I've never quite gotten used to the 350Z's styling, especially in the rear - too much of a bubble-butt. I'd go for the Infiniti G37 instead if I had to choose - essentially the same car but far better looking and much easier on the eyes.

I always liked how this car looks (especially in coupe) but I was really dissapointed when I sat in it. This is not a car designed for 6'2", 250 lbs. I wish someoone would design this type of car with someone above average height in mind!

I concur......this car continues to be a good value and a sweet ride at the same time. They are really awesome with a well done exhaust system.
 
I sold my '01Ranger a couple of years ago that was paid off, had I kept it I'd be in a position to be shopping for something like this as a second fun / sunny day car. I don't want to be without a truck so I'd have to find a way to do (justify) both........hmmmm - might have to rethink things.
 
I don't quite understand why I see them gathering dust on our local lots though - even pre "recession".

Ditto, not enough leg room. Very disappointing, and unexpected in a not-so-tiny car with only two seats.

Meh...This car always sort of lived the shadows for me. I would probably give up a few ponnies and go for the RX-8. I find the rotary engine really interesting and fun to wring out. Sure, the RX doesn't look as nice as the Z, but the interior is a lot better, and it will easily take four adults. The depreciation is pretty poor on the Mazda as well, making it a great slightly-used buy.

Hmmm, both the 350Z and the G8 are both priced around the same level, yet how come it was never mentioned in the G8 blog post what a screaming deal it was?

Mmmm....cause it's not a screaming deal?
 
Of course, when you think about it, everything revolves around the G8. Really, going forward, I think I'm going to discuss every vehicle I drive in relation to the G8. Sports cars, SUVs, full-size trucks. They'll all be looked at throught he eyes of a G8 buyer.
 
Hmm...maybe I should change the name of the blog:
 
Karl on Cars and How They Compare to the Fabulous and Screaming' Deal Pontiac G8
 
Rolls right off the tongue.

i'm getting my 350z roadster soon. gotta love oem employee discounted programs!

Karl, the 350Z is a nice sport car for the price. No doubt. I'm not that carzy with the interior.

" Mmmm....cause it's not a screaming deal? "
 
Haha are you kidding me??? Let me get this straight. A $30K 350Z provides "Helluva Bang for the Sports Car Buck " but a $33K G8 with RWD, a powerful V8 and all that handling prowess isn't a screaming deal? What are you smoking? If I'm not mistaken, the G8 handily beat out the Charger RT which costs $4 grand more. Hell if you want G8 level performance from the Dodge, you'd have to spring for the much more expensive SRT8 model.
 
"Hmm...maybe I should change the name of the blog:
 Karl on Cars and How They Compare to the Fabulous and Screaming' Deal Pontiac G8 "
 
Maybe you should. Or maybe I should create a blog about close minded people ignorant of basic facts.

"Maybe you should. Or maybe I should create a blog about close minded people ignorant of basic facts."
 
Please do. Then you'll have a place to spout your senseless drivel without cluttering up my blog.

"Please do. Then you'll have a place to spout your senseless drivel without cluttering up my blog.
 
LOL you truly are a joke. If you were truly worried about cluttering up your blog, then why are you responding to my so-called senseless drivel???
 
Maybe you failed to read the recent Charger RT vs. G8 comparison, where the Charger got smoked. Specifically, you forgot to read one of the last lines.
 
The G8 GT's $32,745 price is a flat raging bargain
 
But then again, I wouldnt expect you to acknowledge things that go against your biases. A $30K 350Z is a bargain relative to its class while the $33K G8 isnt?? Please, gimme a break.

Why are you discussing the G8 vs Charger on a 350Z post?
 
"LOL you truly are a joke. If you were truly worried about cluttering up your blog, then why are you responding to my so-called senseless drivel???"
 
Don't worry, won't happen again.

Okay you two, put 'em back in your pants!
   
I've never warmed up the the Z. The 90s Z was one of my favorite cars of all time, I love the idea... but the execution of the 350 was clumsy. Sub-Zero style door handles, heavy handed front styling, a chintzy interior. The G is much more to my liking. Even with the significant premium that the G35 costs, I see a lot more of them on the road.

"Don't worry, won't happen again."
 
By responding to my previous post you just cluttered up your precious blog even more.
 
Why am I discussing the Charger vs. G8 on a 350Z post?? Very simple, see if you can follow along and maybe it will enlighten you. In this blog post you are oozing praise over the 350Z for being a bargain at $30K. I dont disagree with that. However bargains are relative, and a car can only be called a bargain if it is cheaper than its competitors while offering more fun, handling, etc.
 
So my main point boils down to this. If the 30 grand 350Z is a bargain compared to its competitors, (say the Mustang and RX-8) , how is the $33K G8 NOT a bargain compared to the slower and more expensive Charger? You are refusing to admit facts, namely the fact that the cheaper G8 totally smoked the Charger in a recent comparo, and that the writer of the article called the G8 a flat raging bargain.
 
Like I said, I was pretty shocked when you made no mention of the price of the G8 in your original blog post, but maybe you forgot to include that. But the fact that you are denying that the G8 is a bargain is downright laughable.
 
Another thing - for someone who is traditionally interior plastic obsessed, I was pretty surprised to not hear you complain about the 350Z's interior on this blog post. But that's a different story I guess.........

ANYWAY...
 
