Edmunds CarPool

First pic I've seen in black. Are chrome wheels an option? I think a black G8 with chrome wheels would give a certain American flavor many would enjoy.

Gaa...this is playing out just like the last Aussie Boondoggle.
 
  - Overpriced
  - Not designed for american tastes (See SATURN ASTRA!)
  - Wrong Division. This should've been a Chevy.
  - Wrong car at the wrong time.
  - Won't be given enough attention @ launch
  - Won't be given ANY follow-on ad budget.
 
Someone at GM should've had the balls to kill this thing. . .sure we 1% of the performance geeks & gearheads will love it, but this car's going to thud in the market, big time.

It'd be nice to have a bigger picture of the centre stack, so we can read what the top display is saying and see some of the bizzare symbols you mentioned.
 
I'm not sure I care about having "auto" and "zone" on opposite sides (I didn't know that was even backwards?), and I kinda like centre window operation as long as they're in reach.
 
That being said, its nice to hear another point of view on this car. I feel like there are so many expectations surrounding this car, that it will be hard to have a negative article on it. And any negative article/blog will quickly be criticized to death by certain people on this website (and others, I assume) convinced of some huge industry wide scam to bring down the domestics and put an Accord in everyone's driveway.
 
In fact, I'm there there will be some following this blog today....

Pure idiotic commentary. Almost everyone else (including this site) has loved this car and Karl has to come along to "set the record straight". Most cars sold by European manufacturers have some of the same compromises as the G8 since they are sold in left and right hand drive.
 
The GTO was on a dated platform, had no V6, had a base price over $30K and was a coupe. Are we really suprised it didnt sell that well? None of those issues apply to the G8.
 
"Anyone want to place bets on when the first incentives hit?"
 
Are you serious? They are only importing 30k to 40k of these cars. You can't honestly think Pontiac will need thousands on the hood to sell that many cars, especially when the GP is being phased out. The LX cars need incentives because they are 4 years old and chrysler needs to sell significant volumes of both cars. GM doesn't have either problem.
 
I find it odd that someone who constantly waxes nostalgiac about crappy RWD Detroit cars from the 60s and 70s would hate a refined, world class RWD sedan like this.
 
"Hmm...drives fine. It certainly didn't inspire me to break into song, but, it's fine. "
 
Most reviewers seemed to be impressed. Automobile (we know they are unabashed GM fans) compared the G8 to the 550i and said the differences between them in terms of ride and handling were minimal. If that is your definition of "fine" then I will take "fine" any day.
 
stop hating.
 
"American buyers are more sensitive than ever to gas prices and/or environmental concerns a large, V8, rear-drive sedan with bizarre interior features isn't going to turn the company around. "
 
The car has a V6 and they expect that to comprise 70% of sales. Furthermore, the V8s mileage is only SLIGHTLY worse than teh G35 and CTS even though is has far more power and torque than either. What are you talking about? You are ignoring the facts to attempt to justify your dislike of the car. BTW, do you expect "environmental concerns" to kill the Mustang, G37, 550i, M45, E550, GS460, M3, M5, etc.? None of those cars gets great mileage and all of them piss off Prius owners.

"That being said, its nice to hear another point of view on this car. I feel like there are so many expectations surrounding this car, that it will be hard to have a negative article on it. And any negative article/blog will quickly be criticized to death by certain people on this website (and others, I assume) convinced of some huge industry wide scam to bring down the domestics and put an Accord in everyone's driveway. "
 
there is such thing as legitimate criticism and there is such thing as baseless griping by someone who obviously has an axe to grind with an Australian based vehicle. BTW, the G35 has the same type of headrests that Karl is so upset about and yet I've never read of any complaints when reviewing that car. Its all nonsense and the double standard is real. You don't have to like it but the facts speak for themselves.
 
Legit criticisms of this car would be the lack of nav and lack of manual tranny (to some, I dont care) but not the stuff mentioned above. Honesltly this is a pretty complete car for the price and THAT is why the press has been giving in favorable reviews. Interesting that people are willing to discount positive press for a domestic model as if there is some pro-America conspiracy in the media but there would be no issue if the praise was for an Accord or 3 series. So the narrative is that people are praising the G8 because they are secretly rooting for the car, not because its actually a good car.
 
Bluetooth and XM will be standard for the 2009 model which will be on sale in summer or fall. Karl can erase that complaint.

Wow, just when I was beginning to think there was hope for Mr Brauer he so elequently goes against the grain to prove that he's smarter than any other reviewer in existance. It amazes me how he pretends to be an expert on all things automotive but doesn't understand the simple term "global." All german companies do the EXACT same thing when they export their cars to the USA. However, since they are left hand drive models, the difference isn't as noticable. If my memory serves me correctly, previous BMWs and MBs all featured center mounted commonly used controls such as window/door lock switches, etc. However English produced vehicles have the same symmetric style cockpits as the Aussie models so in the name of PROFIT, they make a few sacrifices to lower production cost yet still sell in mutliple configurations. See, Mr Brauer thinks that all cars are to be made for his inspection and satisfaction. He isn't concerned with cars actually making money for the companies because that isn't their primary purpose in life. He'd rather GM waste time switching around knobs than putting the car in production as quickly as possible. Ofcourse, if he had his way, these slight adjustments would add time and cost to the car and then he'd be complaining about how long it took GM to bring this car over along with its overpriced MSRP.
  
FYI- your long term G35 has fixed rear headrest just like the Chrysler LX sedans. I raise that point to illustrate the that previous generations of the aforementioned vehicles both featured adjustable head restraints for rear passengers. See, to the logical thinking person, they would interpret this as a compromise the automaker has made to improve the rest of the car and add desirable and distinguishable features (think MyGig for the Chryslers and the MusicBox for the Infiniti) that do more to attract the buyers attention and make cuts in places where the eyes are less likely to wander.

Just another car from GM ...

There is no way people can say the G8 is overpriced - for under $30000 you get a V8 362 hp, rear wheel drive, 50:50 weight distribution large sedan. Good interior plastics (a Karl pet peeve), great spcae, good styling (on the whole and certainly better than other large sedans out there). Is it perfect - No, but it is a great attempt from GM.

I like what I've seen and read about this car to date - until today.
 
I think this car is yet another (welcome) step in the right direction for GM. It may not illustrate what an American car needs to ultimately be to compete in the global market......but it's more right than wrong IMO.
 
The G8 is one of the cars I'm interested in seeing in the flesh this weekend at the NY show - I think it will look even better in person.
 
I do agree with Karl on the cheesy / old school Pontiac / space filler / voltage and oil pressure readouts though. I am one that likes more info and gauges than less.....but I'd rather they skipped these.

lol, I love being right.
 
"there is such thing as legitimate criticism and there is such thing as baseless griping by someone who obviously has an axe to grind with an Australian based vehicle."
 
I guess this line is a little more blurred to the rest of us than you you, eh 1487? I'll agree that commenting on Aussie oriented knobs, etc seems petty, but I don't agree that it indicates an obvious "axe to grind with an Australian based vehicle."

"Gaa...this is playing out just like the last Aussie Boondoggle.
  
  - Overpriced
  - Not designed for american tastes (See SATURN ASTRA!)
  - Wrong Division. This should've been a Chevy.
  - Wrong car at the wrong time.
  - Won't be given enough attention @ launch
  - Won't be given ANY follow-on ad budget. "
 
Overpriced? Are you serious? compared to what? As for ads, they are already running TV ads for the G8 and several more are on the way. It would be nice to investigate some of your claims in advance of posting.

"I guess this line is a little more blurred to the rest of us than you you, eh 1487? I'll agree that commenting on Aussie oriented knobs, etc seems petty, but I don't agree that it indicates an obvious "axe to grind with an Australian based vehicle.""
 
My point was that on the basis of the type of vehicle this is supposed to be there aren't many flaws. Its affordable, spacious, handles well and fast and yet Karl is predicting it wont sell without big incentives. It makes no sense.

"There is no way people can say the G8 is overpriced - for under $30000 you get a V8 362 hp, rear wheel drive, 50:50 weight distribution large sedan. Good interior plastics (a Karl pet peeve), great spcae, good styling (on the whole and certainly better than other large sedans out there). Is it perfect - No, but it is a great attempt from GM."
 
Exactly right. This is a classic example of damned if you do and damned if you dont. While Karl has been lavishing some praise on recent GM models I supposed he felt he had gone too far and had to prove to his fan base that he is still "keepin it real" when it comes to GM's ranking amongst the world's automakers. The press has blasted Pontiac (and GM) in the past for abandoning affordable RWD vehicles and now Pontiac gives us a GOOD one and Karl is complaining that this is the wrong vehicle at the wrong time. Perhaps he would be happier with a FWD fuel efficient base model G6 instead. Unless BMW, MB, Audi and others are criticized for making V8 powered cars in the era of $3.25 gas I dont want to hear Pontiac being criticized for doing the same. The S5 that Karl was just praising a short time ago has less power, less torque and less curb weight than the G8 and gets 14/21 as opposed to 15/24 for the "guzzling" Pontiac. Give me a break.
 
"Just another car from GM ..."
 
That's like saying the new Genesis is just another car from Hyundai. This car is a dramatic departure from what GM has offered to non luxury customers in the past. And its a good dramatic departure.

I've gotta weigh in here. I drove the same car Karl is talking about, and I journeyed to Australia last year to drive and test the car on which this one has been cloned from, the Holden Commodore SS.
  
I loved the Commodore. This G8 GT is a nice car, but I'm disappointed. Why?
  
1) The automatic transmission tears the heart out of it (The Commodore was a 6-speed manual.) Making matters worse, this one is obviously economy-tuned. This is the GT, after all. With a manual, you can get performance AND good EPA numbers. At the very least, delaying the release of the manual (or saving it for the GXP only--pray I'm not right) is scuttling GM's chance at a big media splash for the car's introduction. It isn't a development issue: the manual is ready. They've been selling it in Oz for a year.
  
2) The steering, brakes and suspension feel softened. I haven't confirmed the precise differences, but where the Commodore SS felt light on its feet and alert, the G8 GT feels heavier and more lethargic. I know from my down-under trip that the chassis is briliant--a huge step forward from the Monaro/GTO. But this G8 GT feels dumbed-down. And I tuned suspensions for a living in a past life--the Commodore SS isn't too stiff for our market.
  
3) The exhaust note is distant and barely audible. This car has a Corvette motor under the hood, for crying out loud. Let's hear it. It isn't necessary to go to full Trans-Am boy-racer levels but something would be nice.
  
4) After riding in it, my wife proclaimed it "nice," adding that she "didn't notice anything bad. It's OK." She liked the seats, too. Great. Fine. Just like a Camry. But this is a G8, the return of rear-drive to GM's line-up. And it's a GT, for crying out loud.
  
If they were going for 400,000 sales, the above approach would make sense. But plant limitations mean they can't sell more than 30k of them per year anyway, even less of those the GT version. Make a splash and go for more than "OK."

It's a Pontiac, it'll have trunk money before June.

Holden-GM try to copy the BMW 5 series as Automobile magazine pointed out. Yes, they are a few things just like Karl said were described by Car & Driver. Lets see if this injection of new models move Pontiac a little bit up. Time will tell.

I think I'm going have to digress with Karl on this one. I love the idea of the G8 and have sat in several at the auto shows in Detroit and Chicago and have been instantly impressed everytime.
 
 I can't afford a BMW, so I don't sit in them or drive them or love them. I've looked at the Charger, the Impala and the G8. I liked all three of these cars in they're own way, but for my purchasing power and a nice discount from my father's employer(guess who?), I think that a G8 is in my reach.
 
I can't afford a 3 series or a CTS or a C-class so why would I want to hear about how much the G8 doesn't live up to these cars.
 
So, in defense of the the G8 there will be one sold come next January.

Controversial comments, for sure. I think this is one I'll just have to drive for myself. It sounds to me like what a lot of you really want is a CTS-V or M5. So... go buy one. But expect to pay for it. It seems to me that the G8 GT will offer a lot of bang for the buck, even if it does lack some of the details that you've become spoiled by in all those luxury cars in the long term fleet.

Karl, this is a nice blog entry, especially since you highlighted importing it isn't as simple as converting it from RHD to LHD. Thanks for sharing your two cents too, Dan! :o)

I would have at least thought that there would have been a mention of what a bargain this car is. As jdub said the G8 offers performance on par with much more expensive cars, while offering plenty of room as well.
 
