Edmunds CarPool

As a current customer, I have two concerns.
 
One is lack of spare tire. I think it is stupid and outrageous. They can install all the run flats they want but a premium car should have a full size spare.
 
The other concern is utter lack of manual gearbox cars at BMW dealers. What kind of "ultimate driving machine" message are they trying to send?
 
Otherwise, just stay the course and keep them coming :) And please, give us diesels. We want diesels!!!

Here's something I've always wanted to know...though if the Chairman of NA can answer it, well, we'll see: (getting an answer for this is highly unlikely)
 
BMW design has really crisped-up in the last couple of years-- more cohesive flame-surfacing, restrained-yet-agressive faces-- ; was this a natural evolution from Bangle and his team, or did BMW management, in the face of Audi's sales boom and highly tailored design, step in and mandate more subtlety in styling?

I take a very diferrent view of BMW's current styling, and I think it is the reason they are losing favor among their traditional buyers.
 
The 'flame surfacing " and other Bangle oddities are horiible and the new designs garish - their core buyers (i.e. those who would also shop Audi, MB, possibly Porsche) want cars that are understated and sophisticated . Look at how overdone the bodywork is. Stationary things like skyscrapers can handle design elements that add motion like flame surfaces, a 2 seat roadster which is itself the embodiment of motion can't handle it - it conflicts with its nature. So here is the thing,.the geezers (I am only 38, but most BMWs seem to be driven by 17 year olds) like me hate it, the auto press and award givers hate it, but the youger generation seems to like it - the BMW sales numbers prove it
 
So BMW morphed from one successful design paradigm to another, when it was not necessary, but they did it. Will it have staying power or is Bangles eyesores a fad? Now that is the question. I say it will be viewed historically as a huge misstep, but tiem will tell.
 
Thankfully, there is Audi and MB for me and my peers. Even if BMW puts its cars on a diet and admits that less is, in fact more, when it comes to design, they won't gain back their core customers because the image of teh brand has been stained.

I've owned 3 BMW products over the past 4 years.
My big issues with BMW rest in the manufacturer's push to add more weight , complexity and size. The e90 grew in every dimension from the e46 and in the process evolved from a low-slung, enjoyable sedan into a floaty, barge-like land yacht. Likewise, the creep in weight makes the car feel positively lethargic in corners. The e90 may handle better than the e46 but it comes at the expense of roadfeel and the sense of being one with the car. And finally, worthless extra gadgets like drying brakes and hill hold do not enhance the driving experience - they simply tack on weight and potential warranty issues.
 
My 2003 330i with Performance Package was as close as I could get to an M3 sedan in the e46 bodystyle. Had BMW sold an e46 M3 sedan, I'd still be on my first BMW.
 
I replaced my 2003 with a 2006 330i. The car was bigger, slower, less involving to drive, tomb quiet and sported the worst tires on earth. It was anything but the ultimate driving machine. It was the ultimate Buick clone. Even after moving to normal tires - which improved the car's handling and ride - I still couldn't get over how large and heavy the car felt at all times. I ditched that car at the start of this month - thankfully someone assumed my lease.
 
I'm now driving a 2007 Cooper S and it's infinitely more engaging than the 3600 lbs 330i I left at the side of the road. Still the RFTs will have to go again - they're just not comfortable and they tramline with startling ease.
 
An M3 sedan - ideally lightened to 3300 lbs - would help some. Not everyone wants a coupe. I will be forced back into the 3 series when my wife and I have a kid; if I must suffer through going back to the behemoth e90, at least give me the M model to choose from. The car will still be obscenely big inside and out, but at least shedding all the excess weight will help return the car to some of the fun the e9x lineup misses today.
 
They need to bring over the 1 series too. Heck, any small RWD manual sedan under 3300 lbs would be a godsend.
 
