When you say gm needs a successful economy car, do you mean one under a cobalt?

Regarding minivans - score a big win for the marketing people. The most common thing I hear from people with families regarding why they're opting for a suv or crossover instead of a minivan: I'm not a soccer mom. Yes, somehow the very essence of soccer mom in the 21st century - the suv - is viewed as anti-soccer mom by the buyers.
 
So to avoid the stigma of soccer mom, people buy spatially inefficient, gas guzzling, truck-like vehicles with AWD systems that won't cross anything harsher than gravel. Genius. Yet, drive by any school or go by any soccer game and what do you see? CUVs/SUVs.

I would buy a minivan in a heartbeat as a second car and I'm a single male under 30 with no children. I just got a new house and realized there is nothing like being able to haul your own stuff without having to call a friend with a truck or SUV. Also, after driving down to Charleston S.C. last weekend (11.5 hrs from Philly) my passengers would've appreciated the strech out room in back. With gas forever pegged at $2.50+ the minivan is the way to go. I'm the kind of guy who likes to go against the grain anyway so showing up to a BBQ in a Sedona would be pretty funny. When I pay off my Mazda I might look for a slightly used Sedona or 3.5L Sienna.

I must admit prior to my purchase of our Odyssey I was not looking forward to parting with our SUV(Tahoe). But for the last two years it has been the best auto purchase we have made for the family.
 
The Odyssey is more comfortable inside with more passenger room and leaves more room in our garage. It is powerful and has no problem in traffic. Ironically it is quicker than the Tahoe and handles far better. We will not be getting rid of it for a long time.
 
I understand the draw of the Cross Over, but the advantages of the Minivan far outweigh any "stigma" that is present.

Anecdotal counter-example: My wife's defining ambition is to trade in our Camry for a Sienna.

As long as gas remains expensive and there are people who need to haul people in comfort, there will always be a market for minivans. Yes, that market is getting smaller but will not diminish to zero because that core market remains. (Much like the econocar market was for a long time relatively small but never disappeared.......Toyota, Honda, VW and Mazda definitely had profitable models before the genre became popular again in the mid-2000s.)
 
Manufacturers can help the minivan market by making them more stylish and marketing their strengths. I used to think all minivans were ugly until I saw a pimped-up Mazda 5 on Carspace. The guy had put some very attractive alloy wheels and replaced the bumpers with more agressive-looking ones. I said "wow"! Minivans can be made to look cool.

We rented a minivan for a long drive with 4 adults and a child. My sister balked - "why didn't we get a Tahoe?" - but at the end of the trip she recognized the minivan was the bomb. We folded up one middle seat and the kid got the other middle position while the adults swapped from the front to the back. Tons of room, everybody was comfortable, separate AC, decent gas mileage (given our 85+ speeds), gobs of storage space for luggage, stable on the highway.
 
Would a Tahoe offer the same? Quite simply, no. I hope never to have a family so large that we need a minivan (one kid seems like more than enough) but if we do, I'd vote minivan over SUV any day.

Mazda, please bring the (JDM) MPV back! Thank you! Please come again!

left out an 'a' in Canada in the title big guy ;)

I like hearing the stories of former SUV owners, or just people who dreaded a minivan purchase, admitting to how much they liked them once they took the plunge.
 
I've said for years that if you put every soccer mom currently in an SUV into a minivan, and two weeks later said, "Okay, your 'sentence' in the frumpy minivan is up and you can go back to your 'cool' SUV" a good 70-80 percent would say, "You can have my minivan keys when you pry them from my cold, dead hands."
 
Funny how quickly image concerns evaporate once you give logic a chance.

But if that's true, then why doesn't the minivan have a diehard following that's stealing consumers from suv/cuv instead of the other way around? Something has to be driving the minivan owners from minivans to other vehicles.

heffling - image. It's all about how they perceive the minivan and how they perceive people who drive them. The minivans of the 1980s/90s weren't nearly as plush, powerful or composed as today's examples. The fold-flat seating, the multiple AC controls, the DVD players, etc all elevate the minivan to places they weren't in the 90s.
 
The people having families today remember what their moms had and say "That's not me! I drive a cool 4x4 that gets 16 mpg, seats 7 uncomfortably and grandma can't get in it without risk of falling!"
 
