Edmunds CarPool

What a gorgeous interior. I have always loved the VW/Audi interiors. Shame about that key sticking out of the dash like that though.

We own an Audi. It's a nice car. Great engine, light vehicle, fun transmission, great use of space. Audi service...it's an abomination. Supposedly our car has standard maintenance just like our BMWs. Hardly. If anything breaks Audi claims that the part is not covered under normal wear and tear. This is just like our experiences with VW cars. VW AG's warranties are in name only.
 
My wife really loves her Audi but she keeps swearing we'll never again go down this road. We'll see... we appear to enjoy getting treated like second class citizens or we wouldn't return to such an awful manufacturer/dealer network. Or maybe they lure us in every time with all the tricks Karl mentioned - the cars feel good and their power/performance/roadfeel is still better than 90% of what's available. Against logic I'm excited about VW's 2.0 diesel and the application of it in the Passat, Tiguan, Golf, etc. Sigh...

"If you're thinking you can win over buyers because your car is "safe" or "dependable" or "comfortable" or even "powerful" you're wasting your time"
 
WRONG. Ever heard of the 268 hp Toyota Camry? It's dependable, comfortable, powerful, has flawed interior construction with plenty of cheapness, gaps and flashing but people love it anyway. I'd say "good enough" is still good enough for the hundreds of thousands of people who still buy Camrys.
 
I also question the look of the A6's interior. The CTS sports a better design and has a more inviting cohesive ambiance. Also, the A8 displays much more symmetry with it's flip out MMI display instead of just slapping a screen at the top of the dash canted toward the left side of the car. The look is rather choppy if you ask me.
 
The A6 is in dire need of the new A4/A5 platform with the longer wheelbase and shorter front overhang. Luxury cars lose their road presence when they have their bumper jutting out 2 feet past the front wheels. Ofcourse I rarely see this car out in the wild. I even see more Cadillac STSs then A6s.

"WRONG. Ever heard of the 268 hp Toyota Camry? It's dependable, comfortable, powerful, has flawed interior construction with plenty of cheapness, gaps and flashing but people love it anyway. I'd say "good enough" is still good enough for the hundreds of thousands of people who still buy Camrys."
 
True, but you conveniently left out the rest of my statement -- "But if you want to MAKE GROUND ON YOUR COMPETITORS you have to have design elements and driving dynamics that are flawless (or close enough to fool/impress the average buyer)."
 
The Camry doesn't need to make ground on its competitors -- it's already the best selling sedan in America, and has been for over a decade. As a manufacturer, why spend the extra resources to beat the competition when you're already beating them in the most important areas -- sales and profit.

"If you're thinking you can win over buyers because your car is "safe" or "dependable" or "comfortable" or even "powerful" you're wasting your time."
 
How has the Vette survived and thrived this long?
 
The media's love affair with Audi is just one more example of how they are out of touch with what buyers want. Audi isn't even amongst the top 5 luxury brands in the US market. I believe Lincoln outsells them. I don't have a problem with Audi but in today's luxury market nice interiors are more or less standard. Yes, Audi does interior materials better than Infiniti or Acura, but generally speaking interior quality is close amongst luxury brands. MOst German car fans feel Audi lacks the panache of MB and BMW and most Japanese car fans believe if you buy anything made by a German or American manufacturer your car will be in the shop every other week. That leaves Audi with a small audience and relatively low sales. Audi made themselves stand apart in the 90s when they stepped up their interior execution but now Lexus, Cadillac and Jaguar (and even Volvo) have caught up and Audi is once again being overshadowed by better known and better advertised brands.
 
Personally, I find the interior design theme on Audis to be dated and in need of a revision. I am disappointed that the new A4 is more of the same from Audi. This current design theme may have looked fresh when the A6 came out but it's getting old now.

"But if you want to MAKE GROUND ON YOUR COMPETITORS you have to have design elements and driving dynamics that are flawless (or close enough to fool/impress the average buyer)."
 
The average buyer could care less about dynamics. When cars make up ground (like the Altima did in 2002 and the Malibu is attempting to do now) its often due to styling, hp and advertising. The Altima came to the market with big hp and styling that was more aggressive than the bland Camry and Accord and people responded. Dynamically, the Altima wasn't even as refined as the Accord but it did not matter. People loved the style of the car and the class leading hp and that is what mattered. Dynamics are overblown by media scribes and self proclaimed enthusiasts who spend their time autocrossing and worshipping manual equipped BMWs and Minis. I don't hear normal people talking about handling when commenting on cars they like. Styling, perceived reliability, warranty and badge cache are much more important to most folks.
 