I like Sabastian's note about the RX-8. I agree it's better looking and while I've never driven a Z, I did get to drive an RX-8 (like I stole it!) at a Mazda Zoom Zoom Live event and it was just fantastic. (Tooting my own horn, I won the best lap time of the entire weekend in the Mazdaspeed6.) More practical than the Z, and while it uses up some oil, the Nissan had some reliability issues did it not? RX-8 starts below $30K as well.
 
Y'all had an RX-8 long termer as well, right? I should go back and read up on them both. Karl, care to share a quick note about how those two compare?

"Of course, when you think about it, everything revolves around the G8. Really, going forward, I think I'm going to discuss every vehicle I drive in relation to the G8. Sports cars, SUVs, full-size trucks. They'll all be looked at throught he eyes of a G8 buyer. "
 
Dont get defensive. His point is valid. In fact the G8 is about as fast as the 350Z while being much larger and offering seating for five adults. You jumped on Daytona's back but didnt clarify why the G8 wasn't a deal when the 350Z is one in your eyes. Do you have any justification for your stance? Furthermore, the 350Z isnt loaded at $30k- the car goes up to about $40k with all the options which makes it substantially more expensive than the G8 GT which offers similar acceleration. Of course the real advantage for the 350Z is that it has a Nissan badge which the G8 can never have.
 
thats the thing about double standards- its so hard to maintain credibility when you use them so frequently. 300hp RWD Nissan coupe with great handling and cheap interior is great bargain but a $33k 361hp RWD Pontiac with great handling and OK interior is an example of everything that is wrong with Detroit. Makes no sense whatsoever.
 
I love it: anyone who doesn't agree with you is "cluttering up" your blog. Here's a tip, don't blog if you don't want to read the opinions of others. But if you can't counter with any logic it's always best to resort to name calling and smart aleck responses that ignore the facts.

PS:
 
How ironic is it that the 350Z is so lauded when it has an interior full of the type of hard plastics that Karl usually derides when found on domestic vehicles.

Thank you 1487. Personally I dont care too much about plastics in a car, its like you're running your fingers over them all the time, at least I would hope not. But since plastic quality is something to Edmunds editors, I find it curious that the the quality of the 350Z's interior was completely glossed over.

Plastic quality is important for certain vehicles- mostly those with domestic badges. Nissan and Toyota make plenty of cars with hard plastics (not that I care) and no one seems to notice. Interestingly enough Karl has been a fan of the Chrysler LX cars and they have been known for subpar interiors. The G8s interior (I sat in it at NY auto show) is superior to that of the Charger so I can't see how the Charger gets a thumbs up from Karl while the G8s gets blasted for being below average. Then again, I believe he is a fan of Mopar muscle cars from the 60s and 70s so that may explain the bias there.

daytona,
 
I was just reading that initial exchange between you and KB and I am trying to figure out what exactly was "senseless" about your drivel. Your points were valid and make perfect sense to anyone who thinks logically. Not sure what was confusing or irrational about your stance on what constitutes a deal in the $30k price range.

Don't you two find it unreasonable that every post should cover absolutely every aspect of a car? These blogs are a 3 or 4 paragraphs at the most. Its not reasonable to have a checklist, making sure Karl mentioned absolutely everything to do with the car. That fact that he didn't touch on price isn't the end of the world.
 
Also, a note on facts: Do you honestly believe that a few numbers explain the life and soul of a car? Far too many people who comment in these blogs base their opinions solely on tangible values: 0 to 60, skidpad, etc.
 
If the measure of a vehicle is truely its numbers, then why does a website like InsideLine exist and, perhaps more importantly, why do you read it? You can get all the numbers you want from carpoint.com, and sleep much better at night knowing the facts.
 
You cannot put a numerical value on what Karl refers to as "perma-grin".
 
Also, I'm curious: 1487 and Daytono, have you driven a G8? This is not a criticism, I'm just genuinely curious.
 
edit: for spelling

I think his point is that the Z is worthy of mentioning in the same breath as a Boxster, and that's impressive for half the price. He did note the budget interior and a couple of other practical issues like cargo space. But it's purpose is to be a sports car.
 
Meanwhile, regarding the G8 : "...'fine' dynamics, decent interior materials and bizarre/annoying ergonomics equate to a car that I don't hate, but don't really like, either."
 
Perhaps if it was a stunning performer it would be easier to overlook its shortcoming. But it's easier to overlook practical considerations in a two-seat sports car than in a large family sedan. And being better than the (enormous and outdated) Charger isn't a tremendous feat. Sure the G8 is a very nice car. Even a very good deal for $32K fully loaded, I won't argue with that. But that doesn't make it a "bargain 5-series".
 
Not trying to be argumentative, just stating the case as I understand it. He simply likes the Z as a sports car more than the likes the G8 as an alleged sports sedan.

dougtheeng,
 
No, unfortunately I have not driven the G8. Sure wish I could though.
I fully agree a car is more than just numbers, obviously there are things that you cant quanitfy. But that is not what I'm really talking about.
 
Doug, my point is simply this. I dont expect a blog post by Karl to cover every SINGLE aspect of the car. A good blog post should cover the highlights of a vehicle. But all this controversy started when I mentioned what a deal the G8 was, and he vehemently denied it. The writer of the Charger vs. G8 comparison proclaimed the G8 to be a bargain, so did a reader who blogged on the G8 post. So why is it that Karl seems to think the G8 is NOT a relative bargain for $33k, yet the 350Z is a bargain for $30K?
 
