I'm looking forward to the comparison being posted. Should be an interesting read!

The Ford GT will trash it.

Rot-roh..........I sense another barrage of explosive posts / exchanges!
 
My 260hp Frontier gets the same kind of mileage, will dust this car and has a huge "trunk"!

I'd say the GT is making other, more pleasant sounds above 4000rpm. mmmmm....v8.

I think C&D got 23mpg with their test car which isnt great but still better than the sad 19mpg you guys got. As for "half the mileage" of the Altima, thats interesting because C&D got about 25mpg with their Altima hybrid from what I recall which is hardly double the Aura GL's pathetic performance. Are you saying you guyes got 38mpg in the Altima hybrid? That is pretty impressive.
 
There is little reason to get an Aura GL or Altima hybrid over a four cylinder car in this class. hey, at least the Aura is available in more than 8 states.

The Camry Hybrid, OTOH, has consistently posted above 30 MPG overall in mixed driving, when tested by basically every publication I've read - from R/T to CR to Car and Driver...
 
Perhaps it, being available in 50 states... is worth getting over the 4 cylinder variants in this class?
 
~alpha

My wifes uncle just got 38mpg with his 4cyl Accord on a recent trip from DC up to us on the Jersey shore - driving 65 - 70 and, this included a half hour - 45 minute delay in stop and go traffic due to an accident.

What is the point of this car? Marketing exercise? 19-23 mpg in a 4-door sedan that buzzes its way to 60 in 9.4 secs (C&D May '07)? As they point out in the article, both the 4-cylinder Accord and Altima are cheaper, faster and more fuel efficient. And they probably don't have misaligned interior bits. I look forward to reading the Edmunds comparo, Karl.

Hello, GM! Why spend money in this car! 19 to 23 mpg with Hybrid technology w/ a 4 cyl engine. There is something wrong with this picture. I will call a complete lack of engineering and research. They just dumped the parts and slap a hybrid badge.

The Camry Hyrbid is the only mid-sized full hybrid to get, period. As 1487 stated, the Altima hyrbid is only available in a handful of states repleat with hand me down technology. To me, that's all about marketing and bragging as now Nissan can claim "we have a 35mpg hyrbid." I don't know how Edmunds curiously managed only 19 mpg out of their Aura GL but we know Karl will do anything to try and prove a point to 1487 so perhaps the testers were encouraged to go WOT at every green light.
 
And before you guys stone GM for making a mild hyrbid system with below average MPG, my 2.3L 4 cylinder Mazda3 (4 spd auto) has a lifetime average of 18 mpg with 29,600 miles on the clock. In the automotive world, Toyota and Honda are the only two companies who've figured out how to sip fuel.

"I will call a complete lack of engineering and research. They just dumped the parts and slap a hybrid badge."
 
Wow, I guess you're a high level engineer or executive? It's simply a cost to benefit ratio. Should the customer spend an extra $4-5k initially and drive 200k to break even, or does he spend less than $1k and break even during the first year or so? Unfortunately, the Epsilon platform is pretty heavy which makes a four cylinder work very hard to move all that mass- belt drive altenator or not. Accord, Altima and Camry 4 cyl models all weigh hundreds of pounds less than the Aura so it makes sense for them to sip fuel at a lower rate in regular and hybrid forms.

"Bottom line -- it's not a very sophisticated system. However, if you ask GM, "Hey, Toyota has multiple hybrids on the market and Nissan just introduced an Altima Hybrid. What are you doing in this area?" their response would be to point at the Aura Hybrid"
 
Hey Karl, since you're such an inquisitive and unbiased journalist, consider asking this question to any other manufacturer besides Toyota? Since you can so easily and accurately speak for GM, please enlighten us as to what the other companies have to say about their efforts in this area. Ofcourse Ford and Nissan simply buy Prius parts for their offerings but let's see what THEY themselves are actually doing.

Follow the posted speed limits and I think 20mpg in the Aura Hybrid should be achievable. I know I can usually hit 20mpg in my wife's Acura MDX that way.

anythingbutgm- are you talking to me in reference to my POS car? If you are, it doesn't work. As ISKCH said, "complete lack of engineering and research."

???

"I don't know how Edmunds curiously managed only 19 mpg out of their Aura GL but we know Karl will do anything to try and prove a point to 1487 so perhaps the testers were encouraged to go WOT at every green light."
 
I was not a driver on the loops, and the guys doing the driving have (believe it or not) never heard of 1487.
 
"Hey Karl, since you're such an inquisitive and unbiased journalist, consider asking this question to any other manufacturer besides Toyota? Since you can so easily and accurately speak for GM, please enlighten us as to what the other companies have to say about their efforts in this area. Ofcourse Ford and Nissan simply buy Prius parts for their offerings but let's see what THEY themselves are actually doing."
 
I can tell you what THEY are doing. THEY are producing hybrid that get better than 20 mpg. THEY are doing more than slapping a badge on an otherwise "weak" car while trying to cash in on hybrid hype. THEY were smart enough to realize that licensing proven technology that ACTUALLY WORKS to improve mileage is a better idea than slapping a glorified starter on a car and calling it a "hybrid."
 
