Edmunds CarPool

I agree to all your points but would like to add one more ... make a reliable vehicle. A safe vehicle is no good to me if I cannot depend on it and going by the CR ratings as well as other consumer experiences/discussions on Edmunds I don't see Volvo as a reliable brand. Acura on the other hand is a reliable brand but it doesn't really give the owner the bragging rights ... it's just another Honda.

You're asking for an R-class-like vehicle? It's definitely logical, as long as they don't actually build an R-class.
 
There are a lot of 240 fans who would be back in a flash for something equivalent, too.

tiruvan, i agee with you, but i must add a side-note. I have it on decent
authority from various mechanics I've conversated with and trust (yes, trust) as well as Volvo lovers, that Volvo's really are reliable. The important thing is regular maintenance from pickup at the showroom floor, from there on out. Too many people purchase brand new Volvo's and assume they are rock solid. To buy a used Volvo WITHOUT a detailed documented history is suicide. The AWD systems themselves start to break down if the tires are not constantly maintained at perfect wear and alignment. The turbos NEED the regular internal oil change and fluid check. Typically, a well-maintaned Volvo will be owned by someone who will drive it to 250,000 miles.
I hope I've been clear enough with this to make sense.

also, to trust CR reports and frequent edmunds.com strikes me as somewhat hypocritical. to mention "well, CR says" around here will get you lambasted from every angle. we dont give CR a whole lot of credibility 'round these parts.....

Karl, I agree with you in several points but one. Putting Volvo neck on neck with BMW in pricing is suicide I think. Volvo will need many years and whole lot R&D to compete with BMW at the same level. They can undercut them if they offer as you pointed better quality and materials. The performance group "R" could be achieved with a concept of a Yamaha V8 power RWD car and a Turbo 6 cyl AWD. The S60R was a good concept but restricted on the safety philosophy and poor marketing.

Recently I went to my local used car lot to test drive a Volvo.
the salesmen actualy discourgaged me by saying that the "Volvos' are so complicated that only a rocket scientist can work on them" .
I'm not a rocket scientist so It worked; I did not test drive the Volvo.
But I'm curious if this assesment is true.

In our driveway right now, there are two Volvos: a purchased 2006 S60 R (auto, Passion Red/Navy Nordkap leather) and a leased 2007 S60 2.5T (auto, Willow Green/Taupe leather). I generally disagree with most of Karl's suggestions for making over Volvo.
 
1. Rear drive: I guess going rear drive would be OK if it didn't increase the price, didn't reduce fuel economy, and didn't reduce trunk/interior space. I think Volvo buyers care more about those traits than what wheels are driven. Besides, the star drivetrain in premium vehicles is currently AWD, and Volvo offers AWD on most models that they sell here in the U.S. Yes, it increases the price, reduces fuel economy and trunk/interior space. However, Volvo buyers see a great benefit in AWD, which they do not see with RWD.
 
2. V8 in V70 and S60: I can see offering a V8 in the new V70, but why the S60? The S60 is not lacking in the power department, especially since they dropped the naturally aspirated engine. And the turbo engines are not lacking in low-end torque. I think one of the main reasons the S60 R didn't sell well was the price (our S60 R had a sticker of $47k, but we got almost $10k off that price). I would imagine a V8 option would push the price back up there where Volvo buyers won't go on that model.
 
3. Move upscale: I think the is the suggestion that I disagree the most with. Volvo has carved out this little niche that it's in because of its more-than-mainstream, less-than-premium status. I believe the typical Volvo buyer wants a very nice car that is somewhat upscale, but without the typical image that is associated with premium brands. (As an example... I looked at the BMW 3- and 5-series, but I felt I wasn't snobby or rude enough to drive either.) I also believe Volvo buyers still heavily appreciate value and utility.
 
4. Ultra-lux wagon: I can go either way on this one.
 
I do have some suggestions of my own:
 
A. More rear leg room. This problem plagues the entire Volvo line-up. It may be fine in the C30/S40/V50/C70, but it is glaringly obvious in the larger models.
 
B. Better navigation systems. The Volvo nav systems are horrible! They are slow, low resolution, and are extremely hard to use. I do like that they slide straight up from the center of the dash near the windshield, where it is easy to view. But the behind-the-wheel controls are terrible. Either move the controls to a visible location with more buttons (simply zooming in or out requires digging through menus), or move the screen closer and make it touch-sensitive.
 
C. More modern audio systems. Everyone that gets into either of our Volvos comments about how it has been years since they've seen the pop-out knobs to adjust bass, treble, balance, and fade. That wouldn't be so embarassing if the cars were built in the early 90's. And that knob on the right should be used for radio tuning! Instead, it just cycles through the functions (FM, AM, CD, AUX, etc.)!
 
D. Bluetooth. Why is Bluetooth an externally installed accessory? We considered it to be acceptable on the S60 given the model's age. However, you can buy a loaded S80 V8 with all of the options and hit an MSRP of nearly $65k, but guess what? Bluetooth is $388 extra, plus installation, but you get to choose where they are going to GLUE and VELCRO the ugly Bluetooth control module and microphone!
 