I'm not criticising him for not talking about the price in the original G8 blog post. Certainly price is a huge factor in buying a car and if it were me I would have touched upon what a bargain the car is. I'm just wondering why he continues to DENY blindly the fact that the G8 is a bargain without ANY supporting facts? Instead he calls what I'm saying senseless drivel. From the editor in chief of an online car website, that is completely childish.
 
In the end it comes down to this. KB prove me wrong, or move along.
 
And I guess with that we're all expected to end talk of the G8 right now, because it will "clutter his blog" and we're only talking "senseless drivel" anyways.

"He simply likes the Z as a sports car more than the likes the G8 as an alleged sports sedan."
 
Good job summing it up, hightower. I wanted to make a statement like this, but it didn't really come together.

I'd personally love to own a G8 GXP, but I'm sure that's nothing new around these parts. I'll give GM this: their product certainly seems to be generating some excitement.
  
That said, my Dad and I did once go test-drive a Nissan 350Z. Unfortunately, neither of us were impressed. The car is purpose-built, but this translates into a design that is frankly not for everyone. There's little storage space, as Karl mentions, and the rearward visibility is horrid. Visibility forward wasn't all that impressive as I recall either, and the way the cabin wraps around you wasn't all that comfortable. I also wasn't a fan of its clunky short-throw shifter. In my experience, it was certainly sporty, and it could handle. But it felt like it traded away too much to meet its given price point.

I think Karl would look at the G8 more favorably if he could drive one with a clutch.

I wish sports cars used limited slip differentials. It seems every company uses an open diff. This car in particular could benefit from one.
 
Edit: Personally, I'd compare the 350Z to the S2000. They are completely different beasts, but the pricing is right and the intent is the same.

Two door, two seat sport coupe being compared to a 4 door family sedan makes little sense at all after reading the content of the 350Z entry.
I could understand the Solstice as a point of comparison, the G8 is ridiculous as it for a completely different buyer.
What is the point of being so darn argumentative and inflammatory Daytona and 1487?
Does every entry have mention a GM product? I'm a fan of the G8, this is not the time or place to discuss it.

moparbad,
 
Get this straight. I'm not compariing a G8 to a 350Z. I'm asking why a 350Z is a bargain and a G8 is not. I think that is a valid question considering this blog entry isnt about the 350Z's styling, interior materials, or its age. This blog entry is about what a value the 350Z is, plain and simple. That's all. Apparently asking questions is senseless drivel to Karl, and if you dont agree with him you shouldnt be cluttering his blog.
 
If Karl thinks the G8 isnt a bargain, fine. But at least he could enlighten us as to why it isnt. Instead his posts have been extremely childish and not what you would expect from the Editor in Chief of a respected car website.
 
moparbad none of my remarks have been inflammatory. KB is the one who has made this personal with his childish remarks. I guess I shouldnt be surprised because he did insult 1487 on the G8 blog as well.
 
moparbad, if you're a fan of the G8 then you know that it's a total bargain, yet Karl cant bring himself to admit that fact.

350Z is a bargain two door, two seat, sports car. G8 is not.

The Z looks good in that color.

moparbad the G8 is a four door, five seater sports sedan costing $33K. That is not a relative bargain? Yep, you and KB must be smoking the same thing.

daytona,1487, dont tell karl, that the gt actually starts at like 29k. They might ban you from around here.
 
And the point is, why was the g8 bashed for doing just about everything the 350z does in its class, and a similar price?
 
Answer: because karl has a hate for gm, and is upset at the radio controls

"Also, a note on facts: Do you honestly believe that a few numbers explain the life and soul of a car? Far too many people who comment in these blogs base their opinions solely on tangible values: 0 to 60, skidpad, etc. "
 
Have you read anything about the car? If you had you would know it has been praised for its engine, brakes and handling. I dont know what else it should be praised for as a RWD sedan. While numbers dont always tell the story it must be noted that sometimes they do.
 
BTW, the 350Z has been known to post some impressive numbers at the test track.

"Perhaps if it was a stunning performer it would be easier to overlook its shortcoming. But it's easier to overlook practical considerations in a two-seat sports car than in a large family sedan. And being better than the (enormous and outdated) Charger isn't a tremendous feat. Sure the G8 is a very nice car. Even a very good deal for $32K fully loaded, I won't argue with that. But that doesn't make it a "bargain 5-series".
 
No offense but have you done any research on the G8 prior to making that comment? At least read up on the car before defending Karl and trying to tell others they are mistaken. Automobile mag said t he G8 was likea 550i with a $30k discount. They had nothing but praise for the car in their comparo article featuring a $70k 550i.
 
Try this on for size: not only is the G8 better than the Charger, it offers dynamics and performance similar to that of the STS, M45 and 550 for thousands less while offering more backseat space and trunk space while acheiving slightly better EPA mileage. I think that is just as impressive as the 350Z offering boxter type performance.
 
"350Z is a bargain two door, two seat, sports car. G8 is not."
 
G8 is a bargain four door, 5 seat sports sedan. What is your point? Plus, $30k is merely the starting point for the 350Z- it can get much more expensive with all the options. I'd buy a Vette before I paid $40k for a Nissan two seater.
 
"Does every entry have mention a GM product? I'm a fan of the G8, this is not the time or place to discuss it."
 