Wow, I guess I am pretty smart. Either that or someone else who couldn't answer these questions themself is pretty dumb.

Isn't 1487 a scary movie that's out now?

who hasnt heard of me? we need to correct that ASAP.
 
"I can tell you what THEY are doing. THEY are producing hybrid that get better than 20 mpg. THEY are doing more than slapping a badge on an otherwise "weak" car while trying to cash in on hybrid hype. THEY were smart enough to realize that licensing proven technology that ACTUALLY WORKS to improve mileage is a better idea than slapping a glorified starter on a car and calling it a "hybrid." "
 
licensing Toyota technology is the easy way out and who really cares when the Altima is only available in 8 states. As I stated, C&D only got 25 or 26mpg in their test of the Altima hybrid and they got 27mpg in their Vue GL hybrid test. With those types of numbers the Altima hybrid isnt all that impressive. Again, if you guys got 38mpg in the altima that is mighty impressive considering what others averaged. Sounds like a miracle to me.
 
Also, as Chavis said other manufacturers arent doign squat when it comes to hybrids. Gm has one system on the market (admittedly mild) and one on the way this fall for their SUVs. As most of us know (believe it or not this info isnt new) that the BAS system doesnt not yield stellar mileage gains and the two mode system is GM's true high cost alternative to the hybrid synergy drive. Maybe GM can learn something from the hybrid systems at Hyundai, DC, BMW and DC. Oh that right, they dont even have anything on the market yet. Still waiting for a harsh expose on their hybrid (non)efforts similar to this latest round of "GM is the Devil" post by KB. Guessing I wont see it anytime soon. Its amusing that one could praise Nissan's half ass effort when two short years ago their CEO was saying hybrids werent a part of Nissan's plans and the technology wasnt something they felt was reliable enough to invest in. Last time I checked the first real NIssan designed hybrid model wont be on sale until 2009 or 2010.
 
glorified starter? That is funny, very C&D-like in fact. The BAS system is a little more complicated than that and I would also like to know what the actual mileage figures are for all three cars per Edmunds testing. 19mpg seems a little low, even for the "glorified starter" equipped Aura. I also believe a car has a hybrid badge "slapped" on its rear if it uses electricity to assiste with propulsion and to save fuel. I think that is why Saturn is allowed to use the hybrid badge. Are you now saying the Aura GL isnt a hybrid?
 
As for 19mpg, that is according to your test results and those are the worst results I've seen so far.

whats also interesting is that DC and BMW joined up with the lagging General on the RWD two mode system and will be applying it to some of their vehicles. The first Chrysler vehicles with this system wont be out until next year while MB and BMW havent even given any specifics on when they will have two mode vehicles for sale. The first GM models with this system will be out this fall.
 
The BAS system needs to be applied to a lightweight car with a small displacement engine. It is of limited effectiveness in a 3600lb Saturn.
 
The Camry hybrid is the only one worth getting over a 4 cylinder, it's really that simple. Paying $26k+ for an Altima hybrid that gets slightly better mileage than the 2.5 model isnt a smart buy to me.

"I was not a driver on the loops, and the guys doing the driving have (believe it or not) never heard of 1487. "
  
It's called sarcasm...
  
"I can tell you what THEY are doing. THEY are producing hybrid that get better than 20 mpg. THEY are doing more than slapping a badge on an otherwise "weak" car while trying to cash in on hybrid hype. THEY were smart enough to realize that licensing proven technology that ACTUALLY WORKS to improve mileage is a better idea than slapping a glorified starter on a car and calling it a "hybrid."
  
That's called meaningless rhetoric.
  
No facts or proofs to back up anything within those quotation marks. First, let's define "THEY." Who is "THEY"? Not Ford, Mazda, VW, Hyundai, Honda, Subaru, Chrysler, BMW, or MB. Toyota is the only company that has good hybrids out RIGHT NOW (GM/DC/BMW's two-mode system, on paper, should be even better and more versatile). Borrowing their stuff doesn't count for squat, anyone can do that.
  
BTW, since you moonlight as GM's marketing rep, the GreenLines are actually known as mild hybrids, not weak.
  
"...to improve mileage is a better idea than slapping a glorified starter on a car and calling it a 'hybrid.' "
  
Okay, let's define what the word hybrid means (as in gas/electric): Petroleum Electric Hybrid Vehicle (PEHV)- is a vehicle using an on-board rechargeable engery storage system and a fueled power source for vehicle propulsion. Does or does not the Aura GreenLine satisfy this criteria? Perhaps I'm just too dumb to answer that one...

The Camry Hybrid certainly leads the pack here. I'll be curious to read the Edmunds comparo.
 
It's funny how not even a year ago Hybrids were panned as useless, overhyped fads that would never take off. They were supposedly stopgaps until more economical, practical ideas came to market like fuel cells. But now that GM has them, they're cool... lol.

"Borrowing their stuff doesn't count for squat, anyone can do that."
 
Is that really the best you guys can come up with. "Oh, sure, the Altima gets better MPG than the Aura, but Nissan just copied Toyota!"
 