When it comes to performance sedans, BMW is unfortunately the only game in town with a bunch of others clicking at the heels of the carmaker. It's sad but true that no other carmaker can compare right now. I have a feeling BMW knows this and this is one reason they're not catering to performance-oriented drivers. They improved on the e46's handling with the e90 but at the same time, morphed to attract the wide-load Americans and their luxury tastes though. Rather than segmenting BMW more from the likes of lesser wannabes like Infiniti, Lexus, Audi, the boys from Munich took a little positive performance step and then added liberal amounts of luxury (isolation, size, complexity). BMW is closing the gap with their rivals - making their cars less harsh, loud and fun. I fear the next version of the 3 series really won't be that much different from the likes of Lexus generic next-gen IS or the dowdy Infiniti lineup.
 
To the other persons: styling is of zero concern. Stop blaming bangle for the e9x's problems If a person is buying based on styling, go get another car. It's about the drive. That's where BMW is losing ground. The car's aren't as communicative or exciting anymore. They're grounded, stable and bland. At 140+ MPH my 2006 e90 was coma-inducing. Lacking verve or any edge, the car had the personality of a Chris Columbus film.

Ask him why we don't see more wagon models here in the US. I, for one, would like to at least see more of them, and possibly own one some day.
 
I echo the sentiments on the 1 series. And offer it in diesel too.

Great comments guys!
 
I have to leave the hotel soon for the lunch, but as with Mulally I'm printing out this thread to personally give to Tom. For those that haven't commented yet, figure it's possible (maybe even likely...) Mr. Purvis will come back to view this thread in "real time." If others have things to offer feel free to keep 'em coming.
 
Thanks!

I think BMW's winning fewer awards because of price, particularly since most of the Edmunds awards are based on price point. As nice as BMWs are, they're always expensive. In fact, BMW is second only to Mercedes-Benz and Porsche in that regard.
 
I would argue that BMWs are always nicer than even the Benzes (but not Audis), and I appreciate the kick of modernity that the Bangle-era has brought, and surely their sales figures suggest that their pricing is spot-on. But at the same time, I don't see myself ever stretching to the BMW when there's an awfully nice Audi sitting a few thousand dollars lower.

Just made it roar -- printing now.

Just stress:
 
1. Lighter cars
2. M3 Sedan
3. 1/2 series soon!
4. Diesel

For sedan under $35,000, was only the 2007 328i considered? The 335i starts well over $35,000. I don't know how well-loved the 328i alone would be with the staff.
 
All of the 2007 G35 Sedans start under $35,000 and I would think they would all outperform the 328i.
 
I hope you had a great lunch with Mr. Purves! I'd be interested in hearing more about the 1 Series plans for the U.S.

I can't believe I missed lunch! Karl I need more notice; I have to actually work once in a while :-)
 
BMW needs to work on:
Vehicular Obesity A 5 series is less than 100 pounds heavier than an E90!
 
Diesels in the US (from the 1 to the 5, maybe even the 7)
 
4-banger 1 series for the US (I know the 318ti was a brand tarnishing joke for us, but I think it can work this time around. Gas prices are soaring, the 4-cylinders are better, and it's a 1 series, not a 3 series, so less worries with brand image.)
 
Wagons and manuals ON THE LOT! Sure they exist on paper, but try to find one.
 
I want to say price lastly, but at the same time I see where you guys are coming from, with a weak USD, and obviously you're doing well in sales. I guess I just need to make more money! Parting thought: A 328i wagon built out to about 44k for me. A similarly equipped (and much more powerful) G35 sedan comes to about 38k for me.
 
In closing, keep doing everything else you're doing, except what everyone else is complaining about, I'm with most on that. I've heard great things about the real world fuel economy the 328 achieves; keep it up!

Why does everyone think we want the 1-series? In Europe it's known for being very expensive and having uselessly small rear seats and a uselessly small trunk - and this is by people who consider the Focus and Golf to be comfortable family cars!

Calisimo: I want the 1-series! Especially if it's a 135i. I'll put up with useless seats, high price, and what I hear is a lousy interior, for a light(ish) RWD hatchback with a TT I6.

I for one am excited about the possibility of a true sport compact with rear wheel drive that is cheaper than a three series. A friend of mine just recently had to part with his 1998 5 series. He fully intended to purchase another 5 series, but the price to value quotent was just too high for his taste. Therefore, he decided on a three series. But after pricing a premium package and zenon lights on the 328 he was already north of $38,000 (without the sport package). I am as much a bimmer fan as anyone, but once a three series is north of $40,000 other cars seem to be far more appealing.
 