Marketing gurus have convinced millions that SUVs are still sexy and say you're not a boring mom-creature, like the moribund people in the suburban-hell of minivans. Ironic as suburbia is filled with SUVs...thus they are the soccer mom cars.

Well that news about Chrysler won't exactly help cars fly off their lots up here in the north will it? I wonder what their reasoning is behind it besides "let's save money".

Karl,
  
I think one demographic you might be ignoring or overlooking is the baby boomers. As they approach retirement age and have grandkids, the minivan becomes very compelling. I have noticed in my neck of the woods (DFW Metroplex) that many, many semi-elderly folks have moved from a sedan/SUV to a minivan to carry all the grandkids and their assorted "stuff."
  
As our population ages and gas becomes more expensive (two inevitable outcomes), I would expect minivan sales to at least stabilize, if not turn around and increase.
  
It's too bad GM and Ford seem incapable of building a credible minivan. Quite frankly, I would think it would be easy to do. Simply copy the best features of each minivan in the market today and, presto, you're a player. I would think building a new Corvette or Camero is much more challenging then a simple people moving rolling box.

All true PF. Unfortunately, knowing that the retirement demographic is moving into minivans isn't much better than the soccer-mom image they already have...

R-class. Those things crack me up. They take the size of an SUV, put it down low like a minivan and then make the interior tighter than a normal SUV. The advantage of the R? Egad, who knows?!

I think it's really funny.
 
People don't think minivans are cool so the car makers throw some SUV styling cues on their minvans, take away the handy sliding doors, shink the interiors, jack up the price and people love it.
 
Makes me laugh sometimes.
 
By the way, minivans still sell well in other markets. The Caravan is always in the top 5 in Canada and Europe have lots of clever little van like "people movers".

The minivan segment just needs a wake-up call.
 
Mazda gave it a small one with the 5, which I've seen a lot of 30-something males driving (without kids, even!). Nissan tried to reinvigorate the segment with the Quest, but that van proved to be a poorly executed styling statement.
 
If you pay close attention to the sales numbers, I'll bet that the decline of the Chrysler minivans has moved in step with the decline of the segment. Chrysler could do this segment a lot of good with a Hemi-powered, well-styled, truly innovative van. It's not about giving people power; it's about creating a positive image for the van as versitile and useful. They did it in '96; they need to do it again.

There's two solutions alone that would likely turn around the minivan segment from its current situation. One solution is cheaper than the other and one is more effective. Together, they'd make a nice impact.
 
1.) Put some more aggressive styling cues. Watch the weight, but try for more chrome, solid bumpers, higher beltline (if possible), nice lines and so on. If this doesn't work, toss in a more torquey engine.
 
2.) Rename your segment offering. Drop the minivan name (but avoid misnomers like "crossover utility vehicle") to something more cool, more acceptable. Then you market the heck out of it with the best players available in an aggressive campaign.
 
Do one of the two and it's a step in the right direction. Do both of them and you're on your way to a nicer bottom line.

The VW minivan concept with minibus styling cues would've looked good. Maybe no nose is better than a snub nose... and there are other ways to be creative.
 
The Toyota Estima (in other countries, the Previa lives on) looks pretty good, and there's a hybrid version too.

Well our MDX is pretty much a jacked up minivan so it kinda avoids the stigma but the practicality and utility are worth it. But I can't imagine spending over 100 bucks a tank just to fill up a behemoth like a Tahoe or Suburban that returns 12mpg. Plus you have to remove the clumsy third row seats just to use the space provided.

"The Toyota Estima (in other countries, the Previa lives on) looks pretty good, and there's a hybrid version too."
 
The reason the Previa is not made here anymore is its dramatic structural problems. It is the WORST (modern) minivan when it comes to crash numbers. It was down right dangerous.

 
It's not mid-engined anymore, and I assume they've improved the structure too.

My wife and I considered practically every cross-over vehicle under the sun (not SUV's, we can't stand 'em), but we ended up buying a minivan. The sliding doors, cargo capacity/flexibility, and elevated seats make kid hauling much, much easier. Crossovers give you some of it, but not the whole package.
 
Now, if some OEM could give me the option of a sliding door on a crossover, then I'd take another look.