Give me a break. Every corporation in every industry copies each other. If it's a good idea there's nothing wrong with copying it. In fact, not copying an effective technology and going with something ineffective, just for the sake of "not copying" someone is utter lunacy.
 
So every company using fuel injection right now is just a copy cat of the first company to use it? Same for seat belts or ABS or crush zones or cruise control or...oh, you get the point.
 
And guess what, the consumer who wants to drive a midsize hybrid sedan with better than 25 mpg can find one at the Nissan dealer and not at the Aura dealer.
 
That, folks, is called the bottom line.

"Isn't 1487 a scary movie that's out now?"
 
No, thats 1408. It cant be half as scary as some of the "logic" being employed here.
 
It is absolutely pointless to compare the Aura GL to the camry hybrid. Before reading one word of the comparo we know the Aura will finish dead last, especially if it registered 19mpg. It's not a full hybrid system and its essentially competing against two cars with the same full hybrid propulsion system that are designed to yield better mileage for the bargain price of $27k. If the Camry hybrid was cheaper it would be a no brainer, and compared to the similarly priced Camry models it is a no brainer. If you only concern is saving money you would be better off with a much cheaper four cylinder that will give you about 24-25mpg in mixed driving.
 
Just wondering, what good is the Altima hybrid to people living in the 42 states where it cant be purchased? Am I the only one impressed with Nissan's heavy commitment to hybrid tech?

"Just wondering, what good is the Altima hybrid to people living in the 42 states where it cant be purchased?"
 
Much better than the 19 mpg Aura availabe in all 50 states.

anythngbutgm, honestly, just stay away from computers for awhile If you can't go to a blog and not bash GM. your biased opinion doesn't help anyone. Pick up a new hobby like sewing or basket weaving.

"Give me a break. Every corporation in every industry copies each other. If it's a good idea there's nothing wrong with copying it. In fact, not copying an effective technology and going with something ineffective, just for the sake of "not copying" someone is utter lunacy. "
 
Karl you dont get it, this is not about simply copying. Nissan has licensed the Toyota technology and put it in the Altima. They have not engineered squat in terms of a hybrid system. As I stated, they will not have their own tech out for 2-3 years. The point is Nissan does not have the ability in 2007 to build its own hybrid and to me that counts for something. I dont have a problem with them doing this to rush a hybrid to market (for lucky people in 8 states) but I do get a little annoyed when people put them on a pedastal vs GM and others when they havent designed anything. I would give them SOME credit if they even bothered to copy the Toyota system with their own engineering work. They didnt.
 
"And guess what, the consumer who wants to drive a midsize hybrid sedan with better than 25 mpg can find one at the Nissan dealer and not at the Aura dealer. "
 
As long as they live in the 8 states where it's sold, you are 100% correct. BTW, the current Malibu and G6 should average about 24mpg in mixed driving and considering how much cheaper they are than the Altima hybrid I would think they are viable choices (just like Accord/Camry 4's) for people looking to save gas AND money.

1487, I'm sorry, but your argument strikes me as more of an excuse. So the Aura should be in a class alone, simply because it is not a real hybrid? Give me a break. Also, the Camry Hybrid is not priced at 27K and lacking in equipment. It's got a full complement of safety features, including VDIM, and convenience features, like Keyless Go, autoclimate control, etc. Compared to the Camry XLE 4 and Altima 2.5SL which mirror it in equipment, the premium isn't really that high. And, of course, many features on the Camry HSD are simply unavailable on the lesser Aura Hybrid.

"1487, I'm sorry, but your argument strikes me as more of an excuse. So the Aura should be in a class alone, simply because it is not a real hybrid? Give me a break."
 
I dont get where you are coming from with the excuses thing. First of all I wouldnt buy the Aura because the mileage gain isnt worth the loss in performance in my book. I am fully aware of what the camry offers, my point is that if you want to save MONEY (which many of us do) you can save more by going with a 4 cylinder family sedan. Toyota makes you buy a bunch of features that have nothing to do with savign fuel just to save fuel. It makes no sense, but I imagine its the only way they can make any money on a hybrid camry. I already stated that compared to comparable Camry models of the same price the hybrid camry makes some sense.
 
"Much better than the 19 mpg Aura availabe in all 50 states."
 
You still havent said what mileage you got with the other two cars so I assume that "twice the mileage" statement was typical hyperbole on your part. Also, I noted that other tests have gotten better than 19mpg so I'm not sure that we can take that to the bank as the last word on Aura mileage. The Aura GL isnt a smart buy for anyone looking to save money, that isnt in dispute. You argued earlier that GM is making half assed efforts in hybrid compared to their advanced competitors like Nissan. I had a problem with that statement and I explained why that was the case. Hopefully you see my point now. The Altima is a not getting any props from me because its not available nationwide and Nissan simply plopped a Toyota system in a a few thousand altimas for a quick fix. Bottom line is that Nissan and GM have some catching up to do, but GM is way ahead of Nissan on the catching up. By the time Nisssan launches its first real in house hybrid GM should have a dozen or so hybrids on the market. Honda has more or less abandoned widespread use technology as a mainstream powertrain option, they are moving on to diesels and will have only one hybrid for 2008.
 
That, folks, is called the bottom line.

