bit a good as the Japanese although the Germans are still in the lead. Lexus is also at the top of this category. You cannot honestly say the average Toyota has a better interior than modern GM vehicles. Have you seen the Rav4?
 
Notice I didn't mention the Sky, I'm not impressed with it's interior but it is cheap so I shouldn't be shocked. You and I both know the Kappa cars are not representative of the average new GM product. That said, many roadsters are known for being more about style than interior quality until you get to the big league players like SL, Xk, SC430, etc. Check the interior of the 350Z for reference.
 
autoboy,
 
please do some research about GM current engines. If you think Ford is leaving GM behind in engines than you are really out of touch. Ever heard of the LS2, the 2L turbo in the Solstice GXP, the LS7, the 3.6 DOHC V6, 6.2L Vortec, etc? What world are you living in? GM's 2.4L ecotec makes a maxium of 177hp which is more than any of the competition except the engine in the TSX. Also, I fail to see how you have reach the conclusion that the Expedition is clearly superior to the Tahoe. Please explain that.

1487,I don't trust R&T ever since they did their TSX article last year and said that a TSX with navi is only $27K when the actual price without navi is $28K. Seeing as though the navi costs and additional $2K, that puts it at $30K. Trust them if you'd like, but I'd suggest you take it with a grain of salt.I just got done researching the Lucerne and its competitors. Did you know that the Lucerne has no direct foreign competition? Even the Avalon isn't a direct competitor. The Lucerne has an optional V8 in the CXS trim. No other foreign car thats even indirectly in this segment/price range has an optional V8. I'd like to see sales numbers for the V6 version compared to the V8 version.I've read some reviews of the latest Avalon and I see that they've had some build quality issues with it. Lucerne sales are actually pretty high. I apologize for my lack of research that I should've done beforehand. Most enthusiast magazines, however, didn't like the car very much. That includes Edmunds.I'm still of the mindset that the Northstar needs to be updated. My co-worker and I calculated the average HP of a N/A V6 engine the other day. Came out to be roughly 255HP. I say roughly because we didn't include every single V6 engine out there. I think it's a fair assessment though. Considering the Northstar makes 275HP, I don't really think it's up to par with other V8's from other manufacturers, even the domestics. If Honda and Nissan had a direct competitor to the Lucerne, I think they'd be beating it in sales... provided that Honda had a V8 engine to throw in the thing. Unfortunately they're not in that segment.As far as the HHR, I think the consumers speak for the popularity of the vehicle compared to the PT. Looks and appeal are subjective, so we let those categories up to the consumer. The numbers are in favor of the PT. Sorry to say.I'm glad you admit the interior quality of the Sky is sub-par. I disagree with your assessment of the interior quality of roadsters though. Have you seen the latest MX-5 interior? I haven't in person yet, but from the pics it looks rather nice. The S2000 has always had higher quality interior. As far as the 350Z, I can't say. Haven't been inside one myself.I sure hope the Kappa's aren't representative of the newst GM cars. Especially for interior quality. The Outlook/Acadia looks appealing. So do the Aura/'08 Malibu twins. Like I've said in other posts, I hope GM has already executed this matter. They seem like they have so far with the likes of the Saturn lineup.

1487,
"GM's 2.4L ecotec makes a maxium of 177hp which is more than any of the competition except the engine in the TSX."
I think you're forgetting the Honda F20C/F22C (S2000) at 240hp and K20Z (Civic Si) at 197hp. Plus, there's the Toyota 2ZZ-GE (Celica GTS, Corolla XRS, Matrix XRS, Lotus Elise) at 180-190hp.But yeah, the Ecotec has a pretty good specific output... for not being a Honda or Toyota (sorry, couldn't resist that jab)

The TOyota engine you mentioned isnt in production anymore, it couldnt meet new emission rules. What I meant was that the ecotec 2.4L made more hp than other 2.4L engines except the one in the TSX. As you know HOnda's high revving engines have no torque so it great to talk about the Civic Si's hp, but it's torque is pathetic compared to the Ecotec.
 
flicmod,
 
The Kappas are very cheap cars, period. You are being silly if you think their interior quality has anything to do with more expensive GM products. You noted other attractive GM interiors yourself so I think you have answered your own question. The Lacrosse has a better interior than the Kappas and it came out in 2004.

Hey 1487,
 
I know this is not a forum to talk about the Lucerne versus the Avalon, but if we are talking about GM, and whether or not there is hope for the bloated producer of (historically) subpar cars, this might be a good place to ask:
 
What is the big deal with the Lucerne having a V8? So what if it has a V8 compared with the Avalon's V6? The Northstar is an antiquated hunk of metal. Look at the numbers:
 
Lucerne -- 275 HP @ 6,000 RPM, Torque: 295 @ 4,400 RPM, 17/25 City/HWY
Avalon -- 268 HP @ 6,200 RPM, Torque: 248 @ 4,200 RPM, 22/31 City/HWY
 
Honestly, which engine would you rather have? Most drivers would not notice the 20 HP difference, nor the 47 foot pounds of torque, but would notice the huge difference in gas mileage. Yeah, GM may be doing some good things, like the new 3.6 liter that is in a few models, but most continue with aging iron under the hood that can not compete with so-called imports.
 
As for the Solstice/Sky twins being a sign that things are turning around at the General, a certain auto magazine ripped the Solstice at the end of a long-term test as being something close to unlivable.
 
Sure, GM is better off than Ford, but that ain't saying much.

That quote about Toyota being the default brand. Many of my family members are repeat Lexus and Toyota buyers many times over. I personally don't feel that GM (and many others) don't take their car line-ups seriously. Their only concern were the gas-guzzling trucks. FInally, 2007 is around the corner and some promising products are on their way.

"As for the Solstice/Sky twins being a sign that things are turning around at the General, a certain auto magazine ripped the Solstice at the end of a long-term test as being something close to unlivable. "
 
First off, if you actually read my comments you will see I am no fan of the Kappa cars because their interiors are cheap and they have no storage space. Those cars are about performance and styling and little else. BUyers know they arent family cars or made for long vacations. One thing is for sure, they look pretty good, especially the Sky. I would venture to say the Sky is better looking than anything on the road from Japan today. As for that certian magazine, I have to question the reasoning of any magazine that buys a cramped roadster with no luggage capacity and a fussy top and then spends a year with it and sums up the experience by complaining about the car being small, cheap, having a fussy top and being impractical. It was all those things when they bought it so they should have left it on the lot and stuck with the MX-5.
 
The V8 in the Lucerne isnt efficient compared to a 3.5L V6. That isnt news to anyone. The Lucerne needs a 6 speed auto and a better V6 but its sales seem to be holding up just fine.
 
YOu dont seem to know much about GM engines so I will let you believe whatever. The only engine that GM needs to dump is the 3800. Everything else is competitive even though the northstar could use a bump in hp.