The answer to your question is "no". If you think every blog entry becomes a discussion about a GM product you obviously haven't been reading all of the entries. I believe Daytona posed the question since this entry came a few days after the G8s entry and since the cars are similar in price it makes sense to question how KB defines "bargain" when it comes to cars. Anytime one adult doesn't agree with another you don't have to assume someone is being "aggressive" or "inflammatory". It seems to me that Daytona posed a reasonable question and responded appropriately after he got an insufficient and insulting response. Anyone who can dish it out better be able to take it if you ask me. Unfortunately dissenting views are more welcome in Communist China than they are on this blog at times. Instead exchanging ideas it appears were are expected to listen and learn from a true authority on all matters automotive and environmental.

I understand that some publications think the G8 compares favorably to the 5-series and M45. Karl doesn't think so, as evidenced by his previous posts on it.

Nissan 350Z -- Bargain for two door, two seat coupes (convertibles) with 6 cyl engine, rear wheel drive and a modest amount of luggage space.
 
Pontiac G8 -- Bargain sedan with four doors, seating for five people, a V8, rear wheel drive and the need for it to come from a domestic nameplate.
 
Mazda Miata MX-5 -- Bargain coupe, two seat roadster with 4 cyl engine, go-cart handling and fun factor.
 
Oh yeah, there's also the Porsche Boxter, Mini Cooper, BMW 1 Series, BMW M3, etc...the list is endless with other cars that fit within each category. What Carl was saying was that the 350Z is a sports car, not a fast family car that you put a baby seat in. I don't see many 350Z with a baby seat in the front seat.
 
It's why the manufactures benchmark similar cars while developing certain models. You don't compare your Corvette with an M5 or a S2000 with a Bentley.

Thank you for speaking up 1487. At least one person here understand what I'm saying.
 
It seems like this war of words erupted when I questioned how the 350Z is a bargain sports coupe, but the G8 isnt a bargain sports sedan when an Edmunds comparo said the same thing. All I am interested in knowing is his criteria for a relative bargain. KB decides to make it personal with his sarcastic remarks and calling what I said to be "senseless drivel". And then he goes on and talks about me cluttering his precious blog. FWIW KB, it's pretty pathetic, not mention unprofessional for the editor of a car website to be saying things like that to readers who have merely voiced their opinion and are asking simple questions. If people posting comments in this blog is "clutter" according to you, maybe you can start a new blog tomorrow called "Karl on California" and talk about the weather or things like that. I can assure no one will be interested in posting comments on weather, saving you the dreaded "clutter".
 
BTW KB still failed to answer how the G8 is not a bargain. To be honest however I dont expect him to because he has nothing to back it up. Maybe someone else can answer that question for me.
 

daytona_500: I agree with you. and on this issue karl has alot of double talk. He should just come out and say it. He hates the G8.
 
And just leave it at that... Its the direct oppsite of opinion of just about every other auto journalist that reviewed the car, including other edmunds writers.
 
But if he came out and said that, he'd be more right, then in justify the hate by the radio knob being in the wrong spot, and the missing rear head rests.

1487:
 
I don't know if you missed my question, or if you ignored it (though you quoted the first half of that post, so I'm guessing you didn't miss it).
 
Have you driven a G8?

Also:
 
"Have you read anything about the car? If you had you would know it has been praised for its engine, brakes and handling. I dont know what else it should be praised for as a RWD sedan. While numbers dont always tell the story it must be noted that sometimes they do. "
 
Don't be stupid, obviously I have read something about this car. And no, there is no situation where numbers always tell the story. It is foolish to think otherwise. If numbers always told the story, there would be no websites like Insideline, test drives would not exist, and we'd all drive the same car.

We all have our opinions to which we are entitled. Karl posted his on what he thought of the 350Z. If you don't agree with what he said, so be it. No need to put him on trial for not seeing what the G8 has to offer. Besides, it's not like this discussion will solve any real problem like high gas mileage....

"Have you driven a G8?"
 
Most of us have not driven the G8. It just went on sale a few weeks ago. Why do you ask? If you are suggesting that I can't comment on it because I haven't driven it I would say I disagree on the basis that we have a wide range of reviews about the car available right now. I have read almost every review of the G8 that has been published and the impressions have been positive.
 
"No need to put him on trial for not seeing what the G8 has to offer. "
 
When you deride others for disagreeing with you and come off with a total lack of hubris you tend to get strong reactions from people. Let's not act like this is all unprovoked.

"If you are suggesting that I can't comment on it because I haven't driven it I would say I disagree on the basis that we have a wide range of reviews about the car available right now."
 
I'm not suggesting anything. I ask out of curiosity.
 
I, for one, would never draw such absolute conclusions from something I have never experienced. I hope when you do drive it, that you can look at it objectively.

"I, for one, would never draw such absolute conclusions from something I have never experienced. I hope when you do drive it, that you can look at it objectively."
 
You can take my opinion out of this altogether. Fact of the matter is almost every car reviewer who has driven and written about the G8 has been impressed. I fail to see how 5 reviews by KB's peers should be disregarded simply because he doesn't like Pontiacs. I am not in the market for a large RWD sedan but I would have to say the car would have to have major defenciencies for me to be turned off after one test drive when you consider the price, performance, styling and space.

I had to double check I was reading a thread on the Z car. For a moment I thought the discussion was on the G8.
 