I get 19 mpg in my non-hybrid V6 SUV.

Oh, and I used to get mid-20s consistently in my non-hybrid 2002 Altima.
 
The Saturn Aura is a loser all-around.

Maybe GM should have adopted the "Hybrid fad" and applied it to something a bit more managable like the Aveo?
 
Look at Toyota, they started off small with the first Prius. And Honda with the Insight and then the HCH. All those were designed and built with a purpose in mind. Not to be flashy, not to be sporty, just achieve significant increases in gas mileage in a livable package. Both companies started out small and worked their way up to those Camry's, HL's and Lexus models that are on the market today. Not overnight either.
 
Here we have a midsize built to skip over those "baby steps" and go right after the Camry hybrid, right out of the gate. And it can't even achieve better mileage than a V8 powered Impala... So it's missing the entire reason to go hybrid in the first place.
 
GM needs to do a lot more homework before trying to graduate to the big leagues.

Mr Editor- Nissan didn't borrow or copy anything, they purchased the ENTIRE hybrid synergy drive from Toyota and placed into the Altima. Why is this simple fact so hard for you to accept? Copy implies that you adapt some sort of existing technology and modify it enough to patent it as your own. This however is essentially a cut and paste procedure. I give all the props in the world to Toyota for Hybrid Synergy Drive- no kudos whatsoever go to Nissan. What did they design or engineer? NOTHING. All they had to do was recompile the PCM code to speak nicely with their 2.5L four banger.
  
"Give me a break. Every corporation in every industry copies each other. If it's a good idea there's nothing wrong with copying it. In fact, not copying an effective technology and going with something ineffective, just for the sake of "not copying" someone is utter lunacy. "
  
This is the most ridiculous thing you've written in a while. First off, most shared techonology comes from a supplier (Bosch, Delphi, denso, etc). Carmakers rebrand this stuff with acronyms and such to make it their own so 9 times out of 10, one car maker isn't copying from the other. Simply, they both are customers of the same product (ie a Bosch stability control system). However, when we're talking about something that a car manu has designed and engineered IN HOUSE, buying it and then installing it another's car- we're in a whole different ball game.
  
What is utter lunecy is how your tunnel vision prevents you from seeing what's just around the corner. Is not Saturn planning to release a two-mode FULL hybrid Vue at a premium over the cheaper Vue GL? Why copy when you could ENGINEER a system that is fundamentally superior to the current king of the hill? HSD is designed for city driving and lots of stop and go. For city dwellers, this is fine. On the highway, all that stuff is dead weight. You're follow the leader mentality won't win any wars, sorry. Also, how much money is Nissan making on the Altima hybrid by the time they pay Toyota? If they aren't doing it for profits what could they possibly be doing it for? Marketing and recognition.
  
BUT WAIT- didn't Mr Contradiction himself blame evil GM for doing the same thing just for the headline "We make hybrids, plain and simple. Get off our back and dig no deeper"? Oh the irony....

"GM needs to do a lot more homework before trying to graduate to the big leagues."
 
Perhaps you should do some homework before posting things that show your lack of knowledge. Read this:
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=120687

"Perhaps you should do some homework before posting things that show your lack of knowledge. Read this:
  
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=120687"
 
"- First Impressions:
Three companies are better than one for developing new technology."
 
You're right , 5 ton V8 powered Tahoes ARE baby steps in GM world. For a company that's drunk on V8 pigs and dependant on SUV's for sales, it only makes sense that they stick with what they know.
 
And it only makes the Aura hybrid look that much more pathetic.

From what I've read about the Aura hybrid from EDMUNDS and CAR AND DRIVER, it seems safe to say the Aura Hybrid is a joke! If GM do not have good hybrid technology, why not wait to develop one.....or buy the technology like Nissan did? It's silly for manufacturers release inferior products just to be in the game!
 
(Ford made a similar mistake when they released the 500, knowing that they didn't have a good engine to compete with the Avalon and 300C. I just don't know why they didn't wait until the new Duratec engine was ready! All their rushing achieved was to spoil the 500's name!)

Slightly OT, but is it me, or do the Aura Hybrid's alloys look remarkably similar to those offered on the Fusion?

anythingbu,
 
You are clueless, they are applying the tech to the SUVs since they use the most fuel. It actually makes perfect sense when you think about it. Toyota has chosen to leave hybrid tech off their biggest gas guzzlers for whatever reason but GM is taking a different approach. The two mode system is supposed to yield a 25% increase in economy which means a hybrid tahoe would be getting better real world mileage than 90% of the "efficient" V6 crossovers on the market. You could get the space and towing of a large SUV with better mileage than an RDX. Sounds like a good idea to me.
 
Your name pretty much explains why your here and your faulty logic proves that you are little more than a biased anti-Gm mouthpiece with little regard for facts.

I've seen this pattern many times before. I've been posting on edmunds.com since early in the TownHall days and the more things change the more they remain the same. The posters who are full of opinion but light on facts reiterate the same bandwagon type catch phrases over and over again. #1, if you don't care for a particular brand or make, why even waste time posting in its blog? I've never habitually visited forums or blogs of cars I can't stand. Logically speaking, that's completely illogical. #2, those same overly opinioned posters over time lack technical knowledge of the cars in general, marketing/product planning and manufacturing processes. Those two traits have been consistent throughout.
  