"The Camry doesn't need to make ground on its competitors -- it's already the best selling sedan in America, and has been for over a decade. "
 
I don't believe that is correct. The Accord was the best seller in the late 90s or early 2000s. Over a decade would mean the Camry has been the best seller every year since 1997.

double post

Not to hate, but maybe Audi/VW interiors have been good so long that they are complacent? Every one I have sampled feel a little dark , uninspired and mundane although definitely not cheap. Maybe I missed the boat when reviewers remark on how great they are. The outside is pretty nifty though

I too think Audi's design theme is extremely dated. The interior materials are nice, but Audis are all looking the same from the outside (small headlights and oversized grille) and on the inside you have a nav system up high with a myriad of buttons scattered below. Plus they've used the interior shown above on pretty much every Audi now, which is pretty lame.

Ok, it isn't just me. I mean it looks good, but it's the same in a jetta, passat, a4, a6, everything

I still like Audi's exterior styling but the interiors need to be updated. The competition has made a lot of progress in recent years.

Audi's has stablish their looks for the market. Some like it and some hate it. Now all car manufactures keep almost the same theme in the interior like Chevy, Ford, BMW, MB, VW etc and the outside like Toyota and some others. All is done to keep prices down and if people like it and buy it you keep doing it.

I have to agree with Karl. Audi interiors really are first rate. I'm not really sure about the design feeling "dated." The A4 design has been around for a while, but the newer design (A5 and A6) just came out with the launch of the A6. My number one complaint with the A6 is the platform, as others have said, is that it doesn't share the rear-biased power distribution of the newer models.

BTW Ray, a full test on this car is indeed coming.

"MOst German car fans feel Audi lacks the panache of MB and BMW and most Japanese car fans believe if you buy anything made by a German or American manufacturer your car will be in the shop every other week."
 
"The average buyer could care less about dynamics."
 
"I don't hear normal people talking about handling when commenting on cars they like."
 
1487 I'm glad someone with your insight and wisdom is speaking for most German and Japanese Car fans, the average buyer, and normal people. You must talk to a lot of people to to know what they want and don't want. You should talk to some car manufacturers I'm sure they would love to hire you as a consultant. This info would be invaluable to them.
 
The Vette has survived because it's fun to drive, goes like stink, and costs very little. It's exactly what Karl is talking about. People over look it's crappy materials and unrefinement because it does that fourth dimension thing well at a low price.

"BTW Ray, a full test on this car is indeed coming." - Karl
Thanks!
- Ray
Watching this space for the test...

Does the A6 even sale? How does it rate with the 5 and the E? I can count on a single hand the amount of A6s I see on the road each week. I may see 8 - 10 or so current model 5s a day.
  
I'm much more excited about the new if underpowered A4. The A6 looks like an old person's car lacking the poise and polish of the A8 or the youthful sporty look of the A4. As a middle child, it definitely needs a personality makeover to gain more attention.
  
German interiors in my opinion still lag behind others in aesthetics. Not questioning the build quality but they look too up tight and somber (ie 5 series). I want a car to invite me inside, not intimidate. The A8 manages this but it's pretty expensive. Slapping a nav screen on the dash and adding Mission Control switches along the console don't automatically make for an inviting interior.
  
Pop-up/retracting Nav screens are the future because it simplifies the dashboard design and doesn't look angry when not in use. Look at the Volvo S80 interior. Highly functional though and first glance, looks very basic and inviting. That's an interior I would call class leading- not the A6. One thing is for sure, once the media begins a love affair with a certain car or brand, the object of their affection can do no wrong.

benson2175: GOOD!
 
Down with sweeping generalizations.

Chavis, one more thing you and Karl forgot about. The current Camry is living in the past glory of previous Camrys and Toyotas in general. Because Toyotas have been so good in the past, customers would probably overlook the bad interior quality. They'll say "it's a Toyota" and buy it. But if the trend continues for another one or two generations, trust me, the Hyundai Sonata and the Accord will overtake it in sales.
 
"I don't hear normal people talking about handling when commenting on cars they like."
That might be true, but if they drive a Camry and an Accord back-to-back, they will make comments about how "confident" the Accord feels in corners. Normal people are aware of handling, but just don't talk about it.
 
I still like Audi's exterior styling but I'm not so sure of their interiors. Especially their dashboards, I just don't find them appealling. Of course, I haven't seen one "in person" yet....... But based on the photos I've seen, I like the CTS' interior better.