Now, if some OEM could give me the option of a sliding door on a crossover, then I'd take another look.
 
I know I'm alone on this, but I want sliding doors on cars. The efficiency of swing out doors escapes me. Plus they have a tendency to damage nearby cars/walls/poles while a door that pops out 3-4 inches and then slides forward for front doors and backward for back doors would be great.
 
Maybe for crashes such a design is a worry? Yet, why do they have them on minivans then?

You mean like this car....
 
http://www.peugeot.com/produits/modeles/1007/en/default.htm

First, yep it's the only one out right now.

Blueguy, sliding doors are not as reliable as regular doors when used very frequently. Obviously, in a vehicle like a minivan where the sliding door is used relatively little, they're a great idea. On regular cars, I'm not so sure......
 
Karl, am I right about sliding doors?

Kwaku, I think it's more of an engineering issue. If you had sliding doors on many vehicles, the rear wheel wells would probably be in the way. There isn't much room in the rear quarter panels for a lot of the hardware that would be needed to support sliding doors.

Not sure about the reliability of one door type versus another. However, a basic hinge is pretty cheap/easy to design while a sliding door requires a long "track' for the door to "ride" in, so I'm sure it's a more expensive proposition for car makers. Throw in the "minivan stigma" and automakers see it as a double negative -- despite the obvious practicality benefits that blueguy mentioned.
 
It's one of the reasons I love minivans. Not only are the sliding doors better for easy entry/egress, but when you pull into a parking space you don't have to jump out and stand between your car and the next car while your kids exit the vehicle. I can't stand getting or giving door dings, and I like the piece of mind that comes with knowing my kids can't damage the next car over, no matter how "enthusiastically" they exit a minivan (though in truth, they've modeled my behavior and are quite aware when it comes to not banging the doors into another vehicle -- probably comes from the tight quarters in my own garage...).

I have an '04 MPV and love it. If Mazda brought over the next gen MPV I would buy one as our next car in a red hot minute. Instead Mazda gives me a choice of like 10 different crossover thingies, and the only one that has sliding doors is the too-small 5. It's too bad, really.
 
-Jason

Ugh...why are we Americans so stupid?
 
Anyway, my minivan marketing plan is to compare specs, but not in a stupid or dishonest way, like the manufacturers often do. "The Equinox has more cargo room than the Lexus RX330!!!" LMAO The specs can stand on their own, w/o marketing wizardry, right?
 
Example: Minivan
0-60
1/4
 
skidpad
slalom
 
interior dimensions galore
fuel economy
price
 
I think competent minivans could trump just about any SUV/CUV in close to, if not all of those categorys simultaneously! The only shortcoming would be here in the snowbelt, where everyone thinks they need AWD, though some vans offer that if you choose. Just the facts...that's what made imports as popular as they are today, the facts of reliability and fuel efficiency. (Please don't take that as me being a import lover/domestic hater; not trying to argue about that right now.)

Bbechtel16, it not that Americans are not aware of (at least some of) the virtues of minivans. I'm sure most buyers know that minivans offer more interior space, better seating arrangements and better fuel economy. The Sienna, Odyssey, Grand Caravan, Quest and Mazda 5 are already very competent models.
The reason minivans are not selling is an image issue: they're not percieved as cool anymore.....it's as if they're going out of fashion, in spite of their obvious advantages.
[Similarly, sedans sell far more that station wagons, despite better cargo space and overall utility, because station wagons are considered uncool or unattractive. I think the average person knows the disadvantages of sedans.]
 
There'll always be people who see the good side of minivans and aren't bothered about the image issue, so there'll always a market for them. However, to make that market as large as it was in the past, manufacturers would have to market them aggressively and make them more stylish.
 
At the moment, I think manufacturers are currently gaining from the SUV/CUV craze and so are not entirely willing to put in the necessary marketing effort for minivans. I don't remember the last time I saw a minivan advert on TV! How many SUV adverts do we see everyday?

My wife is on her second minivan. The first one was a Villager that she drove for 10 years, and she currently has a 2005 Grand Caravan SXT Special Edition that we bought new. Did we need another minivan? No, but my wife is crazy about these things.
  