Even with BMW being the best compromise of ride and handling, the other competitors are not so far behind to justify a $6000-$8000 price differential.
 
However, if the one series coupe started at $27,000 with a premium and sport package around $32,000 with a six cylinder engine, I could justify that. This market is starved for premium well built compacts. Besides the Mazda 3 and the Jetta there are not any small sedans or coupes that have leather, auto air, power seats, and an engaging driving experience. When you get in a BMW it is quality of the materials and the attention to detail that is impressive.
 
I know that the Mini and other liftbacks provide utility and an entertaining driving experience, but in this country a liftback will not garner the type of excitement compared to a sedan or coupe(note I am not including all hatchbacks specifically intended for sport such as the Camero, 240SX, Mustang, Celica's of a by gone era).
 
Sedans and Coupes are far more appealing to look at and drive. While the liftback may have more room in it, one does not pay north of $30K for a compact car for its utility. I like the looks and characteristics of a Mini, but I would not purchase one myself. If BMW would bring out a compact sedan and coupe weighing 2900-3100lb with a six cylinder engine I would jump in a heart beat. The original 325e and 325i models had very small back seats. So what, back seats in this type of car are typically only used for small children.
 
I know that in my family we hardly ever use my car when the family goes to do something. We always go in the mini van. To me it makes no sense for me to go drive a large to mid-size car on the few occations every year when I would like to have more room. However, I don't want to sacrifice the features that make driving an automobile fun just because I want a smaller car. Therefore, to make a long story short the 1 series would be a welcome and coveted addition to my life.

I also missed this deadline.
( sigh )
If I had made it under the wire, I'd have suggested this question:
Why no LSD - even as a option - on the 335i?
With the TQ produced by this marvelous TT motor, I really expected an LSD...
One of the primary reasons the 335i fell off my shopping list...
- Ray
Love TQ - but need it managed... and NOT by electronic TC

You can add an LSD. Heck, there isn't a sport sedan in the ELLPS market that can come near the 335i...so obviously the LSD wasn't really all that necessary.

ROFL. I don't care how "engaging" it is, I can't see paying ~$30,000 for a RWD, small, V6 powered car. When you hear or read posts griping about the most recent GTO being overpriced at just a tick over 30, and comments that the upcoming G8 needs to be mid-20s to very low-30's at best, or that the Cadillac CTS is overpriced in the low-30's running to low-40's, I see no excuses to buy other cars with even less to them.
 
Buy a motorcycle (BMW makes some of those too). But the 1 series just doesn't sound all that viable if that's the price point it'll be at. Start it in the upper teens (with a good 4 in it), running to mid 20's with a decent six, maybe upper 20's with a truly outstanding six and maybe, but only just..

How'd things go with Mr. Purves, Karl?

Lunch was great, as usual. The BMW offices in Woodcliff Lake are extremely impressive, as is the food they serve us during our visits. BTW, there was a BMW M3 with cladding, but otherwise a final production version, that pulled up out front during our visit...
 
Please see above to read Tom's responses to your questions if you haven't already.

YEA!! DIESELS!!! 1series, its iffy. YEA DIESELS!!
 
I've driven the 120d on GT4 and i like it better than the regular model. It just needs a few more horses.
 
I hope that we get
 
120i, 120d, 128d, 128i, 135i, 135d
 
323i, 323d, 328i 328d, 335i, 335d
 
x3, x3d, x35
 
x5, x5d
 
530i, 530d, 535i, 535d, 555i
 
750d 750i
 
-Cj

Karl,
 
Any word at all on the M3 sedan? He didn't say anything about it. I know the e36 the sedans made up 50% of the sales. In the USA the e46/e90 sedans easily outsell the coupes by a wide margin and when BMW introduced the ZHP package, sales of that version went off too. BMW must realize there is a market for the M3 sedan. It was beyond frustrating in 2003 that the M3 simply wasn't viable option for me and that was solely due to the coupe configuration.
 