I'm also going to have to disagree with the last comment. Pontiac will have no trouble at all selling these, the reason being that their only competition, the Charger and 300 are three years older, and are both slower and make less power. Ford's Taurus is no match for the G8, neither is the Impala SS. Say what you want about the interior - for the price this car cant be beat.
 
Also please, enough about the lack of a manual. We know most people buy the automatic anyways, so unless you're buying a G8 there's no point complaining. Dont forget that the other cars in its class dont have manuals either, and the ones that do are more expensive.

Also I dont know what was so wrong with the previous GTO. I'd love to get my hands on a used one. Looks great, and plenty of fun I'd imagine.

Yeah it offers a lot of bang for the buck, and I think it'll find buyers based on what it offers for the price, but it's the cars exterior looks that put me off. A tired old rehash of GM styling cues from the late 90s and early 00's (Cavalier, Opel Omega, G6,GTO and every Australian Holden I can think of from the 90s).....at least there is a glimmer of hope at GM, the CTS and the Malibu has a nice look...like a bloated Civic.

One nice thing about the G8 is that the V8 comes at a premium of only $2400 over the V6. And a V8-equipped 5-series (550i) costs twice as much as the G8 GT. Well, you know the old question posed so many times on these blogs: is a 550i twice as good as a G8 GT?
 
And jdub, I don't know why I feel the need to point this out, but here goes. If you can afford to purchase a $30,000 car, you can afford to lease a BMW costing between $40K and $45K. I'm not implying that you would want to lease, but as that's what the majority of 3-series drivers do, I thought you'd like to know. :)

So if GM can make a $30k dressed down M5, why can't they give me a $23k dressed down 3 Series? That's all I need and want because I'm the type of consumer that buys an engine and a tranny (manual with RWD, please), not a bunch of electrical stuff added (that will eventually break or be outdated) in an attempt to polish a tu-rd.
 
But no, I only have the G6 with FWD and no standard available unless you opt for the rare GTP. C'mon, is the IS250 my only choice if I want a fun 4 door w/ RWD under 30k?

Not sure about the ergonomics but...I never remember the gto being criticised for being floppy. This review seemed harsh.

Selling cars with manual transmissions is a waste of time and money in america. Testing by auto journalists like Karl is the only reason they still have manual options. There obsolete in todays world of gridlock, cell phones, and McDonalds on the go. Even a performance company like BMW only sells a handfull of manuals in this country. The majority of younger drivers don't know how to drive a stick anyways.
Better get your big performance V8 while you can. GM already pulled the plug on their next generation V8. Come 2020 these cars are going to be the classics that everybody wants. The clocks already ticking on performance cars.

The review seems harsh because it's utter BS. I had to read it again just for entertainment. How can anyone who's literally in love with German cars have the nerve to comment on "obvious Aussie-oriented interior?" Audi, BMW and MB have been using cuneiform for years with minimal conflict. Back then, the user UNfriendly interiors were considered exotic premium. Do those companies care about fuel economy (good one about the S5 1487)? MB's 6.2L is speading like wildfire across the brand. Infiniti has a new 5.0L V8 coming out in the FX likely to spread amongst the ranks. Audi is talking about turbocharging V10s. BMW is throwing V8s into the 3 series. Give us all a break. BTW- diesels aren't the answer when you factor in the higher vehicle price matched with super expensive fuel ($4.04 here in Philly last week). Granted, those were high performance examples but the point is, they aren't curtailing their fuel sucking options. Karl, if you don't think the G8 will be able to find 40k buyers this year at that bargain of an MSRP- you're smoking.
  
Also- to those b!tching about the G8's exhaust note, it's important to note the G8's L76 6.0L is actually the Vortec V8 from the truck engines minus the VVT actuator with modified cylinder heads and exhaust headers. It is not an LS2 or LS3 based engine (though they are all so closely related that this point is strictly technical in nature). It does share the intake manifold, ignition coils and a similar ETC system with the LS3 but that's about it. The G8 GXP will feature a genuine LS3 based engine.
 
chevy- GM's not canceling their next gen V8s. In case you folks missed it, the GMC denali XT concept features a 4.9L V8 with direct injection and other fuel saving technologies to burn less fuel while simultaneously becoming more power dense. It makes 325hp which matches the output of the larger thristier 5.3L V8. Good point on manuals though, they are becoming ancient technology.

Chavis, thanks for clearning that up about GM not cancelling the next-gen v8 engines. It would be a shame for them to do that, though if they don't have any cars that warrant a v8 except for this G8, the Camaro and the Corvette, I don't supose they need DOHC v8s if Caddy seems content to do....whatever with the 3.6 "high-feature" v6. Here's what I'd call "high-feature:" a car that has 306 hp and looks as good as the new CTS that can do better than 6.4 seconds to 60 - the same as an automatic e46 330i. Geez. It's disconcerting to think that the G8 has a truck v8 instead of a perfectly good LS2 like the GTO had. In my mind, the LS3 that'll be offered in the GXP version aught to have more than 400 some odd horsepower. This is 2008, people, and engines that big need to make more power, I'm sorry.
 
And you're right again, Chavis, when you say that BMW and other foreign brands have been using "cuneiform" for years: they have, and it is one of the cool things about driving cars that come from other places. I'll put it to you this way, if it was possible, I would import an HSV Clubsport R8 (yeah, with the six-speed) and enjoy every minute of things not being specifically engineered for this country. If being alive for (barely) two decades had taught me anything, it's that America could stand a little shaking up in its automotive scene. American manufacturers make great cars, they just sell them in other markets like Europe and, in this case, Australia.
 
Karl isn't entirely wrong about the stupid Knight Rider-esque oil guage, though; a real volt meter and oild pressure guage pod would've been wayyyy cooler.
 
All of this just makes me pine for an Alpha-based car that has a real name and not this alphanumeric boring crap. Chevelle anyone?

I guess I'll give my two cents as well.
  
First, we all need to remember that Karl's blog is commentary, not an unbiased, fact spewing, news report. We read it to take advantage of someone's opinion. Karl is in a position 99% of us will never be in. He can and does drive many different vehicles throughout the course of the weeks, months and years, using his personal experience to compare many more cars than most people will ever have access to drive.
  
That being said, I also feel that a vehicle that sells for $30k shouldn't be nicked for not having all the same equipment/experiences as something that goes for $50k-60k. I haven't driven a G8 GT or a 550 and don't have the ability to tell anyone what would make someone smile or run away after driving either car. A common practice amongst automotive media publishers (print and online) is to compare vehicles based upon the price. We've all seen the new CTS compared to the smaller,and lighter BMWs, Infinitis, Mercedes etc. because of the MSRP being similar. Unfortunately this hasn't been practiced by Karl in some recent posts. I would like to know how this vehicle stacks up against its direct competition because I won't be shopping for a 5 series. So what if some controls are more canted to the passenger side of the vehicle? It's that way for some on both my G35 and my Mazda3. I don't recall seeing this issue being raised about either car and I don't know how pertinent it is here. The goofy displays at the top of the dash might be just that. GM might change them if it is seen as a negative thing by enough customers. I bet most people won't notice though.
  
Finally, these observations are Karl's. Everyone of us is welcome to test drive the car and form our own. I'm sure Karl doesn't expect us to take his opinions as the end-all-be-all for cars. What doesn't work for some will be a godsend to others.

Testing by auto journalists like Karl is the only reason they still have manual options. There obsolete in todays world of gridlock, cell phones, and McDonalds on the go. Even a performance company like BMW only sells a handfull of manuals in this country. The majority of younger drivers don't know how to drive a stick anyways.
 
Wow. Raise your 44 oz soda to the gods of laziness and banal driving.

"The steering, brakes and suspension feel softened. I haven't confirmed the precise differences, but where the Commodore SS felt light on its feet and alert, the G8 GT feels heavier and more lethargic. I know from my down-under trip that the chassis is briliant--a huge step forward from the Monaro/GTO. But this G8 GT feels dumbed-down. And I tuned suspensions for a living in a past life--the Commodore SS isn't too stiff for our market. "
 
That is BS. This car is virtually unchanged from the Commodore. The changes made are cosmetic for the most part. Suspension and braking are the same in both models.
 
"Wow. Raise your 44 oz soda to the gods of laziness and banal driving."
 
The American public doesnt want manuals anymore, especially not in large $30k sedans like this. Get over it. Manual snobbery is getting old. Dont shoot the messenger, shoot the 95% of Americans who drive automatics. Automakers are not going to offer what doesnt sell. The only reason BMW offers so many manuals is because they sell a lot of them in Europe and thus it costs them nothing to send a few manual equipped models to the US.
 
"Karl is in a position 99% of us will never be in. He can and does drive many different vehicles throughout the course of the weeks, months and years, using his personal experience to compare many more cars than most people will ever have access to drive. "
 
What does that have to do with the truth? Certain things cannot be debated. The fact that many cars that are made for left and right drive have similar compromises isnt debatable. The fact that the European cars that Karl loves often use icons instead of English to save money isnt something that is open for discussion, its a fact.
 
"So if GM can make a $30k dressed down M5, why can't they give me a $23k dressed down 3 Series? "
 
They dont have a small RWD platform. Is pretty simple really. The G8 is only here because GM had a large RWD platform developed in Oz. You cant create cars for platforms that dont exist. GM is supposedly working on a small 3 series like platform called Alpha.
 
"Yeah it offers a lot of bang for the buck, and I think it'll find buyers based on what it offers for the price, but it's the cars exterior looks that put me off. A tired old rehash of GM styling cues from the late 90s and early 00's (Cavalier, Opel Omega, G6,GTO and every Australian Holden I can think of from the 90s).....at least there is a glimmer of hope at GM, the CTS and the Malibu has a nice look...like a bloated Civic."
 
This car was mostly styled by Australians. The front end is Pontiac the rest is not. This is how they style cars in that country and personally I think the car is conservatively handsome. Its profile is very much like that of the 5 series as Automobile Mag noted in their current issue. You think the 5 seies looks like a Cavalier? I don't. Whose styling do you like? I can tell you one thing, this car looks better than the Maxima just unveiled in NY and most other midsize Japanese sedans. I like its styling better than G35, ES350, GS, etc. It has few gimmicks and that is a good thing in my book. If this were a Honda you would likely be telling us how its looks are timeless as opposed to trendy. This car will look good for years to come.
 
I fail to see how the G8 resembles the Catera, Cavalier or any other retired GM car sold in north America.

LMAO at that one, blueguy!

On a serious note, I wonder if manuals will begin to sell a little better in those cases where they have better gas mileage? Most automatics are very close or just as good, but maybe a few folks will decide to give it a try?

"Wow. Raise your 44 oz soda to the gods of laziness and banal driving."
 
HA! Nice.
 
It is kind of a shame that more people don't even know how to drive a stick, though. Not only does it give you more control over the car, it also forces you to put down your 44 oz soda and Big Mac and pay attention. America: Land of the Free and Home of the Lazy.

Karl, you hit the nail on the head with this one concerning this inexcusable cheapness. GM knows how to turn a radio design around for different markets; they do it seamlessly when they make cars for the UK/Ireland. The lack of a basic safety device for rear seat passengers is just dumb, and the dumbing down of the ride handling for the US market is just dumb. They can only build/import the damn thing in limited numbers, so why even bother with screwing with anything. Vauxhall got their version of the Commodore SS as is from down under, yet we have to get what is essentially a middle eastern chevy with a Pontiac grill. Of course GM North America can't figure out how to match ratios/clutch feel on a six-speed (CTS, Corvette, Sky, ect). and we all know that they would have to adjust everything for American tastes. I am a young person, and only one of my friends can't drive a stick. Doing a basic count of my car driving (not suv driving although one has an x5 5-speed) friends, I can only think of 2 with autos. I was considering this car for my next car, but no 6-speed and bad ergonomics rule that out.

"Wow. Raise your 44 oz soda to the gods of laziness and banal driving."
 
I guess your car has manual windows, manual door locks, and non power steering. And I suppose, no remote controls for audio/video equipment in the house. If you have any of those, raise your Perrier....

rkoe36- I'm guessing the lack of exhaust burble is related to the more restrictive air flow of the L76 versus the LS2/3. I think the LS V8s also have larger valves which probably has a profound impact on the sound volume. The LS2 made 400/400 with equal displacement although it was not SAE certified however the power ratings between the two engines are likely closer than the published 39 hp spread may seem. It seems most of GM's Gen IV V8s are rated conservatively under the new standards.
  