Minivans aren't what I'd consider cool, but I wouldn't call a Camry cool by any means either. What minivans offer is high seating, good gas mileage, great cargo capacity (especially easy to transform your vehicle with the Stow-N-Go), a comfortable ride, tons of options, and something that many people don't think about....you blend into traffic.
  
As a side note, my buddy owns a auto service/repair business. You'd be surprised how much you can learn about how a vehicle is built by looking at the underside. Let's just say that the GC is one of the better built vehicles I've seen judging from the underside.

Maybe "cool" was the wrong word to use, but there is no doubt that minivans currently have in image problem.....

Toyota Previas are COOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_meHP_ZrliU

I agree that image is a huge issue. I just think there's still hope for some Americans if the marketing people would simply remind them how much more sense it makes to drive a minivan. I think there are lots of practical people who are just buying SUV/CUVs just because that's the path of least resistance, so to speak.
 
One problem with my plan is putting down other vehicle segments. Sure you could compare your van to other manufacturers SUV/CUVs, but the same could be said about your own SUV/CUVs. This could be complicated.

"I don't remember the last time I saw a minivan advert on TV! How many SUV adverts do we see everyday?"
 
Honda had a GREAT commercial for the Odyssey last year with classic rock playing the back ground (two different commericals) (I think one was the WHO)
 
The tag line was that it was not your parents van, and Respect the Van.
 
It was creative. We had just bought our Odyssey (which my wife refuses to call a minivan, but rather the "Odyssey"). Nothing like classic rock and roll and a Minivan.

Brett, my point exactly. :) A year ago! But just about everyday, there are numerous full-size pickup commercials and several SUV/CUV commercials.....and a few car/sedan commercials whenever there is a new model or a MY clearance (a few times a month at most!). I'm sure being in West Texas (Lubbock to be specific) is a contributing factor, but it's still fairly obvious that pickups and SUV/CUVs get far more marketing effort!

They get more effort and marketing dollars, because that is where the current batch of new development dollars is being spent. A car company that introduces a new model and then does not advertise is STUPID. SUV's and CUV's come in all shapes and sizes. Most companies only have One minivan and therefore, only really poor marketing dollars into the first year or new redesign every two to four years.
 
SUV's and CUV get the numbers because they offer a different path from the obvious and the old. The SUV movement is old in car terms, but in actual terms of most people's car buying it is relatively new. The 1990 Exployer and 1992 Jeep GC were the starters, of the fade buying. SUV's and CUV offer the public something different than the typical sedan that has been offered for almost a century.
 
People enjoy the utility and driving position without having to have a family mobile. SUV's (except the large ones) and CUV's offer the perfect compromise. I personally prefer my car, and I know the arguments about MPG and driving, and handling dynamics.
 
But Ask yourself "When have Americans been overly concerned about how their cars "handled"? Macroeconmically, it is a relatively small population that purchases their vehicles based on better handling or steering qualities.

I find it funny that some people think that they need an SUV/CUV just because it has AWD/4x4. When we get a nice amount of snow here in Ky (we usually get 3-5 inches in Jan-Feb) what kind of vehicles do I usually see in the ditches on the side of the road? Tahoes, Expeditions, Sequoias, and other SUV/CUVs. People forget you have to control and stop all of that weight on slippery surfaces.
 
I dont drive my 03 Acura CL-S 6MT in the snow (although Ive had no issues with it in the snow), I drive my lowered 95 Civic Ex sedan because of the lower center of gravity, light weight. Its easier to control, has good traction (LSD) and its easier to navigate and to stop on slippery surfaces. Ive never gone off the side of the road and dont really plan to. BTW I have adjustable coilovers so I can raise or lower the car depending on conditions, race or weather.
 
We purchased an 05 Odyssey 2 years ago and still love it. Great room for our family of 7 and versatility. Its quiet, drives very well, decent on gas, and is luxurious by minivan standards (Odyssey Touring). Everyone has a right to what they want to drive but some people choose not to use good old fashioned common sense. As hard as we've worked to get where we are we choose to spend our money on needs and not what the Jones' down the street percieve as cool. Long live the minivan!

I grew up in Denver driving rear-wheel drive muscle cars with no ABS, no ESP and no visits to the local ditch.
 
Intelligence is still the best foul-weather driving aid. Too bad it's rarely among the standard (or even optional) equipment on modern vehicles...