"Now all car manufactures keep almost the same theme in the interior like Chevy, Ford, BMW, MB, VW etc and the outside like Toyota and some others. All is done to keep prices down and if people like it and buy it you keep doing it."
 
Not to the same degree as Audi. The Cobalt, Malibu and Impala have totally different interiors. Same goes for Focus, Fusion and Taurus. MB used to share its interiors but that is changing with recent models like S class and C class. Audi drops almost the same interior in EVERY car and SUV save the A8. Infiniti is starting to do this as well and I dont think its a good idea.
 
"1487 I'm glad someone with your insight and wisdom is speaking for most German and Japanese Car fans, the average buyer, and normal people. You must talk to a lot of people to to know what they want and don't want. You should talk to some car manufacturers I'm sure they would love to hire you as a consultant. This info would be invaluable to them. "
 
Look at Audi's sales and then report back to me. Its common sense. Audi appeals to a small segment of the market and its sales reflect that. If you spend any amount of time on car related boards and actually learn from what people say you will find that many folks who current drive Japanese cars are weary of European cars. They will often say they like the style and luxuriousness of German cars but dont trust the reliability. Since you know so much why don't you tell us why Audi has been unable to match BMW and MB in US sales in spite of getting tons of praise from the press.
 
"I have to agree with Karl. Audi interiors really are first rate. I'm not really sure about the design feeling "dated." "
 
When you have been using the same interior for three years and continue to put it in all new models it is indeed dated. That would have been like Cadillac putting the 2005 STS interior in the 2008 CTS. People want to see evolution in interior design as new models come out. I don't see Lexus, Cadillac or Jaguar reusing old designs for new models.
 
"Normal people are aware of handling, but just don't talk about it. "
 
I didnt say people werent aware. My point was that rarely to you hear people say they bought a car on the basis of dynamics. That would make sense when you consider the 40mpg and under suburban driving most people do in this country. If people like the brand image or styling of a car they will likely buy it with little regard for dynamics. I think we also should note that women buy a substantial number of vehicles in this country and few women I know ever mention handling when describing why they like a particular model. One reason why handling isnt a big deal is that most mainstream cars have similar ride and handling characteristics. There was a time when certain vehicles were so sloppy that you might feel like you were going to tip over on an off-ramp but those days are largely over.

"Audi made themselves stand apart in the 90s when they stepped up their interior execution but now Lexus, Cadillac and Jaguar (and even Volvo) have caught up and Audi is once again being overshadowed by better known and better advertised brands."
 
I disagree! Lexus, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Volvo (?) all have pretty decent interior designs and/or materials but NONE can match how Audi brings these 2 design elements together. To me just about EVERYTHING about Audi interiors has a certain degree of craftsmanship that other makes just dont emit, or dont eit as much. It doesnt mean that the other manufacturers have cheap interiors or bad designs it just means that Audi clearly has an advantage in this area.

"To me just about EVERYTHING about Audi interiors has a certain degree of craftsmanship that other makes just dont emit, or dont eit as much. It doesnt mean that the other manufacturers have cheap interiors or bad designs it just means that Audi clearly has an advantage in this area."
 
Have you been in the CTS, SRX, XF or S80? I hope you have if you are going to make such a statement. I can tell you the new Xf is just as well crafted as any Audi. In fact the CTS, SRX and XF have stitched dashboards that are not found on Audi models as far as I know. The difference is very small. I think the S80 has one of the most underrated interiors on the market. Its extremely stylish, unique and high quality. In fact, I prefer it to that of the angular and conservative interior of A6.

The Jag XF dash is very stylish IMO. It's so unique and distinctive.

I was looking at an XF at the weekend, there was one on display at a mall. It was stunning from a distance, but, upon closer inspection, I could not believe the cheap-looking chromed plastic grill and chromed plastic trim (Really it's bad and I like Jags). As a potential customer, I would expect a lot better at this price point. I was so turned off by this I didn't stop to look inside, I know it sounds lame to be put off a new car because of this, and likely most people aren't and may be more accepting, but now I'm a bit dissappointed by the XF.

"Audi appeals to a small segment of the market and its sales reflect that."
 
1487, are you refering to only the US? If not, you're wrong. While Mercedes and BMW sell more than Audi, Audis are still very popular cars. In the two countries I've lived in before coming to the US, Audis easily outsell Lexus. In fact, the Big Three luxury cars are Mercedes, BMW and Audi, in that order.
If Audi had the market share worldwide as they do in the US, I'm sure they'd be out of business.