I do agree regarding the stupid read out but as I said, it was either leave 'em in or delay the introduction of the car by months. Seems like a worthwhile trade-off to me. As with any car, a mid-life freshening can solve many initial issues if they prove to be deal breakers. On the flip side, remember when MBs came with dial pad buttons on the dash even if you didn't order a car phone? Amazing how they could get away with that without catching any flak. I think some of the current models still have the space wasting feature.
 
With the price of the G8 GT, I would be able to keep most of my complaints to a minimum. but hey, C&D called the previous generation 325i a bargain at $30k without cruise control or a CD player so.... But hey, you're still driving a BMW with a shifter that, "stirs cream" as they put ot.
  
To all of you that lament the demise of the manual transmission, there are always certified pre-owned Bimmers you can buy. I'm starting to see a lot of commercials for them.

I'm gonna throw it out there that I think the G8 is overrated in the looks department. Now before you lynch me, I think the reason it stands out as good is because many other comparitively sized cars are weak on the style side - Camry, Accord, I'm looking at you - oh and just for fun throw the Aura in with them.
 
And as for all the automatic vs manual talk, I can assure you that there are plenty of people who don't live in grid locked cities who like manual. I would argue that if there is a proven mpg difference between standard and automatic, that the standards should be making a comeback. An interesting example is a female friend of mine. She's 23, just bought her first car. What did she get? Having never driven manual before, she went out of her way to learn it so she could buy one and save $$ and money. Honestly, I can see a lot of other young people making similar decisions, as the green/eco movement increases.

1487,
 
Way to take part of my comment to make the whole thing seem irrelevant and not use anything else. Maybe you could use where I state that the controls on both of my cars are similar in their orientation to help bolster your argument? Just a thought. While philosophically I would agree that if there is truth, than there is only the truth, not versions of truth. The difference here is that Karl's entire post is subjective. He didn't say that the controls sucked. He says they make no sense to him. Maybe it's the old dog, no new tricks thing but the controls seem pretty straight forward to me.
Here is a better pic of the center stack (Aussie version) :
 
http://g8gt.com/attachments/4d1171093024-chi07_pontiac-g8-13.jpg
 
Next time you want to pick apart an argument, perhaps you should look to the whole thing, not take a soundbite and rant on it...

dougtheeng- with current automatic transmission programming, many manuals no longer achieve higher EPA mpg than their automatic counterparts. Take the new TSX for example who's five speed gets better mileage than the six speed manual. I believe the same is true for certain BMW models. I know the Mazda3 2.3L is rated the same whether you get the auto or the stick. I'll find more examples later. Overall, I think the sales numbers speak for themselves and only the auto makers can run the cost/benefit schedules to make the decision. Regardless of the anyone's opinion, the FACT is that percentage wise, less people are buying sticks than before, period.

I guess your car has manual windows, manual door locks, and non power steering. And I suppose, no remote controls for audio/video equipment in the house. If you have any of those, raise your Perrier....
 
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Cooper or other fun car with manual windows, locks, etc.
 
The rest of your statement is apples and oranges.
 
Anyway, it was just a joke.

GM canceled their next generation Northstar V8. Bob Lutz has also said GM's pulled almost all their R&D money out of future RWD cars. They've all but anounced that the next Impala isn't going to be RWD like it was supposed to be.
chavis10, I agree 100%. If it wasn't for companies like Asin, you wouldn't be able to even get a manual in most of the cars built today. Automakers can't afford to dump millions into manual transmissions that make up less than 10% of their sales. With 5 and 6 speed automatics the mileage difference is almost nothing.

' "So if GM can make a $30k dressed down M5, why can't they give me a $23k dressed down 3 Series? "
  
They dont have a small RWD platform. Is pretty simple really. The G8 is only here because GM had a large RWD platform developed in Oz. You cant create cars for platforms that dont exist. GM is supposedly working on a small 3 series like platform called Alpha.'
I sure hope they deliver on this. I would love to at least consider buying something on this platform. I'm afraid it would be too big/heavy for my tastes though. I want a RWD G4...
 
"with current automatic transmission programming, many manuals no longer achieve higher EPA mpg than their automatic counterparts. Take the new TSX for example who's five speed gets better mileage than the six speed manual. I believe the same is true for certain BMW models. I know the Mazda3 2.3L is rated the same whether you get the auto or the stick. I'll find more examples later."
This is true. However I think it's less a factor of automatics truly getting better fuel economy and more a factor of automatics geeking out the EPA testing. This is part of the reason current automatics piss off us manual "elitists" so much, the shift logic is fuzzy in an effort to bolster the ever important EPA ratings.
 
The other issue I've noticed is how short the gearing in today's manual transmissions seems to be in relation to how fast we really drive on the highway. I know the Civic runs notably lower rpm at speed in top gear with the automatic. I'm really not sure why they do this. I think they're afraid people will complain about having to downshift for power. But if they're complaining about that shouldn't they be driving an automatic in the first place? I know my long drives in my Sentra would be much more refined too if we could turn the volume down from 3500 rpm a bit.

bbechtel16- torque converters are fluid couplings that actually multiply engine torque. This is what allows you to creep along with no throttle without stalling out. So take the product of your gear and axle ratios together and multiple by the flywheel torque and your final product will be your gross torque output. To illustrate this- GM's 6L80 transmission can accept up to 439 lbs-ft from the engine (input) and but can handle up to 664 lbs-ft (input plus fluid converter multiplication) internally.
 
Since a clutch doesn't multiply torque, it has to be geared shorter to aid flexibility and keep the engine tractable. However, since the parasitic loss is less in a manual, the shorter gearing doesn't burn any more fuel than the tall gearing in an automatic (all things being equal) although the noise from higher rpm is still a problem!! Automatics do have the ability to be very efficient when the torque convertor locks up, virtually matching input and output shaft speeds.
  
I do hear your point about modern automatic programming. GM is especially guilty of this but with gas $s the way they are, I am can allow it. Since most cars have manual overrides, enjoy the extra savings your car's computer is trying deliver and switch to manumatic once traffic clears

I, too, am excited about Alpha. Moreso, in fact, than I've ever been about the Zeta platform. I just want to get a small rwd sedan optioned however I'd like it (no leather, no power windows, no sunroof, no HD radio, etc., etc.) and I'd be happy to see it come from GM. It'll probably get put in Pontiac's stables, and maybe, probably in Cadillac's as well. But darn it if I wouldn't love it to death if you could get it is a coupe/sedan from Chevy. Even if Chevy doesn't have a big rwd car, it'd be nice if this one could slot above the Malibu....and please, please I want a new Chevelle. It's my favorite car ever, and it has such a lovely name. At least it sounds a little better than Malibu, which has next to no Malibu (as in California) in it at all. Sorry, everyone, that this had nothing to do with the G8.

Those of you saying manuals are outdated, come on! That's utter BS.
 
Firstly, the US is the ONLY country where automatics are the predominant choice. Elsewhere manuals are the predominant choice, and I believe for good reason.
 
Secondly, we're talking about a performance car here. A performance/sporty car is more rewarding when it offers the driver more control, and (well-designed) manual transmissions do exactly that!
 
Lastl, those talking about gridlock and traffic jams: the US is not the only countries with this problem. In fact, the situation here is pretty good. GO to other countries and you'll see worse. Yet everyone outside drives a manual.
 
SO, to say manuals are "outdated" or "ancient" is just baseless, especially when we're talking about a sporty car.

blackadder, manuals are outdated. Sorry to burst your bubble but they are probably on their last legs. with DSG like gearboxes giving you nearly the best of both worlds.
 
put it this way, the afforadable super car (gt-r) has an auto gear box. the car with 1001hp,... auto gear box. is-f.. autogear box.
 
and according to autoblog, last year was the year the auto outsold the stick.
 
 http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/12/automatics-to-exceed-manuals-worldwide-in-2007/

GM eliminated manuals in the silverado/sierra last year. The second best selling vehicle in america is automatic only. Isn't a camry automatic only?

with DSG like gearboxes giving you nearly the best of both worlds.
 
No thanks. We own a DSG. My wife likes it. I would commit suicide if I had to drive daily with that thing - 3 days with it last week and I was ready to walk to work over driving anything with an automatic. Every time it shifts the only thought running through my head "rebuild." Eventually, the day will come and it'll be a huge bill. Manuals, regardless of flexibility or ease of use, satisfy the cheap side of my brain. Automatics only mean higher maintenance costs to me.

blueguy- you need to get with the program. A lot of newer automatics are sealed from the factory. Many don't need their fluid changed for 100k. Unless you're planning to put 175-200k + miles on your car, I don't see encountering any issues with a slushbox if it's operating properly.

man. That 110k i have on my gm 4 spd slush box, with one fluid change sure is high maintance.
 
and i read that a clutch change in a mini costs 1000k+ plus. so much for all those cost savings.
 
------
 
But you avoid my point, that even performace cars are going 'auto' matic. and the rest of the world as they get more money will switch over to auto.
 
Whats next, Crank start cars because starters can wear out?

"It is kind of a shame that more people don't even know how to drive a stick, though. Not only does it give you more control over the car, it also forces you to put down your 44 oz soda and Big Mac and pay attention. America: Land of the Free and Home of the Lazy."
 
The idea that anyone who drives a manual doesnt pay attention is silly. Drivers who want to talk on the phone or eat while commuting will do so with a manual or automatic. The self righteousness of manual lovers is getting annoying and old. I drive and auto and I rarely use the phone or eat when behind the wheel.
 
"And as for all the automatic vs manual talk, I can assure you that there are plenty of people who don't live in grid locked cities who like manual. "
 
Why arent these people buying manuals? On the internet every other person claims to love manuals but in the real world they do not sell. If there is so much demand I would love to know why dealers dont stock them and why buyers dont buy them.
 
"GM knows how to turn a radio design around for different markets; they do it seamlessly when they make cars for the UK/Ireland. The lack of a basic safety device for rear seat passengers is just dumb, and the dumbing down of the ride handling for the US market is just dumb. They can only build/import the damn thing in limited numbers, so why even bother with screwing with anything. "
 
I will tell you what is dumb- people who keep saying the suspension was softened for the US market. If you have some proof please provide it. Otherwise stop making false claims. Anyone who pays attention knows IL and several of the buff book mags drove the commodore last year in Australia. I have not read ONE review that has stated the G8 has a US tuned suspension. In fact, they gave the base G8 and the GT the midlevel sport suspension from the Commodore. I believe the GXP has the stiffest suspension from the Commodore. There were MINIMAL changes to this car and they did not involve steering, suspension or brakes. Period.
 
BTW, the fact that you have some enthusiast friends who drive sticks doesnt prove there is a big market for them. The sales figures and the number of cars that offer manuals show youu that they are falling out of favor. America hasn't been a big time manual market for a long time and in this country sticks are generally associated with smaller cars. This isnt Europe folks so you cant expect automotive tastes to be the same. In Europe people are driving econo boxes with 100hp diesels and they need manuals to get every ounce of performance out their small engines. In America a car with 200hp is considered underpowered these days.

"and i read that a clutch change in a mini costs 1000k+ plus. so much for all those cost savings. "
 
Yeah if you read long term tests in magazines you will see that clutch replacement is common before 50k miles in many cars.
 
MB offers plenty of performance cars without manuals and no one complains. Same applies to Lexus and others. Sticks are offered to appease magazine writers and 5% of the public.

"Yeah if you read long term tests in magazines you will see that clutch replacement is common before 50k miles in many cars."
Could you site any? That's not very long, but you know how these auto journalists drive... For the record I have 196,000 on my original clutch.
  
"MB offers plenty of performance cars without manuals and no one complains. Same applies to Lexus and others. Sticks are offered to appease magazine writers and 5% of the public."
Actually...they do complain. That's one of the reasons true enthusiasts don't buy M-B and Lexus.

I know my reason for no longer having a car with a manual--I had to give up my '02 Altima 3.5SE w/ manual because my wife couldn't drive it and we're a one car family. That's probably a choice a lot of American families are forced to make because not all drivers in the fam can embrace the clutch, whether they have 2.2 cars or not.
 
I tried to teach my wife, but no luck. Even though she drove manuals in Japan, she couldn't handle ~250ft/lbs of torque. On her first attempt, she ran the engine to redline and slowly let out the clutch. I could smell rubber melting and quickly traded seats with her.
 
Going back to that Altima...It only had 5 cogs, and I never understood why it needed to be over 3000 rpm to go 80mph in 5th gear. Guess that's why they build the Maxima with 6 cogs. Gotta have some reason to upgrade.
 