I do not believe that the 350Z is such a wonderful value. For a car that costs well north of $30k, has been plagued with engineering and design defects, has an interior that resembles a twenty year old French car, and is visually unrefined, it's no wonder the responses to this review are so heated. Whatever. It's a sports car, so the purchase is emotional, not practical. It's not entirely about value.
 
Let's be honest, the G8 isn't exactly automotive perfection either. But it is a more practical performance car, it will appeal to a lot more people.

Nissan, not Pontiac.
350Z, not G8.
I went to Nissan dealer and there was not a G8 to be found, so I could not drive it. There was a 350Z and having driven it I can confidently state that the ergonomics on the G8 require much improvement.

^^ ??

The original points of contention have nothing to do with the G8 vs 350Z. They have everything to do with Karl's notorious double standards that completely defy logic. He holds certain cars to one standard and others to unachievable standards. His praise for this 350Z just goes to show how off base he really has become. This is the same guy who can't complete a domestic review without mentioning hard plastics and apparent cost cutting yet fails to mention these same flaws in vehicles he likes.

"The original points of contention have nothing to do with the G8 vs 350Z. They have everything to do with Karl's notorious double standards that completely defy logic. He holds certain cars to one standard and others to unachievable standards. His praise for this 350Z just goes to show how off base he really has become. This is the same guy who can't complete a domestic review without mentioning hard plastics and apparent cost cutting yet fails to mention these same flaws in vehicles he likes."
 
You're right. I'm completely out to lunch. You and your totally unbiased, domestic-loving cohorts should obviously stop reading (and posting on) my blog. Please, save yourselves from the lunacy that is the biased, fact-denying, double-standards holding, "domestic-hating" Karl!!! (this would be the same Karl who owns four cars -- all of them domestics)
 
No, I mean it. Please -- save yourselves!! (and the rest of us)

How about that chavis. Karl finally decides to repond to one of our posts yet he STILL hasnt explained his way of thinking, or what he classifies a bargain. He still resorts to the same old method of sarcasm to change the subject. Better not post againt chavis, because he doesnt like "senseless drivel cluttering his blog".

Wow, you guys need to switch to decaf.

"You're right. I'm completely out to lunch. You and your totally unbiased, domestic-loving cohorts should obviously stop reading (and posting on) my blog. Please, save yourselves from the lunacy that is the biased, fact-denying, double-standards holding, "domestic-hating" Karl!!! (this would be the same Karl who owns four cars -- all of them domestics) "
 
LOL! The hits just keep on coming. Just for clarity it should be noted that anyone that doesn't agree with you isn't necessarily a "domestic loving cohort". I believe Chavis drives a Mazda 3 based on comments he has made in the past. BTW, some folks (more than you care to acknowledge) agree with much of what has been said here and in other blogs. I know it's shocking, but there are folks out there that don't share your views.
 
You can throw around your domestic car ownership if you want to, but I have been around long enough to know that you have made it clear that you have no love for GM products and believe the few domestics worth praising are made by Chrysler and Ford. I believe two of your domestics are muscle cars, one was a cheap Malibu that was owned by Edmunds and the other is a rare $150k Ford that has nothing in common with other Ford products. The Devil is always in the details. Two cars that arent in production, one that was very rare and expensive and another that you settled for because it was available for cheap. That said, it is strange that you have so little positive to say about domestic vehicles when you own four.
 
All name calling aside, the points raised by Daytona and others in this blog no not show any bias. Bias is when you declare one product superior to another with no factual basis. I don't recall Daytona saying you should praise the G8 because he is a Pontiac fan. He merely said it should get its due just as the 350Z got credit for being a performance bargain. Where is the "pro domestic" bias in that?
 
You are getting caught up in personalities instead of the validity of the points being raised. We understand you don't like those who fail to agree with everything you say, but don't let that influence your perception of the points being made here. Again, anyone who dares offer a view counter to yours isn't biased. The only thing I am biased against is unrestrained hyperbole and opinions that are passed off as facts. Your opinion of the G8 is that its a supbar effort typical of the General. The fact of the matter is that its a styling, fast, large, affordable RWD sports sedan that has gotten rave reviews.

LOL, Karl! Amen, clace.

Suby, the sad part is that I agree with 1487, chavis and daytona, but no matter what they say, it isn't changing Karl's mind. I've resigned myself that when it comes to the automotive press, i just have to read with a grain of salt. That means my favrorite team will always lose in the end. Maybe it comes from my other life as a cleveland sports fan...sigh

"Karl finally decides to repond to one of our posts yet he STILL hasnt explained his way of thinking, or what he classifies a bargain."
 
And you won't address my repeated question: WHY ARE YOU READING MY BLOG? You're great at calling me names and questioning my ability to accurately evaluate a car - BUT YOU KEEP READING ANYWAY.
 
There are plenty of GM Fan Sites out there waiting to reinforce your views of how domestics are great and how it's just the mean old biased automotive press that picks on them for no reason.
 
Guys, I'm not that desparate for page views -- it's okay if you want to leave and never come back. Really, it is!!
 
Of course if you want to stay, that's fine. But I'll keep reporting on these cars with the same "bias" I've been using since this blog launched, so deal with it.
 
Or continue to read and continue to whine about it. I don't care -- and starting now I won't even know about it. I'm already not aware of certain self-delusional commenters. Adding to the list is easy.

"Again, anyone who dares offer a view counter to yours isn't biased. "
 
1487, anyone could also write this comment about you. Anyone who contradicts you is a Honda loving Asian car maniac.
 