IMO, I've never been a fan of Audi's. They, to me, just seem really over-priced and don't appeal to the average driver! Granted, I like the exterior of some but that doesn't make it top on my list.

"Have you been in the CTS, SRX, XF or S80?"
 
1487, Ive been in the CTS and SRX , seen many pictures of the S80s interior (boring) and I still believe that Audi is a few notches higher. Stitched dash vinyl, floating center stacks still dont compare to Audis overall design and material execution.
 
The Jags interior is very nice....but there is still something involving the door handle area that says Ford or Mercury. That large aluminum(?) panel going accross the dash is a bit much as it downgrades the rest of the gorgeous interior. I love the center console as its a blend of Jaguars "old world luxury" with a modern, electronic touch.
 
Again, Im not bashing the interiors of the CTS, SRX, S80 or the Jag at all. Im just saying that I think Audi is still a leader in interior design, materials, craftsmanship and execution.

I've long thought Audi was an under-appreciated brand (like Acura) in the segment, but I think a lot of that comes down to marketing over the decades. I didn't grow up with Audi on my luxury car horizon, and I'm betting quite a few of my peers didn't either.
 
Now that I know about them, I'm very interested. Audis strike a nice balance between the luxury of a Benz and the austere driver orientation of a BMW. And I rather like the subtle, understating styling. But perhaps that's why they don't sell as well (aside from the alleged reliability problems and poor service reputation). Assuming we're talking just about German cars, purely ego-driven buyers want to be noticed, and Audis just don't scream look at me. So those guys go for Benzes. Hardcore drivers don't care about luxury as much and go for BMWs or Porsches.

Can't speak for others, but I've always liked the way Audi interiors look and feel. Wish the A4 came with more legroom and fewer expensive accessories, but the interior helps pursuade me to take a test drive. If I could get more length and DGG along with the interior, I might even become a customer.
 
Regarding recent improvements at GM, they've moved up from building really crappy rental cars to building nice rental cars, but in my opinion they're still building fleet cars you buy at a discount used. I still don't have any compelling reason to be the first owner who takes the depreciation hit. There's been a huge improvement beyond the days of the Fisher-Price plastic dash and hundreds of pounds of cast iron hanging out in front of the front wheels, but moving forward doesn't equal arrival.

"1487, are you refering to only the US? If not, you're wrong. While Mercedes and BMW sell more than Audi, Audis are still very popular cars. In the two countries I've lived in before coming to the US, Audis easily outsell Lexus. In fact, the Big Three luxury cars are Mercedes, BMW and Audi, in that order.
If Audi had the market share worldwide as they do in the US, I'm sure they'd be out of business."
 
I am talking about the US market. Lexus has little prescence outside of the US so I'm not surprised that Audi outsells Lexus by huge margines in Europe and elsewhere. Lexus is a US brand created by a Japanese company.
 
george,
 
There is more "fisher price" plastic in the average Toyota than there is in GM's current offerings. You are making general statements but dont mention any specific vehicles that fit your narrative of how bad GM interiors are these days. Are you talking about the CTS? SRX? Enclave? Malibu? Its apparent either you havent been in any GM products recently or you have and are unwilling to face the truth. BTW, you take a depreciation hit on any new car you buy- even a new Audi. If avoiding that hit is your main goal then you should only buy used cars.
 
"1487, Ive been in the CTS and SRX , seen many pictures of the S80s interior (boring) and I still believe that Audi is a few notches higher. Stitched dash vinyl, floating center stacks still dont compare to Audis overall design and material execution. "
 
At a certain point it becomes impossible to clearly say that one interior is better than another. You may prefer Audi interior design themes and that is OK but the cars I mentioned are on par with Audi's in terms of material quality and overall execution. I actually sat in the XF at the NY auto show and I believe you have to sit in these cars to properly gauges where they stand vs Audi. Most Jags have a hand crafted look and feel to them (X-type excluded) and the XF is no exception. It looks and feels very expensive inside and the design is much fresher than the rehashed design in the A6/A4/Q7/S5.

"BTW, you take a depreciation hit on any new car you buy- even a new Audi. If avoiding that hit is your main goal then you should only buy used cars. "
 
Please, you know what he meant! Don't twist things around. He is suggesting that regardless of oh nice the current GM offerings are, they still depreciate more than most import cars. This may change, with time. In the mean time, he doesn't want to be in that first wave of people who beings the change. He does not want to avoid depreciation all together.