Finally, with the weakening dollar, sign me up for a RWD domestic. Heck, gimme a 4 door version of the new Camaro, or stretch out the Solstice frame. I just need that turbo 4 cylinder, 4 doors, manual, and RWD. I know there are AWD options, but not really interested in those.

"The self righteousness of manual lovers is getting annoying and old. "
 
Does anyone else find this comment ironic coming from 1487? lol.
 
BTW I'm not suggesting manuals have a big market; I am simply suggesting the market exists.
 
"In Europe people are driving econo boxes with 100hp diesels and they need manuals to get every ounce of performance out their small engines."
 
Yes, I completely agree. But it seems to me that those 100hp (or there abouts) econoboxes are going to be pretty important in NA in the next few years, so it seems like the will continue to have manuals. I have bought 2 economy cars in the last 8 months and in both cases, finding a manual was no problem at all, so apparantly at least some dealers in Southern Ontario are stocking them. Those of us who choose to have a small car and want to have power will be considering manuals for some time now.
 
By no means am I arguing for manuals in MB, Lexus, etc. I don't claim to know much about that demographic.

The last three manuals that I owned - never replaced a clutch, nor any significant repair related to the clutch or transmission.
Same story for the last 3 cars with automatics.
Repair costs is not an issue for either, in my opinion.
 
I hope manuals don't go away. I want the choice.
 
"Actually...they do complain." Not many back it up with a manual purchase. check out listing for used BMW 3 series; most are autos.

Manuals make plenty of sense in gutless small cars but I fail to see the point in powerful larger sedans. If an engine has plenty of torque across a broad range, what's the point? Take a 335i for example. I doubt the manual is any faster than the automatic and 6 speeds seems largely superfluous since it makes peak torque from like 1600-5100 rpm or so.
 
For all of you who are saying your clutch has lasted 800k miles you have to remember that these long term magazine cars have endured countless amounts of high rpm clutch drops to get the printed numbers in the specs. If you don't do this, your clutch should last much longer. Automatics on the other hand deliver consistant easily duplicated performance time and time again with minimal internal abuse.
 
If you look at the supercar segment, Ferrari and Lambo buyers have been sacrificing their first borns to get F1 systems. I believe Ferrari was charging $30k or so for the orignal F1 system and Lambo wanted an extra $10k for the Gallardo's E-shift. Even with those ridiculous prices, the automated systems old sold the 3 pedal setups. How much does the R8's system cost?

Automatics quicker?
From a C+D test of a 335i automatic:
"A Winning Performance Combination
Even knowing what we know about the engine and tranny, we were still surprised just how quick the 335i automatic is. Indeed, this particular Arctic Metallic 335i coupe was the quickest 3-series coupe we’ve ever strapped our instruments to, and it also ended up right on top of an E46 M3, with 0-to-60-mph passes in 4.9 seconds and 100 mph in 12.1. The quarter-mile happened in a blistering 13.4 seconds at 106 mph, 0.2 second and 1 mph quicker than the 335i manual we tested last year."
 
As I recall, Edmunds found similar results...
- Ray
Automatic only driver, these days.....

"Could you site any? That's not very long, but you know how these auto journalists drive... For the record I have 196,000 on my original clutch. "
 
I have seen a few long term reviews in C&D, MT, etc in which they say the clutch wore out before the end of their test or right afterwards. Cannot remember which vehicles. Bottom line is that on most automatics no major work is needed for 100K miles or more.
 
"Actually...they do complain. That's one of the reasons true enthusiasts don't buy M-B and Lexus."
 
The IS-F has gotten positive reviews with its 8 speed paddle shifted auto. IL (or C&D) said that it was hard to argue with the effectiveness of the unit and they really didnt miss a manual. AMG cars sell just fine in the US as far as I can tell and they are auto only. I read that 2/3 of vettes are sold with automatics and its a sports car.
 
"BTW I'm not suggesting manuals have a big market; I am simply suggesting the market exists. "
 
A market exists for everything. I issue is that some people continue to beat a dead horse by complaining about cars like the G8 not offering manuals when we all know there is little demand for a full size car with a stick. You dont see BMW offering a manual on the 7 series.
 
"Yes, I completely agree. But it seems to me that those 100hp (or there abouts) econoboxes are going to be pretty important in NA in the next few years, so it seems like the will continue to have manuals. "
 
The US is not Europe. The size and power of the cars over there are not comparable to our offerings and even new CAFE standards cant change that. In the US we would consider a 200hp family car to be a sacrifice in the name of efficiency. In Europe a 200hp car is considered powerful. Europe's gas prices and narrow streets mean that they want and need small cars. The US may be getting new fuel economy standards but we will not be jumping into subcompacts anytime soon. Manuals are not going to increase in popularity when there are 6 and 7 speed autos on the market as well as DSGs. Chrysler and Ford are working on mass market DSGs that will be here in 2 years or so. I can see them all but abandoning manuals within a few years.

ray- thanx for the info. I don't think I read that review from C&D so I'll have to do a search on their site.
 
1487- I agree. Just because gas is getting more expensive, people aren't gonna be trading in their Pilots for Fits anytime soon. If anything, higher gas prices should promote people to drive less by cutting out frivolous trips. For us city slickers, it's more the notion of paying more for gas as opposed financial burden it places on our pockets. Just take public trans to work & walk when it's feasible and you'll save a lot. That said, my next car will be bigger and have more power than my current econobox.

I don't consider reliability as a reason to go with a manual, unless the automatic in the model in question is known for poor reliability. The fact is most MANUALS AND AUTOMATICS will go well over 100k with no issues. Drivetrains are pretty darn reliable these days...
 
' "Actually...they do complain." Not many back it up with a manual purchase. check out listing for used BMW 3 series; most are autos.'
Yes, but not all of them are manuals. You'll find the enthusiasts driving the ones that are. As 1487 likes to point out, we enthusiasts are in the minority, though it's a loud minority.
 
"Manuals make plenty of sense in gutless small cars but I fail to see the point in powerful larger sedans. If an engine has plenty of torque across a broad range, what's the point? Take a 335i for example. I doubt the manual is any faster than the automatic and 6 speeds seems largely superfluous since it makes peak torque from like 1600-5100 rpm or so."
Chavis you're not grasping the full picture. Other factors I can tell you that make me prefer a non-torque converter based transmission are stability provided through the corners with the engine remaining directly connected throughout the deceleration, apex, and acceleration portions and transitions of a corner. Another is the control and responsiveness of direct mechanical linkage from pistons to pavement. Just like a more communicative chassis or steering wheel, the direct connection add to the experience and gives confidence. Lastly the control of being in the gear you specify at all times is something I am in no hurray to give up. When I'm following a slowpoke I can upshift more frugally than any automatic would dare to try (because then it would want to do it all the time and people would not be happy) and when I'm driving 5-8 tenths I can grab the next gear at exactly the right time. These paddle shifting automatics really haven't done much for me here, as most of them are slow to react and don't listen to you half the time anyway. DSG sounds promising but isn't widely available yet.

1487,
 
So you basically don't agree about the importance of small cars in North America? An interesting point of view, and I can't say that I agree.
 
Something tells me that if you had things your way, we'd all be driving exactly the same vehicle because anything different is illogical, lol.
 
Good times though....shame the Accord is so ugly.

Come on, Karl. You were biased against this car before you even opened the doors. Complaining about switches, minor gauges and headrests in an affordable performance sedan? Where are your priorities? Like many here, I've owned plenty of performance cars over the years, and, like many of you, I haven't found the perfect car, not once.
 
Complain about poor performance, bad handling and high prices in a car like this, but not subjective interior details.

"Complain about poor performance, bad handling and high prices in a car like this, but not subjective interior details."
 
Why? I don't have to complain about ANYTHING in many new cars. Why does this one deserve a free pass? Because it has a V8? Because it has rear-wheel drive? Because Pontiac finally has something other than a re-badged, front-wheel drive Chevy to offer?
 
Sorry, the market is too competitive. This "almost right" stuff doesn't cut it anymore. If they want to release all-new models and expect the press, and the consumer, to fall all over themselves with glee they have to get it RIGHT, not almost right. That's the curse of the domestics, and I'm not going to give them a free pass just because they are the "home team."
 
Of course maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will sell for over sticker indefinitely and never-ever need incentives. Maybe it will be the next Mini Cooper!
 
We'll see...

Well, technically speaking, it's not the 'home team' since that would mean we are all from Australia. This is a barely-changed Australian car. And I'm actually excited about the fact that it isn't 'almost right' for the American market. What's great about GM these days, at least on the cars that I could potentially see myself in, CTS/CTS-V excluded (which is right on-line, again, to me) such as the Astra (a VXR turbo'd one) or this G8 (erm, Commodore SS/GXP) is that they are basically gray market imports. It's kind of like they're 'barely legal' or something. I find it refreshing. Now, why Nissan never did this for all those years with Skylines I'll never know. Oh yeah, I do know, because the Japanese really aren't the 'home team.'

Mini Cooper has horrible interior – I would certainly prefer Pontiac. I didn't like GTO - too crude and outdated (basically 10 years old Opel Omega that I never liked). I drove manual a lot and to tell truth - it sucks in traffic. But there is no other way to be really engaged in driving the car – if enjoying driving is purpose there is no other way than shift old old way. Manumatics and etc is utter BS - I want to move stick. While driving in the snow manual transmission is critical - I would never trust automatic in harsh conditions.
 
The reasons why Americans prefer automatic: 1. They are richer and lazier 2. Don't care much about fuel economy 3. Consider car as an appliance - where else in the world Accord and Camry are best sellers? They are flops anywhere else. 4. Well because Americans can (see 1). 5. In America cars are more reliable than in other countries, repairing auto transmission is the worst nightmare in most countries.

oh god, you manual people are taking it to a whole new level of stupid.
 
I dont even disagree with karl that much. Its good to know its flaws. But karl like all others in a domestic product now demand perfection so they can catch up... while imports are allowed to slip in qaulity with hardly a note. If its a gm product, bring out the microscop, if its a honda, we pull up the drunk googles.
 
As for the mini... Its easy to create alot of hype if you limit the quanity of a product. the mini is a popular nich, where bmw carefullly controls quanity. And has warpped people into thinking that paying MSRP is some how a 'good deal'.
 
On the stick... Americans consider the car an applicance? wtf does the rest of the world do? they consider them driving machines? Only in america is bmw/ mercedes consider a 'luxury' brand, because they only bring their expensive models over... In europe they use them as taxis.
 
And the guy driving his new opel/ fiat in europe is just as likely to use it as an appliance as is an american. We just liked the idea of manual car.
 
Are you guys going to rip bmw and other brands that are now using electric steering? talk about no connection to the road.. What about cars that have drive by wire throttles?
 
Maybe we should bring the carborator back, this fuel injection stuff gets in the way.
 
And I have never come into a situation in real life driving, on streets, LEGALY, that would push the limits of just about any cars ability, that would require the fine touch of being in excatly the right gear, as a i appoarch the apex of my right hand turn as i'm doing 10 miles an hour.
 
And dont take me wrong. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with manuals. Its just that for 99% of people, they would get nothing out of the 'direct' connection.