Get off your soapbox, your opinion doesn't speak for half as many people as you think it does. The vast majority of the comments you write in these blogs (Karl's, and others) result in a large number of responses arguing against your opinions. I don't know how you can throw around "we" when you are so alone for so much of the time.
 
"I've resigned myself that when it comes to the automotive press, i just have to read with a grain of salt."
 
clace, I think its fair to say that with any type of press, automotive or not, you should take what they say with a grain of salt :)

clace- I'm not a daily coffee drinker. Just calling a spade a spade.
  
Thanks 1487- I'm on my 2nd Mazda in 3 years although I secretely belong to a Bob Lutz worshipping cult. Keep that between you and I.
  
The issue is not with import versus domestic- the issue is reporting with double standards. Karl seems to be a bright person and a good writer, but some of us will simply call it like we see it. Isn't that the point of a blog? If Karl wants everyone to agree with him, perhaps he should open a private page which requires a membership fee. That way he wouldn't have to worry about people like me running off at the mouth spewing the poison known as logic. My advice would be to get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. We all like cars which is why we are here.
  
Water under the bridge.
  
Onto the 350Z- I still think it looks weird and the artificial exhaust note is annoying. Also, the dash is a mess of trap doors and weird design cues while the car is overweight to be a 2 seater. This is what happens when you try to create a sports car on a flexible architecture that supports full sized sedans and suv crossovers. I'd rather have a Mustang GT which looks tough and manly with a killer exhaust note than have the awkward looking Z. If I were looking into slightly more expensive coupe- the G37 would have my name all over it. That car has style inside and out even if it still has that stupid VQ specific exhaust roar. Hopefully the next generation Z will look better.

Wow, KB you truly are a dolt. First class dolt like I've never seen before.
 
I'll be honest with you, I'm a fairly avid reader of your blog because it's pretty unique to hear someone blog about 2-3 different cars per week. With that being said, I feel most of the time you give a fair shakedown of a car.
 
But you see, I guess I'm wrong for expecting a little bit of journalistic professionalism from you. I would have imagined that the editor of edmunds.com, who's been in that position for 10 or so years would show a little bit of maturity when reviewing cars and when answering reader questions. Instead you claim that I'm talking nonsense and that I am cluttering up your blog. Not only is that pretty disrespectful, it's laughable that you cant justify your stance. And heck I'm not the only one who feels so, there are 3 other readers who know that you're way off base with this one.
 
I'm not a GM fanboy FYI, but I do think every car deserves a fair review. You still cant explain why the G8 isnt a bargain even though an Edmunds comparison and many other folks proclaimed it to be.
 
And for a guy who's worried about cluttering his blog, you sure are adding to the clutter.

"1487, anyone could also write this comment about you. Anyone who contradicts you is a Honda loving Asian car maniac.
  
Get off your soapbox, your opinion doesn't speak for half as many people as you think it does. The vast majority of the comments you write in these blogs (Karl's, and others) result in a large number of responses arguing against your opinions. I don't know how you can throw around "we" when you are so alone for so much of the time. "
 
wrong again. You need to read everything I write, not just excerpts. In many cases people that disagree with me are unable to accept basic truths about reality in terms of cars in 2008. Many of those people are iin fact believers that everything made by a German or Japanese company is inherently superior to anything made by a Detroit based automaker. You dont have to be a Big 3 basher to disagree with me but in most cases that is the issue.
 
Alone? You really must have been tuned out in recent days. Even Karl doesn't disagree with much of what I say so I'm perplexed as to your stance that everyone here is against me and my opinions are not shared by others. HAve you been reading any of Daytona's recent posts? Apparently not. ONe thing that never changes, those who come to me in the most aggressive manner are typically the ones who fail to actually use any facts to dispel what I have said. Don't shoot the messenger just because you dislike the message.
 
Clace:
 
Good point. Logic isn't really whats important here, its all about who has the louded (or rudest) voice and the forum to spread his message on the internet. The author gets respect because of his title and ownership of a blog, not his command of the issues. You run counter to the man with the megaphone and you get attacked by his rabid supporters.

"clace, I think its fair to say that with any type of press, automotive or not, you should take what they say with a grain of salt :)"
 
I understand your point but I wouldnt take it that far. If a news program or newspaper reporter purposely or accidentally misrepresents the facts they would be in trouble. I understand that this is an opinion blog and thus Karl has freedom to bend the facts to suit his agenda but when that happens you are going to invite retorts from those who notice the agenda. People do want to see opinions here, but not Rush Linmbaugh type opinions that are biased for the sake of sensationalism and have no relation to the facts. The thing about people like that is that they dont take themselves seriously and know they cant back up what they say. They do what they do for the ratings and free press their opinions generate.
 
"And you won't address my repeated question: WHY ARE YOU READING MY BLOG? You're great at calling me names and questioning my ability to accurately evaluate a car - BUT YOU KEEP READING ANYWAY.
  
There are plenty of GM Fan Sites out there waiting to reinforce your views of how domestics are great and how it's just the mean old biased automotive press that picks on them for no reason.
  
Guys, I'm not that desparate for page views -- it's okay if you want to leave and never come back. Really, it is!! "
 
More immaturity and hostility. A few points:
 
1. This is free content and updated regularly so it makes sense to tune in if you're car savvy.
2. PEople on this blog are using the criteria established by you (and others in the press) to evaluate cars. They simply want to see the same standards applied across the board, not selective use to fit an agenda
3. Daytona never said that he was a GM car fan in general. Daytona never said all domestic cars were great, nor did anyone else. Putting words in his mouth won't change the validity of his initial point. But you can keep trying.
 