"Please, you know what he meant! Don't twist things around. He is suggesting that regardless of oh nice the current GM offerings are, they still depreciate more than most import cars. This may change, with time. In the mean time, he doesn't want to be in that first wave of people who beings the change. He does not want to avoid depreciation all together"
True, but you can find a pretty good deal on a used audi too, and since they cost more, you'd still be looking at a discount. So 1487 was right, in absolute terms you still take a major hit no matter what you buy

And that's ignoring the fact that you probably would be able to wrangle a better deal in the first place

I don't think anyone is debating that anytime you purchase a vehicle (unless maybe its vintage, or something like that), you take a depreciation hit.

Karl - this Audi or a well optioned BMW 5er - which would you buy?

I'd probably buy the Audi, especially if it was my own money. You get more car for your money with the Audi, I'm not a huge fan of the 5's styling, and things like variable-rate steering and iDrive annoy me.
 
The 5 still has amazing dynamics (somewhat upset by the variable-rate steering), but the Audi is very close n that regard, and it wins in those other areas (interior design, exterior design, MMI interface, cost, etc.). You can see my latest blog on the 550i here:
http://66.160.188.111/karl/712

"This may change, with time. In the mean time, he doesn't want to be in that first wave of people who beings the change. He does not want to avoid depreciation all together."
 
It's already changing. Look at current figures. Rayinsaw provided some data in the G8 blog a week or two back. The gap is very close and Audi is hardly a leader in resale value so I'm not sure someone championing Audi should be criticizing resale of GM products. I'm willing to bet the CTS will hold its value at least as well as a comparable Audi.
 
"I'd probably buy the Audi, especially if it was my own money. You get more car for your money with the Audi, I'm not a huge fan of the 5's styling, and things like variable-rate steering and iDrive annoy me. "
 
Exactly. The best part about Audis is that they offer a discount over hyper-priced BMWs and MBs and perform nearly as well while looking better. The new A4 looks far better than the C class to me and will be cheaper and larger than the equally attractive 3 series. There are so many cheaper alternatives to BMW and MBs on the market it becomes hard to justify buying from either brand except in cases when they have a unique offering.

Stretching to buy a BMW or Benz seems pretty stupid. If you can easily afford it, then by all means treat yourself. However with so many alternatives, I just don't think it can be justified. The German 3 are getting their butts kicked as far as interior design goes in my opinion. As much as I love the A/S5 and new A4's exterior styling, the same old coporate cookie cutter interior is a let down. Both the CTS and XF offer more visual interest and the S80 provides a more pleasing and soothing ambiance while the new Lincoln sedan offers a unique treatment as well.
  
I don't like a single current BMW interior as all are plain and boring. The 3 series has to be the biggest letdown in the premium car segment. Nothing about it's interior talks to me- the dash is feature less and the gauges looks like meters from a WWII U-Boat. Nothing inside makes me feel like this car should cost more than $30k. The IS, CTS, G35 and C-Class all spank it handily as far as interior presentation goes. The 7 series is much nicer but still rather quirky without even thinking about iDrive.
  
MB's interior's are just as bad with the S and CL having those huge assymetric hoods covering COMAND, the E class is left in another century with it's low mounted smallish nav screen and huge analog clocking tacking up gauge space. The C class is pretty nice but still too business-like. Audi is the best of the 3 but the bottom line is that the other companies are leaving these people behind from a design standpoint. I hope BMW takes a new design theme while MB and Audi simply need a few fresh ideas to spruce things up a bit.

I am anxious to read reviews of the MKS because it looked very good at the Philly and NY auto shows. The interior appears to be very plush and a cut above what is found in Acuras and Infinitis.
 
3 series needs an interior update.

I agree with 1487, the 3 does need an interior re-do.
 
The window switches need to be moved back to the center console. Take out the cupholders. Remove the stereo buttons and replace with one button for power - all other controls are on the steering wheel anyway. Angle that center console toward the only important person in the car - the driver. Aluminum trim (ditch the pimp-looking wood), as few buttons as possible, no screens, just gauges (and those better be real, not electro-luminescent garbage). Ditch the dual HVAC - the passengers get what you give them. Black headliner again, please. Beige, cream, grey never belong on a headliner.
 
And finally, bring back the proper door handle instead of that horrid bar at the front of the driver's door.

"3 series needs an interior update."
 
Add the 5 Series while youre at it. Although the materials are of high quality BMW interiors seem a bit stark in comparison to other makes. Im not a big fan of the 5s interior design either as it actually seems a bit generic, cold, and distant.