"(Ford made a similar mistake when they released the 500, knowing that they didn't have a good engine to compete with the Avalon and 300C. I just don't know why they didn't wait until the new Duratec engine was ready! All their rushing achieved was to spoil the 500's name!)"
  
Firstly, an engine is but ONE part of a car. NO HIGH VOLUME CAR will be put on hold to wait for an engine. I won't waste time listing all of the newly introduced underpowered vehicles released in the last 5 -10 years. Cars are planned YEARS ahead of their release schedules. New parts can be delayed during development however if the car is slated for production it will go into production. The logistics behind moving to new platforms would obviously overwhelm you limited view of the subject matter. Simple facts like this should not have to be explained and I assumed were elementary.
  
"You're right, 5 ton V8 powered Tahoes ARE baby steps in GM world. For a company that's drunk on V8 pigs and dependant on SUV's for sales, it only makes sense that they stick with what they know. And it only makes the Aura hybrid look that much more pathetic."
  
Where do I begin...??? What does the VEHICLE have to do with the HYBRID system? Theoretically, you'd be able to adapt such a system to any platform large enough to accept the aparatus. Cadillac's rep has said every product in their future has the possibility of a hybrid so that's 3 seperate architectures right there. As 1487 stated, it makes sense to start with the heaviest most fuel thirsty vehicles first as they will usually see the largest improvement in fuel savings. Also, as the aforementioned article states, GM has applied to the technology to mass transit buses. As a HUGE supporter of mass transit, I thought this was a novel idea. Here in Philly, we have approximately 29 New Flyer Hybrid 40 ft low floor buses with the technology.
  
Full Hybrid- save lots of gas and spend more money.
Mild Hybrid- save a little gas and spend a little money. I already know everyone's response so I'll wait for the article to go live before I try and figure out how Edmond's car averaged such low MPG (if they are any clues in the text).

This thread has little logic, and much personal attacks to offset weak arguments.
Many emotionaly charged words are used, which means your writing won't convert anyone.
I find it funny. Continue. =D

Actually, Karl, I don't think the last Accord Hybrid and the current LS 600h used hybrid technology solely for marketing purposes. I think both used it as a performance enhancement instead of a fuel economy enhancement. Lexus basically combined their LS 460 V8 engine and hybrid technology to produce the power of a V12 while offering the fuel economy of a V8 (instead of developing a V12 like BMW and Mercedes). Honda did a similar thing: using the technology to produce the power of a larger V6 while getting slightly better economy than the stand-alone 3.0 V6. I see nothing wrong with such use of hybrid technology.
The problem is that hybrids have been marketed cars that get ultra-high fuel economy (and not a way of increasing power while maintaining normal fuel economy). So regular folks expected the Accord Hybrid to offer Prius-like economy, overlooking the car's performance. If Honda had marketed the vehicle properly for what it was, they would have had better sales. Lexus better do that for the LS 600h!
 
On the other hand, the Aura Hybrid does not offer high power/performance nor high fuel economy. It just doesn't seem worth buying.
 
Anythingbutgm, I also think it makes sense for GM to apply hybrid technology to their full-size vehicles. However, they have to use proper hybrids here: "light hybrids" will not work.

"Lexus basically combined their LS 460 V8 engine and hybrid technology to produce the power of a V12 while offering the fuel economy of a V8 (instead of developing a V12 like BMW and Mercedes). Honda did a similar thing: using the technology to produce the power of a larger V6 while getting slightly better economy than the stand-alone 3.0 V6."
 
True...BUT -- by putting hybrid components (which tend to weigh a lot) in both cars they offset the performance gains with increased weight. Result, neither the Accord Hybrid or the SL 600h are quicker than the non-hybrid versions. They do make more power, but their actual performance is the same or worse than the non-hybrid versions, and the same goes for fuel mileage (again, because of weight). We tested the LS 600h and it's 0-60 time was .1 of a second SLOWER than the LS 460, and quarter-mile was identical. Interestingly, the LS 600h did handle a little better, and it stopped better (figure the higher weight may have allowed the LS 600h to bite harder before locking up and triggering ABS). Compare the figures here:
 
LS 460
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=119408/pageId=118809
 
LS 600h
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486/pageId=122610
 
So the lesson learned here is: you can add power with a hybrid drivetrain, but good luck on adding PERFORMANCE. You're better off just giving the non-hybrid version a more aggressive tune, even if it means potentially worse mileage (which people buying the LS 600h or Accord Hybrid supposedly didn't care about in the first place, right?). Observed fuel mileage on the LS 600h? A rocking .8 mpg better than the LS 460.

Thanks a lot for the insight, Karl! Wow!
 
I had never thought of the weight issue of hybrids. There is absolutely no reason to spend the extra $30k to get the LS600h when one can get the LS460! I'm beginning to wonder why Lexus released this car at all....who are they kidding?
(The only advantages I see for the LS600h are the AWD platform and emissions. But those are still not worth the extra close-to-$30k. Lexus should have simply added AWD as an option of the LS460. If one really cares about emissions, they should get the LS460 and a Prius instead!)