Basically, I believe that Volvo just needs to fix the little things to solidify their position. Volvo just needs to offer a more complete package like their competition. I think moving upmarket, or adding performance will alienate Volvo's core buyers, but not attract enough buyers from other brands.

Looking back at history, it would seem to me that Volvo is in a similar position as Audi was a few years ago. Back then, Audi was seen as "near luxury" or "discount luxury", i.e. half a tier below BMW/M-B. They also had primarily FWD and AWD drivetrains as well. On top of that, Audi also had a tarnished reputation for reliability and unintended acceleration. So if Audi was able to move up-market, then Volvo has hope too. Given the similarities, it would seem logical that the things that fixed Audi could also be applied to Volvo. In that light, I don't think a RWD platform as suggested by Karl is that critical. Being in the Ford family, Jaguar and Land Rover probably put a glass ceiling on Volvo so we'll see what happens when Ford ditches them.

Hmmm, I don't care how the audio system looks as long as it is loud and has great sound quality. I think the knobs actually make operation far easier than the stupid menu-driven touchscreens onn "modern" units.
 
Bluetooth should be standard on every Volvo!
 
jstandefer, the suggestions you've made are great but I doubt they'll greatly increase Volvo's fan base. Your suggestions would only solidify it's popularity with its fan base.....not that that' a bad thing. I for one appreciate cars that appeal to relatively few people (eg, Mazda). But from a purely business point of view, I guess that's a bad thing unless they can somehow get the fan base to pay more!

For nearly $31k for a base S60, you not only get an old-looking audio system, but you also get a whopping total of four speakers and a 4 x 25 watt amp! I have the upgraded version of that base audio system in mine... two tweeters added to the mix. It's nothing special, and gets the job done, and at least it sounds better than the upgraded Bose systems in my last two Miatas (Miata owners say, "No highs, no lows, must be Bose...").
 
blackadder, you're right. My suggestions are more for maintaining Volvo's fan base, rather than really increasing it. I think my main reason for that is there is really no other car manufacturer quite like Volvo. I have finally found a brand of cars that offers me a blend of traits that I, for the most part, like. Drastically change Volvo, and that goes away, and Volvo really loses me and their fan base. And where will the new buyers come from?
 
Will more V8s and RWD bring buyers from the BMW/Audi camp? Will more luxury and higher prices bring buyers from the Mercedes camp? I really don't think so, at least probably not for several decades. Look at Lincoln. They lost their way trying to reinvent themselves and become more like that "gold standard" that the automotive press believes is the one and only way that an auto manufacturer can thrive: BMW. They released the LS, which was a very good car. However, it was also the anti-Lincoln. Traditional Lincoln buyers didn't want it. It made some conquest sales in the beginning, but when the newness wore off and it came time for the Lincoln-loyal to keep sales alive, nobody would buy the car anymore. What Lincoln should have done is gone back to their luxury car roots of big V8s, RWD, and ultra-soft ride (and put Mercury out of its misery and let the Lincoln brand stand alone, but that's for another post), but they've continued to try and reinvent themselves, now with FWD, AWD, V6s, and more controlled rides. It's everything that they are not known for.
 
With Volvo, I say their best chance for success is continuing to build on their strengths. I have talked to a lot of people that considered Volvo, and generally like the cars they looked at and test drove. However, they went with other cars because of little things, such as rear leg room and Bluetooth. Our S60 R nearly lost the purchasing decision against the Acura TL. Mainly because the TL had Bluetooth, satellite, and a much more advanced nav system, all built-in and standard. The Volvo won because the dealer discounted it so heavily and threw in the Bluetooth equipment and installation. However, if the Volvo offered the same equipment, the TL wouldn't have stood a chance.

I have to agree with JStandefer. I see where you're going with that, Karl, but - little bit of game theory here - I don't think that moving Volvo upscale is a good idea at all. Volvo has always had a comfortable, Birkenstock/J. Crew/L.L. Bean feel to it that sets it apart from its more patrician German rivals. I think Volvo needs to focus on its strengths - family-friendly, upscale vehicles. With that in mind, a more van-like, larger crossover would probably be a good idea (I'm thinking GM Lambda ute-ish). It'd probably also be a good idea to resize the S60 to be more in line with the S70 that preceeded it and make the S80 slightly larger than what it is now. A C30 five-door hatch would probably be a good idea, too. I think making those small changes and keeping Volvo a boutique manufacturer that uses economies of scale to stay viable is probably the best thing.

" .... Volvo is down nearly 10 percent for the year, and it seems there's been a stagnation in their product line-up."
  
Karl, that may be correct for the US market (at least the sales part), but Volvo is a global company. Here's the sales picture by region, percent of global sales in parentheses:
  
Oct YTD
Europe (58) +11%
USA (23) -10%
Other (19) +26%
World (100) +8%
  
Non-USA (77) +14%
  
Globally, sales are quite healthy and the product line-up is far from stagnant. Volvo will have record sales this year and sales are accelerating - up10% in the 2nd half of the year versus 6.5% in the first half.
  