"I'm willing to bet the CTS will hold its value at least as well as a comparable Audi. "
 
It'll be interesting to see. Right now, I'm not sure I'd take that bet. There are an awful lot of cheap, used CTS's in the autotrader around here, and I can't see that changing immediatley even with the gorgeous new model.
 
I was just in a new 3-series, i thought the interior was bland but better then last generation.

You thought the current 3 series interior was better than the e46? That's a shocking thing to read. There's nothing drive-centric about the e9x cars.

"It'll be interesting to see. Right now, I'm not sure I'd take that bet. There are an awful lot of cheap, used CTS's in the autotrader around here, and I can't see that changing immediatley even with the gorgeous new model. "
 
resale value of the current model is not going to be exactly the same as the old one and the old one isn't even that bad based on the used ones I see in the paper. At the minimum I would expect the CTS' resale value to be as good or better than Audi vehicles. Lower fleet sales, better warranties and improved design have boosted GM's resale values across the board. The leases I see on CTS are pretty cheap which suggests high residuals.
 
I agree with HondaAcura's last most. BMW has beaten the bland interior theme to death and I rank them last amongst German car interiors.

"I agree with HondaAcura's last most. BMW has beaten the bland interior theme to death and I rank them last amongst German car interiors."
 
Id say the 5 series has the worst interior design of current BMWs. I just doesnt flow right especially the door panels. The 3 has a better design but its still cold, stark and uninviting. By contrast I really love the interior in the Edmunds LT E46 M3 as its warmer and more driver oriented.
 
The Mercedes C Class design....leaves me a bit confused as the quality materials and craftsmanship are present but the design comes off a bit generic, almost Korean.
 
The CTS has a bold inviting interior. The material quality is competitive and the design is attractive. The only thing I dont like about it is that area around the analog clock. There is too much flat silver trim in that area and it cheapens the rest of the gorgeous interior.
 
The Acura TL Type S interior is nice. Good build quality, good layout, material quality is competitive but the steering wheel is just a big to chunky. I love the execution of the center stack!
 
IS350s interior is actually a very nice place to be (if you dont require a lot of room) as the materials and build quality are top notch. The overal design is decent but it seems as if you sit down in that car. Lexus has been very consistent in offering good quality materials and world class craftsmanship.

I have an S4 Cabrio, and a colleague has an S6. My car has proven to be nearly flawless for three years, the S6 is so new that only time will tell. While the interior of the A4/S4 was the benchmark in 2005, the interior of the S6 has noticeably progressed even further. I will disclose that I am on my third VW/Audi vehicle so I'm totally biased. They've all treated me well. I recently drove a CTS and walked away extremely impressed. The Caddy CTS appears to have improved so much that their interiors almost rival Audi. Still, I just don't think I could ever own a Cadillac as my everyday car. The interior of the 5 series just bothers me. They're garish and overwrought and the exterior (front) is just dumb looking. The E-class/C-class doesn't offend or excite me. The Lexus IS interior is good, although I really dislike Toyota switchgear.
  
In my opinion, Audi has been offering good design for so long, they really know what they're doing. Everywhere you look and touch, you know that your money was well spent. The trunk interior, the instrument lighting, the cruise control stalk, the glove box, the thingy that holds the jack in the trunk, the detail of the engine bay is all finished to a level that suits my critical personality. While they can't seem to build a decent cupholder, Audi details things that will probably never even be noticed by the average Joe. Even today, I'm still finding smart touches throughout that make me happy and reinforce that I made a good choice.

"resale value of the current model is not going to be exactly the same as the old one and the old one isn't even that bad based on the used ones I see in the paper. At the minimum I would expect the CTS' resale value to be as good or better than Audi vehicles. "
 
Well, I'd tend to sa the opposite about resale value and I too would use local paper references as a source. However, since we live in different locations, there are a number of factors that we can never compare. I definitely don't agree that the CTS will be as good resale as Audis, but it will be interesting to see.

" I definitely don't agree that the CTS will be as good resale as Audis, but it will be interesting to see."
 
I'm sure you wouldnt agree about the CTS' resale value. can you provide some reasoning to explain why you are confident the new CTS will have poor resale value? DO you have any residual projections to support your position? GM's residuals have been increasing, not decreasing in recent years so I am lost as to how you feel the new CTS will be no better when its a far superior car to the original and comes with a better warranty and no incentives.

If you're looking for statistics, 1487, I don't have any. Do you?
 