A quick question, Karl: why do hybrids always use CVTs? Are regular automatics unsuitable? Could a hybrid use a manual transmission?

As soon as I saw the term "weak" hybrid, I knew a slugfest was coming!
 
Great entertainment!
 
Hmm, a manaul tranny hybrid -- that sounds intriguing; I wonder if it's possible.

Hybrids use CVTs because they are theoretically the most fuel-efficient tranny. That said, I had a 2002 Mini Cooper with a CVT and the tranny sucked all the life out of the drivetrain. This resulted in having to floor the car constantly just to feel like you were keeping up with traffic. This resulted in around 24 mpg (in a 115 horsepower, 2,500 lbs car!!). So, while CVTs potentially add mileage, if they make the car feel so weak that you have to floor them constantly just to get it to move they have the opposite effect.
 
However, some companies (Nissan) do CVTs much than others (Chrysler). As usual, final execution is everything.

Granted, the Aura Hybrid is pretty low tech. And the rattles are "Thats-so-Saturn " (like Edmunds' Vue test, and both my '03 Lemon-Ions).
 
But: Does the Aura hybrid shudder and lurch like the to-be-discontinued Honda Accord Hybrid does while driving around town?
   
Perhaps at moment Toyota (and possibly GM with their upcoming 2-mode system) are only ones who figured out how to get the electric-gasoline motors to play nice with each other.

"Anythingbutgm, I also think it makes sense for GM to apply hybrid technology to their full-size vehicles. However, they have to use proper hybrids here: "light hybrids" will not work."
 
And I agree with this, never said it was a bad idea. But when you have a 25ft land yacht like a Tahoe, it doesn't seem to impressive to improve mileage 25% when the thing gets 12mpg in the first place... Plus, and a HUGE plus here, with gas prices lingering on the 4 dollar mark, do we actually believe that people are lining up out the door to buy a behemoth like a Tahoe any more? Doubt it big time. Come on up to NE sometime, you're getting up to 15 grand off these tanks cause they can't move em...
 
With all the hype that the GM boyz are plugging with the GMT900 hybrids here, you are completely missing the fact that GM failed to deliver with the Aura-h. I think that is a better place to start if you're going to win over the environmentalist crowd who don't buy big full size utes to begin with.
 
LOL, I love it when the "Bias" comments start flying, talk about a cop out...

"Anythingbutgm, I also think it makes sense for GM to apply hybrid technology to their full-size vehicles. However, they have to use proper hybrids here: "light hybrids" will not work."
 
Guys you need to read what we are saying. It was clearly stated that the GMT900s will be using a totally different two mody hybrid system that can run on electric power under certain circumstances just like Toyota's system. This is a far more complex and expensive system than the BAS system in the Aura GL and it will yield significant performance gain. I dont think BMW and MB would have signed up to use the tech if it wasn't impressive. Its a smart move on GM's part because the media will be hard pressed to criticize any tech that is used by the German manufacturers and they got those two companies to help defray development costs.
 
"Plus, and a HUGE plus here, with gas prices lingering on the 4 dollar mark, do we actually believe that people are lining up out the door to buy a behemoth like a Tahoe any more? "
 
Again clueless, you keep exposing your bias and lack of knowledge about the issues at hand. With the hybrid system the Tahoe will be able to meet or exceed the mileage of crossovers like the CX-9, Pilot, etc. The point is that if the market for crossovers is expanding partially because they get 4-5mpg better mileage than BOF SUVs the Tahoe hybrid makes a lot of sense. You will get the same towing capacity and space and pay no mileage penalty vs a smaller V6 powered crossover. Sales of large SUVs are down, but the GM models (which are the newest and best) are still selling relatively well considering the price of gas.
 
I dont know what part of the NE you live in but SUVs are still plentiful in this part of the country. Sure there are incentives on large SUVs, but the largest incentives are on the import models like the Sequoia which are totally outdated and uncompetitive. I see tons of current generation Tahoes and Escalades on the road.
 
"LOL, I love it when the "Bias" comments start flying, talk about a cop out..."
 
You fail to understand there is no need to "cop out" when conversing with someone making such lame arguments. Trust me. You cop out when you have no response to clever or accurate statements. That's never a problem when responding to you.
 
"On the other hand, the Aura Hybrid does not offer high power/performance nor high fuel economy. It just doesn't seem worth buying. "
 
At this point I think that fact is well documented, the horse is dead. However, I'm sure that wont stop you or anythingbutgm from continuing to beat it.
 
Here are the basic facts- a) The BAS system doesnt yield enough fuel economy gains to be worthwhile.
 
b) GM, Toyota, Honda and Ford are ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to hybrids with Toyota being in 1st place by a long shot. There has been a ton of discussion about GM's "failure" in terms of the Aura GL but little mention of GM's competitor's failure to have any hybrids on sale now or in the near future. GM will have a its Synergy Drive competitor on the market within the next 4-5 months. Most of the rest of the industry is years away from anything on that level.

"Again clueless, you keep exposing your bias and lack of knowledge about the issues at hand.
 