The suspension tuning is not the Commodore setup which was sampled by the automotive press down under. GM North America used the wheel tire setup and tuning of the Middle East market Chevy Lumina (not the SS version). I got this info from a friend at GM Arabia in the UAE, and he is the biggest car nut that I know. This platform also has some safety issues. These are not only limited to omitting major safety features (head restraints), but the structure of the car leaves much to be desired in even the basic frontal test (barely 4 stars and significant injuries present). GM makes head units which have volume knobs centered to avoid this problem, but this is not a standard GM Unit. The thing is German sourced, yet was only done for right hand drive (in a car which is supposed to be a minimum change world car). Karl has simply called GM out on this one, and it is refreshing to see members of the American automotive press not sugarcoating their reviews. I've driven most of these so-called "great" new cars from GM, and I can't really find what's so great about them. I really wanted to like them, but all of the damn things had at least one thing that was so horribly wrong as to be a deal breaker. The damn Aura is not the Vectra that we were anticipating (not even close, and the Vectra is the absolute worst of the European mid-sizers). I had a rental Malibu which had crappy thin plastics which felt like they were applied over dried grits, horrible interior panel alignment, no visibility, numb steering (it is called variable power assist rack and pinion steering, everyone else uses it), a trunk opening which is so tiny I couldn't get my luggage in (a rolling boot bag and a ski bag), not to mention that the damn thing (aura too) is as big a full size (though 3 abreast in the back is a no-go), and GM as always can't make side-view mirrors that work on a car (they make great ones on trucks).
You combine these cars with the abysmal average american car dealership (saturn excluded), and you understand why GM is still losing market share. Everyone who is claiming that this 30k domestic V8 sedan is a bargain is also kidding themselves. The residual value of a Pontiac is going to be bad, so the actual cost of ownership is going to be laughable. You could lease a BMW 535 with a six-speed on a lease for about the same monthly payment as a G8 GT on lease (if you actually buy cars for which you can't afford to pay cash), which if you do the math (3 years net cash outlay) makes it apparent that you really should not give the G8 a pass here. Of course, in three years time it will be a great car to cross-shop against a used Corolla, but as a new car it is a huge disappointment.

chavis10 -
 
"ray- thanx for the info. I don't think I read that review from C&D so I'll have to do a search on their site. "
 
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/13548/tested-2007-bmw-335i-coupe-automatic-performance-payoffs-page3.html
 
I don't believe this was ever in the magazine - just on their web site...
- Ray

"You'll find the enthusiasts driving the ones that are. As 1487 likes to point out, we enthusiasts are in the minority, though it's a loud minority. "
 
I dont think driving an auto makes you a non enthusiast. I think each driver has to make that determination for themselves. Its a little arrogant to say that only manual drivers are enthusiasts. I drive in most urban situations and a manual wouldnt be fun for me at all. It doesnt mean I dont like to drive or wouldnt like to have a high performance car one day.
 
"Why? I don't have to complain about ANYTHING in many new cars. Why does this one deserve a free pass? Because it has a V8? Because it has rear-wheel drive? Because Pontiac finally has something other than a re-badged, front-wheel drive Chevy to offer? "
 
Most reviews have complimented the interior. I know you see yourself as the lone truth teller going against the grain but you are off base here. While some may say the car is "average" and should get a pass since its RWD I disagree. Most reviews of this car and the Commodore suggest its a great RWD sedan.
 
The G6 is a rebadged Malibu? Never knew that since they look nothing alike and share few components. The Soltice is a rebadge? Pontiac has two rebadged Chevy products, that isnt the majority of their lineup. The tone of your post shows that you are annoyed that otehr journalists like this car and you are determined to even the scales by telling us the "truth"- that the car is average at best and GM is still making half ass vehicles. You are all alone on this one and everything you stated is contrary to the general consensus on this car.
 
"Sorry, the market is too competitive. This "almost right" stuff doesn't cut it anymore. If they want to release all-new models and expect the press, and the consumer, to fall all over themselves with glee they have to get it RIGHT, not almost right. That's the curse of the domestics, and I'm not going to give them a free pass just because they are the "home team." "
 
Thats funny because Honda turned out a totally "almost right" Accord and you praised it as if it was God's gift to the automotive world. Mediocre styling, class tying power, handling that's no better than the old car, mediocre value- I couldn't quite understand why you had so much praise. Your "home team" comment says it all. You have deluded yourself into thinking the G8 is getting props because its "american' (which is laughable) when the reality is that its a good car and offers decent value. Meanwhile you praise cars like the G35 which offer less space, a harder ride, non adjustable rear headrests and mediocre interior plastics. AS someone else indicated, stop holding domestic brands to standards that are higher. The G35 goes up to $41k and doesn't look better or have better interior materials.
 
If you subtract the double standards and ignore the criticims that contradict what C&D, IL, MT and others have said your review was "almost right". The automotive press landscape is too competitive Karl, you cant expect folks to take your word as gospel when so many sources of info are out here, especially when your anti domestic bias is so blatant. The G8 is hot and its time for you to get over it.

""Why? I don't have to complain about ANYTHING in many new cars. Why does this one deserve a free pass?"
 
I just read this again. A $30k car gets to 60 in 5.3 secs, has class leading hp, has a class leading trunk, registers .85-.88gs on the skidpad, has a better interior than Charger or 300 and most Nissan, has good looks, has good handling and plenty of space and you feel the press is giving it undeserved praise because they all secretly love American automakers. A "free pass" would indicate the press is praising a crappy car that has few redeeming qualities. That is ludicrous.

"That's the curse of the domestics, and I'm not going to give them a free pass just because they are the "home team"
 
the curse of the "domestics"? GM products have nothing to do with Chrysler or Ford products period. GM has produced quite a few vehicles recently that you and others have deemed "right" as far as I can tell. The Silverado, Tahoe/Yukon, lambdas, CTS, Vue, C6 vette and Malibu come to mind. Get off the "domestic" grouping and evaluate each company separately. Hell, half of GM's recent products were partially designed in Europe and Asia. You love "foreign" cars but dont like the G8 which is essentially an Australian car.

“Everyone who is claiming that this 30k domestic V8 sedan is a bargain is also kidding themselves. The residual value of a Pontiac is going to be bad, so the actual cost of ownership is going to be laughable. You could lease a BMW 535 with a six-speed on a lease for about the same monthly payment as a G8 GT on lease (if you actually buy cars for which you can't afford to pay cash), which if you do the math (3 years net cash outlay) makes it apparent that you really should not give the G8 a pass here. Of course, in three years time it will be a great car to cross-shop against a used Corolla, but as a new car it is a huge disappointment.” - vbhoo - Mar 20, 2008 10:11 pm
 
Edmunds does not yet have TCO information for the G8.
The very few G8 lease rates I have seen from GM seem to have low residuals – possibly for several reasons. And they may be accurate. Obviously, there is no G8 resale \ trade-in track record.
 
But.
Compared to a BMW 535, for example:
 
The residuals I saw, when I most recently checked 5 series rates, were almost all right at 60% of MSRP at 36 months. The 550i was 59%.
 
For a 535, typically equipped ( Step \ automatic, premium & sport pkg, and a few other misc. items = MSRP of $55K+, that would mean at 3 years BMW expects that it will be worth roughly: $33K.
 
Pontiac Grand Prix or G6 value at 3 years from TCO \ depreciation tables here on Edmunds show the GP ( long the rental car Queen ) has an expected depreciated value \ residual at just over 51% at 3 years. The 2008 G6 has an expected value at 3 years of roughly 57.5%
 
Picking a number between these 2 values, I’ll choose 55% as a reasonable value \ residual at 3 years. With an MSRP of approx. $33K for a G8 GT with every option, at 3 years we could expect that the G8 would be worth approx. $18K.
 
The loss in value for the BMW is roughly $22K.
The loss in value for the G8 is roughly $15K.
 
Looks to me like the G8 is still less expensive – by a lot.
[ $7,000 is a lot of money, to me. ]
And would be less expensive, even if the number is really only 50% -
That would make it worse than the Grand Prix.
And I seriously doubt the G8 will be worse than the GP, in this respect. . .
 
If I was ** ONLY ** looking at leasing, I would likely choose a BMW.
They seem to have adopted a business model where they’d prefer to ‘rent’ their vehicles.
 
Buying – I see the G8 as much less expensive than a BMW 535i – let alone a ( V8 ) 550i . . .
 
- Ray
Expecting to drive a G8 GT this weekend . . .

rayinsaw:
 
Too many facts. Thats not going to sit well with a lot of follks. I just read that 62% of BMWs were leased last year which indicates BMWs are getting too expensive for most target buyers to finance over 5 or 6 years. As for resale value the fact that VBoo is missing is that the GP and to a lesser extent G6 are sold to fleets in significant numbers. The G8s is likely to be 90%+ retail AND volume is limited which makes Karl's prediction of heavy rebates dubious. Its much easier to sell 40k G8s with RWD and no direct GM competition than it is to sell 100k FWD GPs that compete with about 6 other FWD GM sedans.
 
Going back to Karl's logic for disregarding the praise of this car I was thinking how GM (and the other two) are truly in a no win situation with some members of the press who wont let their biases die. Pontiac has been criticized for not offering cars like the G8 for YEARS. When they field a nice RWD car with awesome power and a low price folks like Karl say they shouldn't get credit for it because its long overdue and their other products arent as good. Logically speaking a critic should take a brand's latest offering as a sign of where they are headed. To criticize the G8 because its "late" in his opinion or because the G5 and Torrent are rebadged Chevys makes little sense. Pontiac gave the public and press what they have been demanding for years and people say "who wants RWD performance cars in 2008?" or " people are only giving this sports sedan accolades because its from Pontiac and expections are low". What exactly could Pontiac do to please someone like Karl? I guess change their name to Honda would be about the only thing that might work at this point.

Karl, you're double talk is interesting. The press have been clamouring for the rebirth of RWD since I can remember. They now have two relatively affordable choices (3 if you count the Charger/300 seperately) that are all good cars. I think you are affective by this whole import vs domestic thing more than most people in this forum. As many have illustrated, the only think American about the G8 is the pontiac badge as the car is identical to it's Australian made counterpart. Same assembly line, same parts.
 
Speaking of a free pass, how does the Ford GT receive one when it doesn't even come with traction or stability control for $150k? Were we all supposed to fall over ourselves because Ford made a fast car that doesn't come with modern electronics? Was this a cost cutting measure to rush this car into production? Talk about wasting resources for some gloried self aggrandizement from a race that happened decades ago. The car did nothing to improve the Ford brand and none of it's technology (or lack there of) has trickled down into other Ford products (unlike like many Vette technologies). All we heard was "Ferrari beater" when no one examined the package on the whole. So you are the primary victim of your imaginary curse as you blindly gave the golden ticket to Ford for a "almost right" product.
 
Excellent points 1487 and opfreak.

good points Chavis and Opfreak. I doubt there will be any more rebuttals at this stage.

Just for that, here comes one...
 
"Speaking of a free pass, how does the Ford GT receive one when it doesn't even come with traction or stability control for $150k? Were we all supposed to fall over ourselves because Ford made a fast car that doesn't come with modern electronics? Was this a cost cutting measure to rush this car into production?"
 
Are you freaking serious?! Do you not realize that 99% of the time traction and stability control systems hamper dry pavement performance? They call them nannies for a reason. A dedicated sports car at the 150k level like the GT doesn't need those things! 90% of them (or more) are sunny weekend cars! That has to be the most absurd argument I've ever heard!

bbechtel- Your points are well taken but the inferrence is that modern automatics do not offer similar control and that is simply not so. GM's 5L40-E used in the first generation CTS and outsourced to BMW was the first automatic that I am aware of with engine braking in all forward ratios. This simulates the a manual transmission's directly connected feel by prematurely locking up the torque converter when coasting. Also, many computer controlled algorithims produce all off benefits you've listed such as PAL and PAS. One keeps the transmission from upshifting after a quick release of the throttle while the other keeps the transmission from upshifting during aggressive cornering. Sure, one could argue that software cannot compare to human instincts (as such with all automatic single clutch systems) but you have to take into account the added flexibility these transmissions provide. The ability to add manual style drivetrain traits at the push of a single "sport" button while maintaining all the smoothness of a conventional automatic cannot be denied. Perhaps the superiority of a manual transmission would've been apparent a few years ago but evolution of advanced automatics has bridged the gap.
  
Take what MB has done with the refreshed 6.2L SL63 AMG. They've replaced the torque converter with a wet multi-clutch system connected to the same planetary 7 speed gearset of the conventional 7G-tronic. Automatics just more versatile. Think of it this way: no manual based transmission shifts as smooth as an automatic while some automatic based transmissions perform better than a manual.

What is absurd is that people will stop at nothing to create excuses for the products that prefer. EVERY OTHER SUPER CAR HAS A TRACTION OR STABILITY CONTROL SYSTEM. Then again, I'm not sure if the Carrera GT featured one but it's no longer in production which is coincidental since the GT is out of production as well. Both were gloried publicity stunts by their manufacturers with Ford's being especially egregious considering their struggles at the time.
  
In case you haven't noticed, many people who buy these cars haven't had any high performance driving experience and judging by the amount of accidents we've seen exotic cars involved in, I'd say they are desparetly needed.
  
Die hard car freaks are not the only ones buying these cars. Plenty of people with money buy exotic cars as statements and 500+hp is dangerous when unproperly harnessed. You make reference to dry pavement performance but have you heard of something called rain? Besides, most systems have an OFF button- activate that and you have the best of both worlds thereby nullifying your point. I see people driving these things downtown all the time and I can guarantee that less than 5% will ever see a racetrack or a proper curvy road to fully realize their potential. Ever heard an E-shift Gallardo stuck in grid lock? Sounds like it's in pain. I'm sure anyone that lives in a large metropolis knows that these cars are driven more often than you might believe.