Gah I feel like by even responding I am just beating a very, very dead horse, but here it goes anyways. I love the CTS and Cadillac in general; however, even with GM's increasing residuals, it is my opinion that the CTS will not pass Audi in this area. Despite both GM/Cadillacs recent offerings, I believe they are still percieved as inferior to Audi. It takes more then a few years to reverse a stereotype, and although GM/Cadillac is on the upswing, I don't think its there yet. With specific reference to the CTS, I see an awful lot of them used in the paper, in lots, etc, and they are selling for alarmingly low prices.
 
Again, please not that this is just my opinion. As I stated, I have no facts to back it up. You should also not that I am a huge CTS fan and have looked into purchasing a used 2003/4 model, so I am not bashing the car at all.

"Despite both GM/Cadillacs recent offerings, I believe they are still percieved as inferior to Audi. "
 
And yet Cadillac outsells Audi by a significant margin. Audi isnt even on the luxury radar outside of the coasts. Its interesting how people measure the credibility of products or brands. If we are looking at sales it would be Audi who has some work to do.
 
The old CTS had a price range of $30k to about $44k so resale prices you see could have a huge range. In addition, the car came out in 2002 so I would assume by now you will find some cheap CTS models for sale.
 
Lease rates are an indicator of residuals. Check the leases rates on the CTS vs comparable luxury models to see how it stacks up.

"Despite both GM/Cadillacs recent offerings, I believe they are still percieved as inferior to Audi. "
 
That's exactly right, dougtheeng. In terms of prestige, Audi is perceived as the better of the two. You can't run away from the fact, 1487.
"And yet Cadillac outsells Audi by a significant margin."
In the US, I'm pretty sure Lexus outsells Mercedes by a large margin. Does that make Lexus more prestigious than Mercedes, in the US? The answer is no.

"And yet Cadillac outsells Audi by a significant margin. Audi isnt even on the luxury radar outside of the coasts. Its interesting how people measure the credibility of products or brands. If we are looking at sales it would be Audi who has some work to do. "
 
Cadillac has a much larger dealer network, so you cannot make a direct sales comparison.
 
"Lease rates are an indicator of residuals. Check the leases rates on the CTS vs comparable luxury models to see how it stacks up."
 
The CTS is brand new, so it is less likely to have incensives. Again, its not a fair comparison.

"Does that make Lexus more prestigious than Mercedes, in the US? The answer is no."
 
I thought this might be incorrect. But it is true according to a 2006 survey of wealthy Americans. Top 4 in order; Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW.
 However I found this comment in the article very interesting;
"For example, in this year's survey, Lexus is by far the most referred brand regardless of which brand wealthy consumers own."
 
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/13/003900.html

"In terms of prestige, Audi is perceived as the better of the two. You can't run away from the fact, 1487. "
 
Thats a fact? Thats a matter of personal preference. For most people I know Audi is barely acknowledged as a luxury brand. Audi is certainly not more prestigious in my eyes. Audi just found their mojo within the last decade, before that they were a small time player that barely registered in the minds of luxury buyers. Have you ever seen an Audi that is more than 10 years old? Hardly impressive.
 
"And yet Cadillac outsells Audi by a significant margin."
In the US, I'm pretty sure Lexus outsells Mercedes by a large margin. Does that make Lexus more prestigious than Mercedes, in the US? The answer is no."
 
For some the quality reputation of Lexus makes them more prestiguous than German brands which is one reason why Lexus is outselling BMW and MB in the US.
 
"Cadillac has a much larger dealer network, so you cannot make a direct sales comparison. "
 
Chevy has a much larger dealer network than Toyota and barely outsells them. When people want the product the number of dealers usually isnt a major factor. I believe Cadillac has the largest dealer network out of any luxury brand and still ranks 3rd or 4th in luxury sales.

"I believe Cadillac has the largest dealer network out of any luxury brand and still ranks 3rd or 4th in luxury sales."
 
Interesting....

Yes, 1487, that's a fact. Just go outside the US and ask people about Audi and Lexus. You'll find most people don't know Lexus.....or percieve it as a glorified Toyota and hence don't attach much prestige to it. Lexus is virtually a US-only brand.
Even in the US, I'm willing to bet that if you talk to really wealthy people, they'll attach more prestige to Audi.
 
I disagree. I'd say Audi found its mojo in the '80s, perhaps the late '70s. They had several classic models in the early '80s, like that Quattro hatchback. I think the introduction of Quattro gave them that recognition. Later in the '80s, they had the Audi 80, 100, 200.....these were popular ,especially the 80 and 100.
Maybe Audi started making it big in the US in the late '90, that's why you make that statement?