Clueless about what? The fact that there are 15 grand rebates on the Tahoe and it's 12 other siblings? Or that we are living in days of 4 dollar gallon gas and just like the gas crunch of 1980, body on frame SUV's are going the way of the Dinosaur for more preferred crossovers? You are clearly the clueless one if you think these beasts still have the clout they once had.
 
 With the hybrid system the Tahoe will be able to meet or exceed the mileage of crossovers like the CX-9, Pilot, etc.
 
You state this like it's a fact.
 
Yes, it's with "bias and lack of knowledge" that I am pessimistic that a 5 ton behemoth is going to lure people away from crossovers like the Pilot and CX-9. It is with "bias and lack of knowledge" that "25% improvement" as stated in GM's press release is NOT over 20mpg like those crossovers you mention.
 
I await the backpeddling you'll make when these new trucks don't deliver as promised.
 
"Sales of large SUVs are down, but the GM models (which are the newest and best) - DEBATABLE - are still selling relatively well considering the price of gas." - and falling...
 
"Sure there are incentives on large SUVs, but the largest incentives are on the import models like the Sequoia - 3500 off here - which are totally outdated and uncompetitive - And awaiting next generations - I see tons of current generation Tahoes and Escalades on the road. " - compared to crossovers, they are rare...
 
"You fail to understand there is no need to "cop out" when conversing with someone making such lame arguments. Trust me. You cop out when you have no response to clever or accurate statements."
 
"However, I'm sure that wont stop you or anythingbutgm from continuing to beat it."
 
See this is where you lose me pal. You're arrogance and your ego are doing nothing to debate the facts here. MIxed in with never ending pro-GM propoganda and a rehearsed sales pitch. Frankly, in the core of it you come off as a glorified crybaby when somebody says something negative about a GM product.
 
Who else would defend a 19mpg hybrid...
 
"That's never a problem when responding to you."
 
Do me a favor and don't respond then.

"Clueless about what? The fact that there are 15 grand rebates on the Tahoe and it's 12 other siblings? "
 
any proof? Show us where GM is offering $15k on the 2007 Tahoe. I bet your salary that you cant produce any evidence. But that isnt surprising considering the source.
 
"Or that we are living in days of 4 dollar gallon gas and just like the gas crunch of 1980, body on frame SUV's are going the way of the Dinosaur for more preferred crossovers? You are clearly the clueless one if you think these beasts still have the clout they once had.
  
 With the hybrid system the Tahoe will be able to meet or exceed the mileage of crossovers like the CX-9, Pilot, etc.
  
You state this like it's a fact.
  
Yes, it's with "bias and lack of knowledge" that I am pessimistic that a 5 ton behemoth is going to lure people away from crossovers like the Pilot and CX-9. It is with "bias and lack of knowledge" that "25% improvement" as stated in GM's press release is NOT over 20mpg like those crossovers you mention.
  
I await the backpeddling you'll make when these new trucks don't deliver as promised. "
 
Its undeniable that BOF SUVs are declining in popularity. No one is arguing otherwise. NO LARGE V6 CROSSOVER GETS OVER 20MPG IN COMBINED DRIVING. What in the world are you talking about? Have you any clue about the vehicles being discussed here? Apparently you do not. In real world driving most V6 crossovers average 16-19mpg in mixed driving. A Tahoe will give you 13-14mpg and we can expect that to increase to 17-18mpg with the hybrid system. Seems to me that puts the 5400lb Tahoe on equal footing with lighter V6 powered crossovers.
 
BTW, 5400 lbs isnt 5 tons in case you were wondering.
 
"compared to crossovers, they are rare... "
 
check the sales figures before commenting further. The Tahoe still outsells most large crossovers on the market. IN fact it still outsells GM's own Acadia although that may change in the near future if the Acadia keeps gaining momentum. BOF SUVS are far from rare even though they are not as popular as they once were.
 
"MIxed in with never ending pro-GM propoganda and a rehearsed sales pitch. Frankly, in the core of it you come off as a glorified crybaby when somebody says something negative about a GM product. "
 
How ironic from a propoganda master named "anythingbutgm". Yes you are the epitome of objectivity and reason. No wonder I respect what you say so much. The bottom line is that you are an individual who is an expert at GM bashing but knows little about cars or the industry as a whole. If you want to call anyone who stands up to your lies a "crybaby" that is your choice but it doesnt change the facts. You started off saying the Aura GL doesnt deliver great mileage which is accurate. You should have quit while you were ahead because nothing you said after that was accurate or reasonable.

"any proof? Show us where GM is offering $15k on the 2007 Tahoe. I bet your salary that you cant produce any evidence. But that isnt surprising considering the source. "
  
http://www.gm.com/automotive/vehicle_shopping/currentoffers/NE_Consumer_IOU.html?
 
The 15 grand ads are radio, I'm not going to waste time searching 100 different dealer sites to show any more proof.
 
I'm done.

anythingbutgm,
What is your salary, and where should 1487 send the check?
 
Was that annual, monthly, or weekly, salary?

These aura discussions are epic! BTW, why would 1487 send a check, I didn't see 15k on that link?