"Or continue to read and continue to whine about it. I don't care -- and starting now I won't even know about it. I'm already not aware of certain self-delusional commenters. Adding to the list is easy."
 
You just responded to Chavis today so I'm not sure who's on your "ignore" list besides myself. You can keep posting whatever you want without attempting to get different viewpoints and your educated readers will continue to respond if you do. Its pretty simple really. Again, I fail to see why you have a blog (which invites participation) if you don't want to learn from anyone else or read the opinions from the public. People who want to dictate and not interact would be better off in the world of print mags. You know, the ones you have criticized in the past as being obsolete in the internet age.

"wrong again. You need to read everything I write, not just excerpts. In many cases people that disagree with me are unable to accept basic truths about reality in terms of cars in 2008. "
  
These basic truths are as you see them, not everyone else. You speak in absolutes in an industry where nothing is black and white. The most ironic part is that you partake in many the actions for which you criticize Karl and other participants on Edmunds!
 
 "Putting words in his mouth"? Check.
  
"You need to read everything I write, not just excerpts" - not reading everything in the post you are commenting on? Or maybe just ignoring things? Check.
  
"Logic isn't really whats important here, its all about who has the louded (or rudest) voice and the forum to spread his message on the internet. " Loud, rude, check, check.
   
"Alone? You really must have been tuned out in recent days. Even Karl doesn't disagree with much of what I say so I'm perplexed as to your stance that everyone here is against me and my opinions are not shared by others. HAve you been reading any of Daytona's recent posts? Apparently not. "
  
The fact that Daytona and Chavis are arguing with you is not surprising. My comment was regarding a wider variety of Edmunds blogs in which you participate. It has been my observation that your opinion is generally not shared by the population; however, as you put it, you have the "louded (or rudest) voice on the forum", so you get a lot of responses/attention. That, and you have the time to write enormous posts in the middle of the day.
 
edit: content

dougtheeng: I couldn't have put it better. I've been reading the archives and 1487 has a huge double standard concerning the way he wants others to behave and the way he behaves.
  
Karl: I don't understand your aversion to the G8. It seems like a great car to me but I haven't had any seat time so who knows? One of the testers at C&D said that the automatic neutered the fun from the 6.0 seemingly for fuel economy. I also saw one the other day for the first time in person and it does not come off as well in real life, at least in the side and rear views that I had.
  
I did get some good seat time in a 05 GTO and came away impressed. Sure it was heavy(weighs the same as my Tundra!) and the 6MT wasn't the tightest but overall it was a fun, fast, inexpensive vehicle with lots of bang for the buck. Plus it had one of the least restrained exhaust notes i've heard in awhile! :-)

"These basic truths are as you see them, not everyone else. You speak in absolutes in an industry where nothing is black and white. The most ironic part is that you partake in many the actions for which you criticize Karl and other participants on Edmunds! "
 
Incorrect. Again, learn to separate your dislike of how I present information from the infromation I present. Karl's position is that he is the author of this blog and he needs not provide any logic or explanation for anything he says. His belief is that if you want any consistency or justification you should disappear because he is not obligated to explain anything. You wont find anything I have said that is not backed by some sort of logical explanation. You can chose to ignore my explanations or rationale (Karl does) but that is on you- not me. If you can find some examples of irrational, totally biased, out of left field arguments that I have made feel free to quote them. contrary to what you have said some things ARE black and white. You have deluded yourself (you're not alone) into thinking everything is debatable. The car that started all this was the G8 and certain things about the car are NOT debatable. The car is fast, affordable, spacious and handles well. It is a bargain compared to other large RWD V8 sedans. Those are FACTS, not issues up for debate. Now you or Karl or anyone else can say you dont like large RWD V8 sedans that cost $30k and that is OK with me but do not pretend that your opinion of the car is based on anything objective.
 
"The fact that Daytona and Chavis are arguing with you is not surprising. My comment was regarding a wider variety of Edmunds blogs in which you participate. It has been my observation that your opinion is generally not shared by the population; however, as you put it, you have the "louded (or rudest) voice on the forum", so you get a lot of responses/attention. That, and you have the time to write enormous posts in the middle of the day. "
 
Your last post was plenty long. How interesting is it that you are writing in defense of someone who has made it clear he doesnt care about or respect the opinions of those who dont agree with him 100% and then you attack me by saying "people usually don't agree with you in the forums so you must be wrong". If you pay attention you will see that the Usual Suspects surface anytime I post to dispute my posts and those people are typically of the same fold- they drive imports and don't want to entertain any talk of imports not being perfect or domestic vehicles being competent. It's all about justification of their personal vehicles choices over the years. Furthermore, the fact that 3 or 4 people spend in inordinate amount of time trying to attack anything I say does not prove that the majority of people who read or post in a blog are in disagreement. 20 posts by 3 people still represent the views of only 3 people. Its interesting that you are more interested in the number of kudos (or jeers) that I get for commenting than the actual content. I suppose that means that I would be OK with you if I simply agreed with more folks just for the sake of being a team player.
 