BTW, I'm delighted with my Cooper S. The car's just plain fun. Every morning I hop in and have a good time driving to work; every night I zip home loving my time in the car. When will we see longterm updates on the cooper at Edmunds?

No official word on the M3 sedan, but I'm pretty sure it will happen. If nothing else, the cost of upgrading the car so dramatically over the non M version (V8 engine) means BMW will have to sell that many more to make a profit, and M3 sedan = increased sales.
 
The Mini Cooper long-term car is ordered, so the intro and long-term updates should start in about a month (as soon as the car gets here). We got an S model (of course) with manual and sport package, but little else to keep it at $25K.

You guys got my car essentially.
 
Good news about the M3 sedan. My fiancee thinks I'm nuts for contemplating a 60-70k sedan in a few years...

Whats the fuss about BMW not doing well, Karl? They are selling well and still hold the position of being the ultimate driving machine.
 
Any of my friend who wants to outgrow a Honda/Toyota wants to buy a BMW though he may not have any idea how much better the BMW handles.
 
BMW 1 series is definitely not a good proposition. They will screw up the brand image. remember Jaguar X type? You have the Mini, why bring a 1 series?
 
Bangle might have a bad reputation, but the 7 series is still selling well. And he is the most popular auto designer.

BMW 1 series is definitely not a good proposition. They will screw up the brand image. remember Jaguar X type?
 
X-type was a 3 competitor. Apples to Oranges. Jag was a luxury make, BMW is a performance/luxury make. BMWs success rested on the backs of the 2002, e30, e36, e46. The people who made BMW a sales success are getting left behind by the make they supported. The e90 is pale imitation of the e30, e36 and even e46. It's bigger than the e39 5 series. The car is no longer an entry level luxury sedan. It's certainly not a compact inside or out (at 3600 lbs, the e90 is flat out obese).
 

 You have the Mini, why bring a 1 series?
 
I've owned a few BMWs and now have an 07 mini Cooper S. It's fun. It's engaging. It's not even close to RWD. The mini is not a BMW replacement. It's a fun runabout but it lacks the very essence of BMW. I would step over my own mother to get my hands on a late model 4 place BMW (don't care how useful that back seat is, just that it's there) with 300 HP and a weight below 3000 lbs. The 1/2 series offers the promise of that but a weight of 3300 is more likely, sadly. The e90 can't possibly fit the bill.
 
For anyone that loves to drive small, light, RWD performance sedans (not sports cars, not coupes but sedans), the 1/2 could be a godsend.
  
Bangle might have a bad reputation, but the 7 series is still selling well. And he is the most popular auto designer.
 
don't care about car design. utterly worthless to me.

People want the 1 series because it will offer more than the Mini. The Mini is a small hatchback with cute utilitarian styling. I personally like it, but would not consider owning one.
 
I want a more sophisticated design and driving experience. I want a six cylinder engine. I want the more traditional coupe or sedan.
 
Additionally there is plenty of room in price between the Mini and the 1 series. They obviously cater to different people. Those that would consider a Mini think that the design and execution are fine.
 
There however, are plenty of us that want a more traditional design and structure.

Additionally there is plenty of room in price between the Mini and the 1 series. They obviously cater to different people.
 
Agreed. With a starting price of 18k, the Mini enters the market 12-13k below a 328i. A 1 series could start at 23-24k and not really hurt either the Mini or 328i.
 
Those that would consider a Mini think that the design and execution are fine.
 
That's not true. I ended up with a Mini because the e90 is a boring, fat pig. Should BMW liven up the e90 (tighter suspension, lose weight, better exhaust, lighter tires/rims, short-shift - essentially ZHP), I'll be more interested. I lived with the car for a year - it was banal. Design = who cares, it's a car, not something I look at. Execution works for now as it's just two of us and we have an A3 for transporting visitors.

Hey, Karl, if my memory is correct, you had a dinner meeting with Alan Mulally back on March 30th where you also presented our questions seeking his answers. Has he or his staff responded yet? It would be interesting to compare some of his answers with Tom Purves'.

Haven't gotten an official response from Mr. Mulally yet. Our company president is going to be talking to his people next week, and he has offered to provie a gentle reminder...