Volvo's main problem is margins aren't high enough. This is especially true in the USA because of the weak dollar, and so Volvo has been putting a lot more emphasis on other markets.
  
The solution to the margin problem is to reduce costs and move the brand further upmarket. The latter doesn't necessarily mean ultra luxury or low volume halo cars; nor is Volvo looking to be a performance brand. They want to improve the brand's image, more likely in incremental ways, so it can support higher net pricing while increasing volume.

Volvos are so ugly.
If that's not the word, then "bland".
An expensive Toyota.
Is that some sort of ultimate insult in these parts of the internet?

with an economy thats slowing down. lets raise the prices on volov.
 
it seems like everything these days is moving upscale. What about upscale at a good price. Drop the price on the c30 to max out at about 30k. What the world needs is a real entry level lux car. Nicely appointed, well made. but instead the near lux market keeps pushing up.
 
Theres a school of thought that bmw is building a house of cards, as the move up the lux/price scale they spend tons on engineering/material, but sell fewer and fewer models. so the prices have to rise more. eventually pricing themselves out of the market

opfreak
 
I totally agree with your point on moving volvo upmarket. If you look at a decently optioned, mid-level s40, you're talking 30K! For this price, a loaded mainstream midsizer (camry, accord, aura, passat, awd fusion,ect.) will give you the luxury, more room, most if not all the safety stuff, and more performance for even or less money. Although they make a nice car, they really don't seem to have any attributes that would make me pay a premium for them.

To add to my thoughts. by all the makes exiting the near lux/entery level lux market you end up with freak cars. Like an accord that can top out at over 30grand. from a base price of about ~20k. or subaru with their wrx. and to some extent a sti. The middle is so void of defening vechicals that you get an 17k imperaza, to a 25k wrx. For what? 80more hp. thats quite a bit, but still that 80hp cost you 8k. normally engine upgrades within a car model are the cheapest way to add proven, and warrentied power. At least the sti adds a better awd system.
 
imho cars like camery's accords, malibus, should reach their peak price at about 26, maybe 27k with this navigation profit filler their adding. (sorry but if a portiable nav costs 140 on the open market [for a tomtom]. Theres no way it should cost 1k+ to add it to a car, it just means that the manufacture made 800 bucks off you.
 
near lux cars should start at 26k and go up to 35k. and after that you get into varous lux cars. esspically if defenie bmw as the start of lux cars at there 3 series starts somewhere in the 37k range.

Volvo might be down so far this year, however the past four years has been a huge new-product blitz. Sales shot up with the hugely successful S40 in 2005 and the only new product that they've launched that would have impacted sales this year has been the low volume S80. The introduction of the updated Crosscountry and the C30 has been too recent to be a blip yet.
 
Volvo's overall strategy is mostly good. However, there are some things that would make the picture rosier...
 
-Update the two high-volume, high-margin models, the S60 and the XC90.
-Develop a smaller SUV/Crossover type of vehicle
-Do not get rid of the entry level sedan, the S40. A small luxury car is very appropriate these days and it makes the brand more accessible to the well-paid 20-somethings.
 
I don't know if developing an R range of cars makes much sense. With all the uber high powered M cars, SRT and RS cars, Volvo R cars could never be competitive and still stay within their core values of providing solid, smart, safe cars.

ne1 - I think they do have a new smaller SUV/CUV in the wings, the XC60 (I believe) and it looked great in the pics I saw.

bilt9: "Volvos are so ugly."
 
I couldn't disagree more. I think current Volvos are some of the best looking cars around.

As one of the older posters here (I presume) in my mid-60s, I first bought Volvo in the late '60s and early '70s, when Volvo, SAAB, BMW, and even Audi were all effectively in the same price range - $3,000 to $4,000. Only M-B was in the premium price range of $6K and above during that time frame. All of the aforementioned four brands were not considered near-premium or premium vehicles at that time, as was (and is) M-B, just solid European alternatives to domestic offerings. However, all have since moved up-market, some more successfully than others.
 
What sold Volvo in the early days was practicality, reliability, and safety. However, today aesthetic design is ever so important, and Volvo is right up there with the best of them in this category. If Volvo would bring back a retro-version of the 145/245 wagon design, they would sell boatloads of them. Obviously, this isn't going to happen, but one can dream!

i think the next xc90 should be a Cx-9 spin off. it gets more space and sporty handling! Whats not to like? Theres that r-class type volvo, the xc90/cx-9.
 
The S60 should be RWD and optional v8... like a lincoln LS replacement. about cts/5series/m35/45 size.

With a recession possibly looming (some say a multi-year one) I'm wondering just how many out there will be able to afford these premium priced cars. And since a good part of those sales are spurred by image consciousness as much as actual performance, I'm also wondering if Volvo can compete against the more snob-friendly brands. I was actually wondering if Volvo could compete making more basic cars as alternatives to the camry/accord .