Er......good points all.......but... the G8 still doesn't have adjustable rear headrests!

lol ddastargly. complete agree.

"Er......good points all.......but... the G8 still doesn't have adjustable rear headrests!"
 
er......if you read previous posts you would know the G35 doesnt either and yet Karl nor anyone else seems to be bothered by that fact. To not buy a car like the G8 because of fixed rear headrests has to be one of the lamest things I have ever read here. And that's saying a lot. Would you not buy a G35 for the same reason? My car has them and honestly the do little more than block rear visibility.
 
When GM removes something its "cost cutting" but when another manufacturer does it people dismiss the omission as unimportant.

lol, 1487, all true.
 
i wont say their not valid issues. But you are right, why is it problem in one car, but not another

It was just a joke, relax 1487....be calm!

I am going to further irritate everyone by saying......blah blah blah....blah blah blah.
 
And, if I want to be and nit-picky....the trickle-down technology from the Ford GT will culminate in the capless fuel filler nozzle soon to be seen on F-150s and other Ford products. I'm awed at this technological breakthrough...and so should everyone else be.
 
If I recall from a recent Top Gear episode, the Vauxhall had a proper gauge cluster on the top of the center stack. Was it too good for America?
 
I think Carl is disappointed in the omission of the rear seat headrests because then he can't install monitors in them so the guy driving behind him can watch Shrek 3 (it's a family car after all) while he turns his rear tires to smoke. (Joke)
 
I think with each car purchase, we have to weigh the good and the bad qualities of the car. If we're willing to live with a car that's less than perfect then we should buy it. If we buy the car and continually be irritated that the auto fan setting is on the wrong side of the car, then spend your money elsewhere. And that is why Carl wrote this entry. Thank you Carl.

I wouldn't claim the GTO as being "floppy" as you put it, but it definately feels heavy. I are constantly reminded of the mass of the car.
 
I'm also saddened by the lack of a manual. The GTO had a good 6-speed that shifted rather easily (except the 2-3 for some reason). That tranny would have been quite good in the G8. But I also recognize the meager market manuals cater to.
 
I for one like the G8's styling. I've come to hate bloby design themes and the crisp G8 really differentiates itself from that. So few manufacturers present sharp, crisp lines. Call it a throwback to the '80s if you want, but I call it the answer everyone was asking for.

Nit picking. It's what people who drive cars they don't have to pay for do. This car approximates (90%) $60,000+ cars for half the price and knobs and headrests are a problem.
 
rear headrest complaints. Now I've heard it all.

I will never buy a car that does not have reclining rear seats, cup-holder and cargo net in trunk! Never.

I finally got a chance to sit in the car today. The backseat is huge and the interior isnt up to VW standards. For the price its not bad though. There are some hard plastics on the lower part of the dash but the top portions and armrests are soft touch. The interior would be better if there were lighter colors available. Overall the interior is superior to that of the Charger/300 which is to be expected. The space, looks and performance of the car are enough to make its Ok interior acceptable in my book. I think this is what most of the press feels as well despite Karl's claims that they have given the car a free pass because its supposedly "domestic". The G8s interior is certainly no worse than comparably priced Toyota products although its not up to CTS or Lambda standards.

but thats the point its not competeing with a cts,
 
and while its lacking navagation. its starting price is where the accord tops out. sorry accord, g8 wins

altimadude- oh yeah, I forgot about the famed capless fueling system. Too bad GM already introduced ORVR (Onboard Refueling Vapor Recovery) in 1998 that is just as effective without the exotic look. This system then became an EPA mandate for all cars in 2000.
 
The GXP is a more focused enthusiast model so it makes sense to offer the stick where the demand will be higher. This is a car that GM wants to fly off of lots and with only a limited number of models available this year, they need each car to be a compromise free decision for the buyer. Besides, the LS3 of the GXP is already teamed up with a stick in the Corvette application unlike the GT's LY6 which may require additional computer programming.
 
I still don't see where Karl got the idea that everyone thinks the G8 is God's gift to the automotive world. I think the overall consensus is that a) the car is a real looker b) it's very spacious with a nice looking interior c) it's unique d) it's a relatively good value e) it's got great performance. Any car that meets those criteria would register as above average in my book. Since "good" cars aren't good enough for Mr Bauer I ask him what cars in the G8's category are "good enough"? He's given praise to the 300/Charger many times and as far as I know, they are the G8's only direct competitor. Sure, they offer more features and a wider range of configurations between the two (which obligatory increase in price) but for the same money, they are neck and neck. The irony is that the LX cars have inherited a few unfiltered MB quirks such as the dreaded cruise control stalk that is easily mistaken for the turn signal lever. I was continuously frustrated by that damned thing in my rental Charger last summer.

"and while its lacking navagation. its starting price is where the accord tops out. sorry accord, g8 wins"
 
I agree. The G8 GT's price put it in competition with loaded Accord's and Altimas and it looks better than both and has more space not to mention the V8 power. I can tell you that GXP model is extremely sharp. The lower ride, wheels and quad exhaust pipes do wonders for the styling. It also has better front seats. Basically its a larger version of the old CTS-V for $10k less. Sounds good to me.

The biggest problem I have with Karl now, and alot of GM Bashers is they now are trying to hold GM to an impossible standard: Perfection.
 
Which is impossible to achieve for all car makers. And while GM produced some cheap cars, the cars they are release now are really 180 degrees apart from what they had before.
 
Karl belives that for them to get noticed again they need to be perfect... I can understand the argument. But I'll disagree with him, GM Needed to get products to the market that were on par with the Hondas and toyotas. And I belive that on their new products they are acheiving that. At this moment in time, I'd say that some of their products are quality wise better then Toyota, a manufacture whos recent past is filled with cost cutting, and quality cutting. While GM quality is improving. Which trend would you rather be on?
 
And while perfection should be the goal... having products that can even compete is a major victory in itself. and GM is doing big things in that deperament...
 
Now they need to replace the cobalt/g5 with a civic quality car, and their general line up will be complete.

Chavis I have to say you made some good points. I read this little bit about the IS-F and its tranny:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/16/first-drive-the-2008-lexus-is-f/
Very encouraging to read that in manual mode the torque converter is locked in all 8! gears except first. Heck that's more direct than my manual driving if you figure that I slip the clutch a bit going into 2nd. I appreciate all this new technology on the automatic front (the $1,250 dollar option ought to be paying for something) but I still haven't driven an automatic that I would like to own/pay more for.
 
Regarding traction and stability control on exotics, my stance is those people shouldn't be driving them. However, as you stated, the fact is they do. So as long as it's defeatable, I guess they ought to throw it in there for the money. But please don't write me off as some sort of Ford GT fanboy. I grew up a GM man, and never cared the GT's handling manners in the racing games anyway. Regarding foul weather, I say SLOW DOWN! And in the case of exotics, most of them don't get out in the bad weather anyway.
 
So I guess I still disagree, but I can agree to disagree with you at this point. Hope everyone had a great Easter!

opfreak,
 
A while back I believe Lutz said styling is going to be one of the prime factors that separates cars in the future and I agree. While many in the press (and CR) like to pretend as if there is a huge difference between the car makes today the truth is all cars within a specific price point are very similar. IN terms of quality and fit/finish GM is nearly on par with Toyota but GM is making vehicles that look and drive better than Toyota. If that isnt a recipe for a turnaround I dont know what would be.
 
After seeing the CTS-V in the flesh I can say that GM's comeback cant be doubted any longer. Forget about this "curse of the domestics" garbage because GM is entering a performance and design realm occupied only by German companies with vehicles like the CTS/CTS-V. As you said, a world class small car will be a key piece to their success and I believe they will deliver with the new cobalt.

I also thought about karls statement, that this car doesn't have style, like the gto.
 
as an owner of 01 sunfire, and knowing people that owned/own, cavaliers of that era.
 
The GTO actually looked like a cavalier. The general shape was the same, the rear end similar. It was wider. But from 20 paces unless you really knew your cars, it was hard to tell the 2 apart.
 
Theres no way anyone will mistake a g8 for a g6 or g5, or a cobalt.
 
The cobalt to me was a disaapontment. Sure it was a whole new platform (n vs j). But the platform was so similar its creepy.

"GM Needed to get products to the market that were on par with the Hondas and toyotas"
 
I think they have to be better if they want to get customers back. If they are only "as good as", what's the incentive to change from Toyota, or Honda, etc?

The Cobalt is an N body?! Same N body as the Grand Am?!

I thought it was delta platform, like the astra

err, i could be wrong about the body, clace was right, it is the delta,
 
mnorm1 - i meant quality wise, they are now on par. as in a gm is a real option now before... where as before, why bother with a gm product.
 
i really dont know why anyone would by a camry over and accord or mabliu these days.
 
and the g8 like i pointed out, a 29k accord, or a 29k g8 gt.... i dont think its a real hard choice. rwd, perfromace that beats the dodge car thats nearly 10k more.

" The G8 GT's price put it in competition with loaded Accord's and Altimas and it looks better than both and has more space not to mention the V8 power."
 
Yeaah, but it is still not Honda. I would rather prefer certified used Honda with cupholders than new G8.

honda is not the end all and be all. the new one is a bloated controlled boat. with a so-so interoir. and extroir styling that was done by 2 blind kids, one in japan and one in america, neither of which knew the other existed.

"I think they have to be better if they want to get customers back. If they are only "as good as", what's the incentive to change from Toyota, or Honda, etc?"
 
Design and performance. GM needs to match Toyota and Honda in quality and continue to exceed them in design and all out performance. Honda doesnt get my respect as a builder of high performance cars since they dont have a RWD chassis. Toyota has some RWD vehicles but 95% of them arent designed for enthusiasts.
 
The Cobalt has nothing to do with the Cavalier, they just look similar. The delta platform is relatively new and very rigid. If it wasn't rigid you wouldnt have the Cobalt SS that IL just tested. I believe a new Cobalt is coming in 2010 and I expect it to be as good as the new Astra will be. Plus we will get the new Astra here for Saturn.
 
"Yeaah, but it is still not Honda. I would rather prefer certified used Honda with cupholders than new G8."
 
G8 has front and rear cupholders. Not sure who said it doesnt.

my bigest beef with the coblat was the fact it still came with the torrsion bar rear end. And looked like the cavalier.... which meant the GTO looked like it too.
 
the civic, and i think corrolla both came with indepedant rear suppension.

bbechtel- I don't dislike the GT. I'm sure it's a great performance car. The only reason I raised the point was because Karl inferred that everyone was giving it the G8 a pass since it's a pro-American V8 RWD GM based product. The GT by far received the most positive pro-American automotive press in recent memory and it doesn't come with any luxuries and is missing a key safety feature. Nothing personal against the car and I wish I'd be able to drive such a thing but the facts are the facts. I bet the most drivers can have just as much fun in a more practical C6 LS3 powered Vette for a fraction of the cost and it's loaded with modern technology unlike the GT.
  
In addition, if driving skill were a requirement for super car acquisition, they wouldn't be able to sell any of them. Let's remember that Lindsey Lohan owned an SL65 with 604hp and 738 lbs-ft of torque. Could you imagine that havok she could've caused without those electronic nannies? As I mentioned before, since automated manual systems have been introduced in these cars, they outsell regular manuals by a wide margin which should shed light into the trend of decreasing skill levels.

"i meant quality wise, they are now on par. " This appears to be true, and I don't argue that point.
 
My point is that Toyota (as an example) didn't steal domestic customers because they were as good as GM, Ford , Chrysler. Toyota took domestic cusotmers away because Toyota made better vehicles than GM, Ford, and Chrysler. For Domestics to take away customers from the imports, the domestics will have to have vehicles that are better than the imports. Being on par is not good enough to win those customers back to Domestics.

"To not buy a car like the G8 because of fixed rear headrests has to be one of the lamest things I have ever read here. "
 
I think that depends on the use of your car. If you are constantly having people sit in the back seats, comfort is important. And if the car is as powerful as everyone says it is, you're going to want decent headrests!
 
I'm 6'2", and sitting in the back of most cars is a huge pain because of the headrest situation. "Built for Drivers" is all good and well, if you never drive other people around.

mnorm1. You see it one way, I see it another.
 
The reason people didn't buy domestics, was they were crap. Honda/Toyota just created quality products.. That overall are lifeless and define the word 'appliance'.
 
I dont really see it as the imports were 'better' its just that the domestic was worse. And quite frankly the quality of most new cars is much much higher then even 10 years ago.
 