Here's another interesting fact on this topic: What do wealthy people in Japan buy for luxury cars? (Hint: it's not a Lexus -- or a Cadillac)

"You'll find most people don't know Lexus.....or percieve it as a glorified Toyota and hence don't attach much prestige to it. Lexus is virtually a US-only brand. "
 
Lexus doesnt have much presence outside of the US- I thought we were talking about the US market. I didnt say I personally cared about Lexus models but its undeniable that they are very prestigious in this country.
 
As for Audi, I do not recall seeing many on the road or reading much about them before the last gen A6 and the late 90s A4. They were bit players in the luxury game until maybe 10 years ago. How can you say a brand is clearly more presitiguous when it's barely on the minds of luxury buyers in most parts of the country? Look at any movie featuring successful people from the 80s- when did ever see them driving an Audi? MBs and BMWs were seen, but not Audis.
 
"Here's another interesting fact on this topic: What do wealthy people in Japan buy for luxury cars? (Hint: it's not a Lexus -- or a Cadillac)"
 
The "luxury" brands the Japanese sell here either don't exist in Japan or have been less than successful. I know Infiniti isnt sold over there or in Europe but I think Lexus is sold in both markets. Obviously the Japanese arent as enamored with glorified Toyotas and Nissans as we are. Same goes for Europeans.

"Here's another interesting fact on this topic: What do wealthy people in Japan buy for luxury cars? "
 
I'm going to have a wild stab in the dark and say Mercedes

" Look at any movie featuring successful people from the 80s- when did ever see them driving an Audi?"
 
James Bond drove a couple in 1987's "Living Daylights"

and Ferris Bueller's dad had one too

"Lexus is virtually a US-only brand.
Even in the US, I'm willing to bet that if you talk to really wealthy people, they'll attach more prestige to Audi. "
 
Not according to the survey I referenced above.
 
Karl,
I'm guessing BMW in Japan.

You guys are both right, in Japan it's BMW and Mercedes to impress your neighbor. They don't care for their own "luxury" brands, or for U.S. premium brands.

Mnorm1, note that I said "really wealthy people". Emphasis on "really". The survey started from $200k/year people, right? By really wealthy people, I'm talking more like $1+ million/year people. I'm pretty confident that these guys wouldn't be caught dead in a Lexus....and they'll value Audi more. If they drive a Lexus, it's probably the Lexus SUV that they use for groceries..........they'd prefer an Audi when they want to make a social statement or appearance.

As 1487 points out, you don't see too many audis on the road. To some this is a huge plus. Lots of folk, especially rich folk, like rarity.

blackadder5639,
With that kind of income, I doubt they are looking at either brand. But, I think Lexus, in general, is regarded as a more prestigious brand in the U.S.
 I don't think Audi has ever been at Mercedes, or BMW levels, in the U.S. Also, 60 Minutes nearly destroyed them (in the U.S.) in the 80s with the unintended acceleration debacle.

"James Bond drove a couple in 1987's "Living Daylights" "
 
That movie was filmed in Europe. His main car in that movie was a Jag. You rarely see Audis in 80s movies depicting successful people. The 80s were all about BMWs and MBs as examples of Yuppie success.
 
"You guys are both right, in Japan it's BMW and Mercedes to impress your neighbor. They don't care for their own "luxury" brands, or for U.S. premium brands."
 
US cars dont sell there period so that's no surprise. I just think its funny that in Japan they dont want their own luxury brands while in the US we practically worship the 3 luxury brands from Japan.

"His main car in that movie was a Jag"
 
Actually, his main car in that movie was an Aston Martin V8 Vantage.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Martin_V8_Vantage_%281977%29
 
And what a gorgeous car that is....you guys can keep your Corvettes and G8's - this car is class.

I still worry about Astons from a dependability standpoint (less so these days, but definitely the ones from 20 years ago). However, I agree they are some of the most beautiful cars ever made, and in the "questionable-automotive-styling 1980s" that V8 Vantage was a rockstar. It still looks great, which isn't something you can say about many cars of that era.

"How can you say a brand (Audi) is clearly more presitiguous when it's barely on the minds of luxury buyers in most parts of the country?"
 
Not to be argumentative, but at a luxury conference I attended last year, a survey presented by the Luxury Marketing Council indicated that Audis are owned by more "very wealthy" americans than any other brand. Lexus, Mercedes and the usual suspects also ranked somewhere in the top of the list. However Audi is first, and is clearly top-of-mind for upscale buyers.