I know, but facts don't count.

anythngbutgm did you eat paint chips as a kid? The things you post are rediculous. I mean honestly, I feel like finding a tall building to jump off of every time I read one of your posts.
 
Learn more about GM products before you began to bash them, and come up with better supporting arguments for the negative things you post.
 
Your biased opinion helps no one, and you've made yourself look foolish.

"m done."
 
You promise? Christmas has come early this year.
 
"I know, but facts don't count."
 
Not to anythingbutgm at least. Thats the beauty of the internet, everyone is an instant expert on anything.

I love it, what a piece of work... Still going huh?
 
"You promise? Christmas has come early this year. "
 
What are you twelve? Resorting to childishness I see...
 
So let's review the facts Mr. Salesman. Since you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, I pointed out to you a source. A damn source that showed not 15 grand, but 7 thousand dollars off of a Tahoe or one of the many gaspigs in the GM stable. 7 thousand dollars is not pocket change, that is throwing a big wad of cash on the hood to move your outdated behemoths off the lot. It is not the sign of a stong seller, is it Mr salesman?
 
"Sure there are incentives on large SUVs, but the largest incentives are on the import models like the Sequoia which are totally outdated and uncompetitive. "
 
2000 bucks on those "outdated" Sequoias here....
http://www.automotive.com/2007/12/toyota/sequoia/rebates/index.html
 
 I also stated that my source is radio ads and if I could come up with a page to follow it, I would. Guess what? I don't pay that close attention to GarbageMotors ads when they're on the airwaves. They're also offering up to 15 grand on leftover Cadillac STS models too. Don't believe me, tough. But,you really think 7 thousand dollars is negligible? Of course not...
 
I don't place bets either, so I have nothing to prove to a little worm like yourself...
 
Let's continue:
"NO LARGE V6 CROSSOVER GETS OVER 20MPG IN COMBINED DRIVING. "
 
Kind of a broad comment there Mr salesman, have you personally owned every single V6 crossover on the market? My that's quite a feat. I know plenty of people getting 21, 23 even 26 on theirs. Unless you drive like Mario Andretti, over 20 is easily achieved. I get 19 with my MDX on a regular occasion, but since we didn't clear those results with you, they must be false huh? Hell, I know someone with one of your Cheapuinox utes and their pulling 21, how can that be? Oh wait, it's a GM so it's OK...
 
"A Tahoe will give you 13-14mpg and we can expect that to increase to 17-18mpg with the hybrid system."
 
Until they spend 100 bucks to fill up that 30 gallon tank... Yeah, people are going to be lining up to get into that situation. I said... "with gas prices lingering on the 4 dollar mark, do we actually believe that people are lining up out the door to buy a behemoth like a Tahoe any more? "
 
You follow it up with "Again clueless, you keep exposing your bias and lack of knowledge about the issues at hand..."
 
Again Mr. salesman, you honestly believe the Tahoe and its siblings are selling well and will continue into even the next decade? That's my point, and it is far from "clueless", it's an opinion. You even said it your self, "Sales of large SUVs are down". And they'll continue to go down because gas is not getting any cheaper and people are learning you can get just as much utility out of a crossover than you can with a Tahoe. That is an opinion, not bias, not lack of knowledge, and not "clueless". A hybrid tahoe is still a Tahoe, any which way you cut it. People looking to cut gas costs are not buying F'n Tahoes.
 
And seriously, do you think that by acting like a complete A-hole makes your points come across any stronger? Cause out of all your posts that's what stood out the strongest. You're bility to be a complete A-hole instead of an intelligent, respectful contributor, as always. Seriously man, you don't debate well, you force your opinion down throats like its some sort of truth. And your truth and the real truth dont line up, somewhere along the lines it gets twisted into some pro-1742 opinion that gets ground up with a bunch of whiney little insults until it eventually makes it on to the screen as a rant. A "How dare you say anything bad about MY GM!!! rant". Frankly, I don't bother responding to you because I'm used to the outcome and I don't take cartalk all that personal. Wanna talk cars, great. Don't have to be an arogant prick to do it. Take care and don't respond to any of my posts.

And, urrdicklless or whatever your name is, you have added ZERO to this discussion, absolutley nothing except snide idiotic comments from the sidelines. Wanna jump off a bridge, go for it. Otherwise suck off, because you're the one who sounds like a foolish pissant.

And if this post gets deleted my apologies to Karl and the rest of the Edmunds crew.
 
I've had enough.

Well I have made you stop posting here so I think ive added plenty to this discussion..

"Well I have made you stop posting here so I think ive added plenty to this discussion.."
 
Amen to that! I'll pay you to make him disappear permanently.

"And seriously, do you think that by acting like a complete A-hole makes your points come across any stronger? "
 
I don't know- you seem to think it works so I might as well emulate an intelligent and impressive debater such as yourself.

Karl,
a couple of points:
- I believe the industry term is "mild hybrid", not "weak hybrid"
- re mpg: Autoline Detroit (John McElroy, I believe) was praising the Aura hybrid for excellent real life economy - in their tests it averaged 38mpg, if I remember correctly. How did you test your mileage, and are you sure there wasn't anything wrong with the car?
Tomek