IMHO that as we keep adding things to car, and improving quality... we are reaching a point where quality will level off, and problems will be much more one time flukes... Or a component that had a problem from the start. And the difference in quality wont be noticable outside of stats.
 
A rough example.
 
Years ago.
Domesitcs would have say 4 problems per car sold, and japanish imports 2 problems per car sold.
 
today, that ratio might be 2 for domestics and 1.5 for imports. I would say the new gm products might be on par with 1.5 problems per car.
 
to acheive the difference that imports had in the past, you and karl are asking the domestic car compaines to shrink that to .75 problems per car.
 
(1.5 for import, .75 for domestic)....
 
I'd argue that might be nearly impposible, there comes a point where the systems get so complex, and have so many parts, that to get problems down to 0 is impossible.
 
Plus, the diffenece of .75 problems is nearly meaningless to a individual car owner.

"My point is that Toyota (as an example) didn't steal domestic customers because they were as good as GM, Ford , Chrysler. Toyota took domestic cusotmers away because Toyota made better vehicles than GM, Ford, and Chrysler."
 
partially correct. the real story is the oil crisis of the 70s led to the popularity of Japanese imports. The Big 3 had nothing to do with that. They werent experts in small cars because US customers never wanted them. The Japanese made small cars in their home market and were in the right place at the right time. As for quality, what you and so many others chose to ignore is that Americans werent into quality before the 70s and 80s. People kept cars for 3 years or less because they were cheap and people always wanted the latest styles. It had little to do with American incompetence as so many like to pretend today. It had everything to do wtih consumers not caring about quality because they changed cars frequently. When you get down to the facts its not as simple as the Japanese being super smart and ahead of the game and the Big 3 having their heads in the sand. What we do know is that it took the Big 3 too long to respond and they paid a price.
 
Import brands supposedly lead in ONE area (maybe two if we count fuel economy) but GM's vehicles are very strong in design, value, handling and powertrains. In many cases GM is building superior vehicles when compared to Toyota and Honda. In fact I am hard pressed to come up with any concrete advantages Honda products have over recent GM offerings.
 
opfreak,
 
corolla has beam axle suspension and always has. Same goes for Focus and Sentra.

BTW, when people say how imports are and always have been "better" its important to remember that reliability is only one measure of competence. American brands have always been innovators (minivans for example) and have always had the lead when it comes to design. Asian brands have always been good at mastering lean production and copying designs and technology from other manufacturers. Aside from hyrbid synergy drive and VTEC you would be hard pressed to name many major innovations that started with Japanese brands. GM was getting automotive patents before Toyota and Honda were even established carmakers.

"honda is not the end all and be all. the new one is a bloated controlled boat. "
 
What you are talking about? Honda is widely accepted FWD incarnation of BMW. Yes Honda is another name for FWD BMW while costs much less. Now what is your Pontiac G8? Some badly designed clunker from underworld. I want my Honda!
 
Didn’t you notice that even though G8 is Holden - it is still GM. It will fall apart within one year and will depreciate as a rock. You will be lucky to make it survive 100,000 mile and after that you will no other option than to submit it to junkyard – nobody will by thing called “Pontiac”. In contrast ANY Honda will last up to 300,000 without any repair. And even at 300,000 miles you still will be able to find some fools ready to buy it at maximum price.
 
 Honda engineers are superior to any from underworld. Don't you know that Honda also makes airplanes and multistage rockets, let alone most advanced robots in the world? All this technology eventially transfers to cars. Hondas indeed drive like small rockets with high AI robot inside!

i cant tell if savetheland is serious, or joking.Sadly I think serious.
 
But just to disprove STL, look at the edmunds honda fit. That dropped its MANUAL tranny in less then what? 13,000 miles. Wow talk about honda quality. oh and it rattles now...
 
honda and bmw... lol... even acura is not in the same league as bmw.
 
as for GMs not last 100k, what year is this? 1970? my 2001 sunfire, with 111k miles on it starts every morning with a quick flick of the key. And i dont live in sunny CA. Its sat outside nearly its whole life in wisconsin winters. where it hits below 0, gets covered in feet of snow, and in summers deals with 100+ degree days with 100% humidity.

I think Mazda is the real Japanese BMW, like so many others have said. Even heavy CUVs like the CX-9 and CX-7 have very good handling.
 
Savetheland's last paragraph really cracks me up, lol.

My, my, my – this thread has remained active FAR longer than I expected.
 
Some interesting comments.
Some odd ones.
[ Typical. ]
According to an email from Edmunds they now have & will ( finally ) be reporting on a Long Term G8.
 
I will be interested to read their impressions & experience.
Though they will likely NOT try to keep it for 100,000 miles.
( sigh )
- Ray
Still keeping the G8 GT on my Short List –
despite some of the comments here . . .

"What you are talking about? Honda is widely accepted FWD incarnation of BMW. Yes Honda is another name for FWD BMW while costs much less. Now what is your Pontiac G8? Some badly designed clunker from underworld. I want my Honda! "
 
YOu have finally revealed your true level of ignorance. For the record my parent's have a 10 year old Intrigue with about 96k miles on it and its still running fine. The car has had about two out of warranty repairs that werent wear and tear related.
 
Hondas are FWD and thus are not BMWs, period. Honda used to make some of the sportiest FWD products around but now Mazda, GM, Ford and others are offering vehicles that are just as good in the handling department. HOnda has rested on its laurels and it shows. You need to expose yourself to other brands.
 
As for your resale argument- Rayinsaw already addressed that. GM's residuals are better than they used to be and the low volume nature of the G8 is bound to keep resale very respectable.

"I think Mazda is the real Japanese BMW"
 
Sir I have to argue with you about statement you made. Mazda is just another rehash of crappy Ford platforms (like Ford Focus or Ford Mondeo) and BTW - everybody knows that Ford sucks, even little kids. Mazda also uses ancient Ford engines like Duratec 3.0L or 2.3L – how in the world can you even dare to compare Mazda to much more superior Honda with engines derived from latest motorcycle technology?
 
Besides Mazda does not make motorcycles and BMW and Honda accidentally both do. So, Mazda ain’t no BMW, no way - not even close. More - I never heard about Mazda making little environmentally friendly robots. What about robots huh?
 
I didn’t even mention (until now) sweet manual transmissions made by Honda. And will Mazda last 300,000 miles with Ford Duratec inside? My bet it will overlive G8 only 20,000 miles in best case scenario.

savetheland. I almost never say this. but get on that honda rocket, and just blow yourself of this planet.

Wow savetheland you really are one hell of a fanboy. What is Honda paying you to praise its vehicles the way you are?
 
What the hell do motorcycles or robots have to do with anything?? I said Mazda was the Japanese BMW, a statement which was made by Editor Karl himself, as well as many other magazines. You on the other hand start talking crap about environmentally friendly robots.
 
At least Mazda knows how to make attractive vehicles. Honda just keeps creating one styling disaster after the other, Civic, CR-V and the new Pilot.
 
BTW I figured out why you keep mentioning robots. You are obviously one of the infamous Honda robots that you keep talking about, sent here to get people to buy Hondas because of their "quality". Guess you havent heard what happened to the long term Fit.

as for honda quality, they just sent a note to all the 2006-2007 civic owners that if you use your hand brake in a certain way, It might not work.

I was finally able to arrange a test drive this AM.
Brief, but interesting...
 
Executive summary: I liked it. I found no flaws or shortcomings in design or execution that I’d label ‘significant’.
 
Brief background:
I currently drive a C6 ( current generation, introduced in 2005 ) Corvette coupe.
Automatic trans. with the same designation as the G8 GT – 6L80.
It is stock, except for the exhaust.
It is a rather more ‘intense’ driving experience, in most every way I can think of, than all but a very few sedans.
 
The car I drove: G8 GT w/Premium & Sport.
 
The drive: Down a 4 lane, divided industrial parkway – for a mile +, stopping at a couple of traffic lights, at 0 to roughly 45\50 - then through a residential area, at 15 to 35 or so. And back to the dealer’s lot.
 
The initial accelerator response ( drive-by-wire mapping ) was much more aggressive than I am used to, in my Corvette. I startled myself & the sales guy ( ballast ) in the right seat quite unintentionally as I turned right to merge into a gap in traffic. Transmission was in Sport, Manual \ DSC & in first gear. Hmmm. Responsive. And I expect that I could adapt. But surprising.
 
The acceleration was very smooth – and I expect that it would be ‘sufficient’. Saying quite a lot, coming from a ‘Vette, I think. I was fairly gentle with the throttle ( except for that first time ) given less than 25 miles on the car and the fact that I knew I would not buy this particular example – but I found a satisfying level of quickness.
 
The ‘rev match on downshift’ worked very well on a couple of 4 – 3 shifts. The one 3 – 2 I tried took noticeably longer – to decide what RPM to order up? Other than that one anomaly (?), the trans. behaved much as I had expected. Since in my last 4 or 5 cars, I almost never drive in anything but ‘manual’ mode, that’s all I tried.
 
The one other related oddity that I noticed is that in Manual Mode ( Driver Shift Control ), the DIC displayed the gear selected in large numbers, in the center of the display ( after I had selected it via the shift lever ) but then quickly reverted to showing the ‘current’ gear selected in small characters, along the very bottom of the display. I would much prefer to keep that large, central display at all times, at least while in DSC \ manual mode. Oh, well. Or a HUD, like in my Corvette & my last Grand Prix. ( I know, I know . . . )
 
I ran the whole test drive route ( probably 2.5 or 3 miles, at most ) with the left front ( driver’s ) window down a half inch or so, the right rear window down an inch, and the sound system off. Climate control system also turned off.
 
The car was very quite. It seemed solid & well bolted \ screwed \ glued together. No rattles, squeaks, moans or groans – even over a few stretches of deteriorated, patched & uneven pavement.
 
I did detect just a hint of a lovely, V8 exhaust note – comprehensively stomped upon by the stock muffler system. I doubt I could make it 1,000 miles before doing SOMETHING to let a bit more of that tone out . . .
 
I did not stress the handling, at all. I believe the various publications regarding absolute cornering power numbers, etc. I was much more interested in the steering response and feel. It seemed quite acceptable. Though I will require at least a short stint at highway speeds. Before the final ‘buy’ decision.
 
I found the ride very comfortable & well damped at all times.
 
After the drive I opened the rear door & sat in the left rear, behind the driver’s seat adjusted to my liking. Excellent room & very good comfort.
 
I also opened & shut the doors a few times. Seemed solid.
 
Notes:
1 - The tire pressures ( checked after the drive, but likely not much higher than when cold – given low speeds & short distance traveled ) were 36\7 front and 41\2 rear.
 
2 - I took the ‘Vette over most of the same test drive route, immediately after I gave back the keys. This confirmed & re-emphasized that the G8’s ride is really quite impressive. Particularly with the 19” wheels & tires.
 
3 - I expect that a significant part of the ride difference between my car and the G8 is the ‘Vette has run-flats. With rather stiff sidewalls than the ‘Stones on the G8 GT Sport.
 
Conclusion:
I will ( as stated ) require a bit more seat time – at somewhat higher speeds, to make a final determination. But, based on all the impressions posted by the kind folks on this & other forums, I expect that a G8 GT will be my next Sport Sedan. Probably a 2009. In 3 to 6 months. For me, the G8 GT w/Premium, Sport & a Sunroof looks like the right combination of sport & utility & price.
 
I see this as a very impressive effort by Pontiac \ Holden. And a Bargain, with a capital ‘B’ – even at full list price. Though if anyone tells a Dealer sales person I said that – I will deny it.
 
Seriously, I was quite pleased.
 
- Ray
Impressed.

"I didn’t even mention (until now) sweet manual transmissions made by Honda. And will Mazda last 300,000 miles with Ford Duratec inside? My bet it will overlive G8 only 20,000 miles in best case scenario."
 
Please stop posting. Your bias and ignorance is too much to take. The more you write the worse you look.
 
good info rayinsaw.

Good review Ray. You touched upon pretty much everything there is about this car. You should work at a car mag, lol.
 
In all seriousness, though I think this was more informative than Karl's review.

I tried to test drive one last week, but the dealer in my area didn't have one. I will try again this weekend.
 
rayainsw, nice write up.

I have nothing against Mazda, but Editor Karl also said that new Accord is FWD equivalent of BMW 3 series. If have any doubts I can send link to his blog entry.
 
Regarding robots - it is next big thing in technology and companies with advanced robot technology are going to reap all benefits and profits. I would suggest to read article written by Bill Gates for Scientific American:
 
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-robot-in-every-home
 
Mazda is not as refined as Honda and Mazda is not as advanced in engineering, technology and quality control as Honda is. It is a miracle that Mazda still exists. Hands down Honda the best and most advanced car company in human history.

"Please stop posting. Your bias and ignorance is too much to take. The more you write the worse you look."
 
Two words: Pot, kettle.

"Hands down Honda the best and most advanced car company in human history."
 
Thats a pretty bold statement for a company that can't win a Forumla 1 race.
 
This is, of course, assuming you all agree with me when I suggest that Formula 1 carrs are some of, if not the most, technical advanced cars in the world.

Savetheland, I did read the entry where Karl said both Honda and Mazda were the Japanese equivalent of BMW, it was in his Accord Coupe post.
 
Regarding robots - whatever you said is great, but NOT relevant to this discussion. If you want to talk robots join a robotics forum or something.
 
Please tell me - how much is Honda paying you to sing their glories? Are they giving you a lifetime supply of Honda vehicles? That has to be the reason, otherwise I can't see why any sane person would say things like "Hands down Honda the best and most advanced car company in human history".
 
Doug, I'm betting that within five years Honda will focus its resources on NASCAR instead of F1. Toyota was the laughing stock of the Cup series when they joined but now they're kicking butt there and in the Nationwide series so Honda will probably want a piece of the action.
 
Finally Karl, I'm struggling to understand how anything 1487 has said is biased or ignorant. Certainly not as bad as save the land. I've read most of his posts, and they make sense if one is willing to set aside biases and prejudices.

I can't see Honda leaving F1. Its the world's premier racing league. I know America loves NASCAR, and I can see why Honda would want a piece of the action from that perspective, but success in F1 = real racing success.

I wonder what we are discussing here. Nobody mentioned G8 for weeks.
Honda can easily win Formula 1 if they want to. They have the best engineers in industry. Honda is simply infallible.

"I wonder what we are discussing here. Nobody mentioned G8 for weeks.
Honda can easily win Formula 1 if they want to. They have the best engineers in industry. Honda is simply infallible."
 
Have you ever watched a F1 race? This is a ridiculous comment. If they can easy win a race, why don't they? Surely you jest. I don't believe you're being serious.

Everybody: Please stop bating the 12 year old child who has only driven Hondas on his Playstation. If you ignore it, it will go away.
 
About the G8: I suspect Karl is basically right, the G8 could have been great, instead it is merely okay. It is still on my shopping list, but not at the top.

"Two words: Pot, kettle."
 
Two words: grow up.
 
The fact that I dont agree with every critique you provide of a GM product doesnt make me biased. I provide the logic behind my statements which is something a biased individual would not bother to do. For example, I said you were using a double standard by criticizing the G8 for having fixed headrests when the G35 (and LX cars for that matter) have the same and you have never accused them of rampant cost cutting. You jump in at opportune times to try and take a cheap shot at me for a few laughs but you didnt respond to any of my criticism of your position on the G8. Then again, that does make sense because it would've been difficult to effectively rebut much of what was said here by myself and others.
 
For the record "ignorance" implies that one knows little about a particular subject. I think it's pretty clear that I may be many things but ignorant about the auto industry is not one of them. Since I have corrected you on a few things over the years I'm not sure what that says about your level of automotive knowledge.

Notorious GM critics Car & Driver, IL and Automobile Mag along with more moderate voices like MT and Motorweek give the G8 an enthusiastic thumbs up and on the other hand Karl says its an overrated car with few redeeming qualities that is being hyped because is a "domestic" car (even though its made in Australia) and people are rooting for US brands. I agree with the majority of critics that it's a solid car and I am called biased. Does that mean IL is biased since they gave the car a glowing review? Are they as ignorant as I am for not fully subsribing to Karl's opinion on this car or any other?
 
Just curious.

1487- I am not at all surprised that karl didn't address many of the concerns people have raised. It's easy to tell when someone lacks a sound argument because they usually stoop to name calling or other attacks of character in a woeful attempt of embarrassment. You win some and you lose some and this time, he failed miserably- know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. When you lack congruence in your criticisms, it's hard to respect someone's opinion.
 
Just remember, the TT, a curvy $50k Rabbit, is a "great" car while the G8 is barely adequate and simply not good enough to resound with buyers.

This horse is dead...please stop beating it

It seems like blog entries that lots of folks find off base tend to generate more responses. The more logical and informative the entry the less disagreement you find. I think the initial post and the attempts of a few to justify it, along with great interest in the G8 are what led to so many posts here.

"TT, a curvy $50k Rabbit, is a "great" car "
 
Of course TT is a great car. First - it is designed by Audi engineers. Secondly - it has much nicer interior that G8, and has headrests all over place what makes it already better than G8. Third it has FWD which is superior to old tech RWD of G8. It handles much better on snow and has better handling in wet weather too. And then it is Audi (did I say that?) - everybody wants to be seen driving Audi!
 
And BTW Audi won numerous rallies and so on and makes supercars too. And what Pontiac won lately?
 
$50,000 for TT is too much? Who cares about price - it is a German car - you have to pay asking price or you are punished but not owning German car. Want to join club - pay the price. And the last - who wants to be seen in Pontiac?

^^ wow.

This thread is amazing I just finished reading it. The only conclusion I can gather is that to some; an Australian muscle car with chintzy interior plastics, tacky digital gauges, and a truck derived V8 is good enough, and to some it's not. And everyone should chill out.

"This thread is amazing I just finished reading it. The only conclusion I can gather is that to some; an Australian muscle car with chintzy interior plastics, tacky digital gauges, and a truck derived V8 is good enough, and to some it's not. And everyone should chill out."
 
whats amazing is that you could make such a post and ignore the G8's 5.3 second 0-60 time, 50/50 weight distribution, BMW like good looks, huge backseat and trunk, agile handling, accurate steering and bargain price tag and act like the car is totally without merit. Then again, we know your track record and none of this is surprising.
 
Most large automakers share V8 architectures between their luxury cars and SUVs. MB does it. Nissan does it. Toyota does it. Need I go on? BTW, the C6 vette also uses a V8 off the same architecture and yet it hasnt been hindered by the fact that its shared with trucks. The beauty of the engine is that its versatile and applicable to many vehicles.
 
Get your facts straight before you go on the attack.

1487 wrote
 
Get your facts straight before you go on the attack.
 
What facts do I need to get straight?
 
Chintzy interior plastics: earlier in this thread you yourself wrote that the plastics were hard and I gotta say you sounded pretty disappointed
 
Truck derived V8: Is it not a truck derived V8? Earlier in this thread someone pointed out the G8 V8 is not the same one as in the Vette but a version that has more in common with the truck one.
 
Tacky Gauges: Come on even you gotta admit that those digital gauges look cheap and tacky.
 
Read and understand before you go on the attack 1487. You're a real dolt.

This particular blog entry will “fall off” the front page later today, so:
 
I absolutely agree that Karl has a right to his opinions.
And he has a ‘soap box’ here @ Edmunds that most of us do not.
 
Having now driven a G8 GT ( see above ) I wonder if Karl focused on the aspects he wrote about, at least partly, because the rest of the car – particularly the dynamics ( acceleration, ride, cornering, steering feel, etc. ) feel so natural and so balanced? It is very smooth & very quiet – for a large sedan with quarter mile times so very close to those of a BMW 550i. That starts at $60K.
 
High on my own list of priorities, for a car I seriously consider purchasing, are the dynamics – see list above. And Holden \ GM appears to have developed a platform here with rather competent dynamics. Of course, I also care about front seat comfort & support, control feel, clear & straightforward instruments & displays, etc.
 
But.
 
If I can buy a car with something very close to a 550i performance envelope, for $10s of thousands less, I am willing to ‘sacrifice’ a few gizmos ( take my iDrive, please ) and some level of material quality to do so.
 
I believe, right now that:
1 – The G8 GT is a remarkable bargain – even at full list price.
  [[ Shhh - Don’t tell anybody !! ]]
** IF ** your priorities are roughly in line with those of the designers & product planners of this car.
 
2 – Although the acceleration times for the G8 GT reported in the Automobile Magazine comparison test between the G8 & the BMW 550i are rather slow ( less quick ) than those reported elsewhere, whatever was in play appears to have ‘handicapped’ the BMW about as much as the G8. Their time for the 550i is 3 or 4 tenths off what I have seen in published tests. And – the real important point here is:
 
The [ $30K base ] G8 GT more than holds its own in several critical areas – against a 550i, with a base price near $60K.
 
Wow.
 
I do find that ** VERY ** impressive indeed!!!
 
Those here who seem to want to believe that GM \ Holden has discovered some magic process whereby they can start producing a car with EVERYTHING equivalent to a $60K car - for $30K – well, I consider them to be unrealistic in their expectations.
 
To expect that the G8 GT’s acceleration will be roughly equal to a $60K sedan,
AND to expect that the cornering power & steering feel will also be equal,
AND to expect that the ride & handling feel will be equal to what long has been considered a benchmark Sport Sedan ( at least, dynamically )
AND to expect that the interior materials, fit & finish will also be equal,
AND to expect that every aspect of quality would also be equal . . .
Well, I just think if it really was that easy, everyone would be building $30K sedans that are the equal of $60K BMWs. And no one else seems able.
 
In fact, if it was ‘that easy’, I’d expect BMW to be building & selling 550i-s for more like $35 to $40K. Although I expect that they’d love to have the increased sales volume that would imply, BMW are currently not selling new V8 5s that cheap.
 
I spent some time ‘studying’ the G8’s interior. In some aspects, it is not quite up to BMW 5 or Audi standards - in some respects. Yet I think it is only prudent to keep in mind that to find an Audi interior in a sedan of roughly comparable size, with a V8 engine, you’d be talking about the A8. The Audi interior is often considered an excellent blend of style & quality. Some are comparing the G8 to Audi interiors, and finding that the G8 is not as good.
 
But.
 
That Audi A8 currently has a base MSRP of $70K. You would have a fine interior. And AWD. And a much lighter wallet. Your money, your choice. ( Living near Atlanta, I’d actually much prefer RWD and a true LSD, like the G8 GT, to AWD – or to the BMW 5 & 3’s RWD & lack of a LSD. )
 
And although the 4.2L V8 in that Audi is a terrific motor in many ways, the A8 would not be nearly as quick as the G8 GT. And even an A6 ( smaller Audi sedan ) with this same V8 motor starts at $56K.
 
If fact, an Audi A4 ( smaller still, & not available with the V8 ) with a 3.1L V6 and FWD ( no AWD ) starts at over $36K. [[ Edit: The Audi S4 has the V8 – for an MSRP starting at close to $50K ]]
 
I find these to be enormously significant differences in price.
 
If the quality of an interior is the overriding concern \ priority, then a visit to the Audi store may be in order.
 
I personally find the BMW 5 series interior ( I sat in one at my closest dealer for 10 minutes or so, a while back, while waiting for the attention of the CA I’d exchanged emails with ) and I do find the materials & finish to be very good. The styling, I find ( um ) un-pleasing. And items like the automatic trans. shifter in the newest 5, I find ( well ) just bizarre . . . And I believe that I would find it annoying, in the longer term. But these are purely personal preferences.
 
But I digress.
[ no surprise to many, I’m sure ]
 
Let me reiterate point #1:
 
I find the G8 GT to be a remarkable bargain.
 
- Ray
Just my opinion – subject to change without notice . . .
 
Audi A6 V8 test Edmunds:
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=116521

"Chintzy interior plastics: earlier in this thread you yourself wrote that the plastics were hard and I gotta say you sounded pretty disappointed "
 
That isnt what I said. The interior is not Audi quality but the top of the dash has soft touch materials as do the armrests. The plastic on the lower half is not soft touch but it looks fine. The biggest disappointment to me was that the doors feel like they came from a Honda. They lack the heavy Teutonic feel of the CTS's doors or the Enclave's.
 
"Tacky Gauges: Come on even you gotta admit that those digital gauges look cheap and tacky. "
 
The digital gauges are unecessary in the car. I wouldnt not buy the car because of them and if that's the biggest problem you can come up with in a sports sedan like this then you are stretching.
 
I know all about the G8's engine but I don't see why its similarity to the V8 in the Tahoe is significant. ALL of the small blocks are very similar. The G8's 6L is close to the 6L in the trucks but it has different heads and lacks VVT. The engine obviously gets the job done so I am unsure of how the engine is a liability.
 
"You're a real dolt."
 
You are very mature.