"dougtheeng: I couldn't have put it better. I've been reading the archives and 1487 has a huge double standard concerning the way he wants others to behave and the way he behaves. "
 
Behave? This isn't school. I don't care how Karl or anyone else behaves. This is only about the topics being dicussed here. Feel free to quote me calling people names, acting unprofessionally or using inappropriate langauge or excessive exclamation points. I may not beat around the bush but that is hardly the same as being brash or vulgar.

This has gone on long enough, so I am done with it. 1487, you regurgitate the same rediculous content in every post you make. Somehow you've managed to now accuse me of hating the G8, which is amusing given the content of my posts.
 
If you think that things are black and white in the automotive (and real world), then I am sorry for you. The world doesn't work in absolutes. Issues are always up for debate. You are cruscading for a vehicle you haven't even driven, and taking your opinions from other people.
 
I think Karl's lack of response to your comments are a result of his not wanting to deal with you and your attitude. You may not care how people behave, but thats not how the rest of the world works. You are given respect when you've earned it.
 
I'm sorry this post was so long. I didn't intend it to be. 1487 don't take this as backing down from the issue. Instead, it's some form of 'agreeing to disagree'. I am sure you are going to respond back, but I will not be participating.

doug,
 
I dont know what you were reading but it wasnt my post. I never said you hated the G8, I merely explained to you the difference between undeniable facts and subjective matters that are open to debate. I didn't mean that YOU specifically hated the G8- I was just using the car as an example. If you quit the huffing and puffing and relax you will see that nothing I said is irrational.
 
"You are given respect when you've earned it."
 
Apparently your mentor disagrees. I'm glad you said that since I happen to agree with you. Its amazing to me that you will go to such lengths to lecture me when Karl shows blatant disrespect for anyone who doesn't brown nose him or agree with his opinions. I am curious as to why you have no standards for the blog creator but feel as though I am out of order for simply OCCASIONALLY disagreeing.
 
"The world doesn't work in absolutes. Issues are always up for debate. You are cruscading for a vehicle you haven't even driven, and taking your opinions from other people. "
 
In the automotive world certain things are absolute. According to your logic I can argue the M3 is slow, the Z06 handles like an Avalon or that the H3 gets great mileage. "you havent driven it" is also a lame excuse to dismiss opinions you dont like. I had never driven a Prius until 4 months back, but that doesn't mean I would have argued that it didnt get great mileage prior to that drive. I dont like the Prius and I had never planned to drive one, but I can't argue about its efficiency- it speaks for itself.

"In the automotive world certain things are absolute. According to your logic I can argue the M3 is slow, the Z06 handles like an Avalon or that the H3 gets great mileage."
 
Compared to a car like the Bugatti Veyron the M3 is slow, compared to a Lotus Elise or Ariel Atom the Z06 handles like an Avalon and compared to a Murcielago the H3 gets great mileage. That's what no absolutes means. Compared to an Orangutan you're intelligent but it's not absolute.

"You are given respect when you've earned it. "
 
KB are you listening? That's for you.
 
Benson your point just illustrates that the automotive world is relative. Yes a Veyron smokes an M3, and a Lotus handles better than a Corvette. Similarily the G8 is a bargain relative to other RWD V8 sedans, not relative to a Civic Si. Why is that KB cant get that into his thick skull??

"You are given respect when you've earned it. "
 
FYI that wasn't for KB.

""FYI that wasn't for KB."
 
Well it sure applies to him, seeing as how he doesnt have an ounce of respect for anyone that disagrees with him.

"Compared to a car like the Bugatti Veyron the M3 is slow, compared to a Lotus Elise or Ariel Atom the Z06 handles like an Avalon and compared to a Murcielago the H3 gets great mileage. That's what no absolutes means. Compared to an Orangutan you're intelligent but it's not absolute."
 
That was one of the silliest things I have read. It goes to show some people will post ANYTHING just for the sake of arguing. I don't really believe you buy any of what you wrote but hey nothing is sacred when you are trying to attack me on this forum. You got to do better than that. This is the problem with people these days, we are led to beleive that EVERYTHING is subjective. I have seen it all now that Benson has claimed the Z06 handles like an Avalon.
 
"FYI that wasn't for KB."
 
He knew that. Still applies. Not that you would ever criticize anythng he ever says here. Daytona's point is that we need to drop the double standards. We take our cues on civility from the host. Don't hold us to rules that the host doesn't abide by in his blog. If he's going to dish it out I'm sure he can take it. I have never understood why so many feel they are obligated to come to the digital "rescue" of a grown man who obviously knows how to defend himself on his blog.

"Benson has claimed the Z06 handles like an Avalon."
 
No. See there you go again not comprehending, babbling, putting words in people's mouths, and speaking in absolutes. What I said was that compared to an Ariel Atom, or Lotus Elise the Z06 handles like an Avalon. It doesn't mean the Z06 is a bad handling car. It just means that relative to a car that weighs a third of it's weight (Atom) the Corvette is gonna feel heavy and have more understeer. Don't worry I'm not attacking the holy shrine that is the Z06. I don't want that headache.

"Not that you would ever criticize anythng he ever says here. Daytona's point is that we need to drop the double standards. We take our cues on civility from the host. Don't hold us to rules that the host doesn't abide by in his blog. If he's going to dish it out I'm sure he can take it. I have never understood why so many feel they are obligated to come to the digital "rescue" of a grown man who obviously knows how to defend himself on his blog."
 
Suggesting that someone feels obligated to do such a thing is silly. I have my own opinions and, although maybe shocking to you, they do occasionally fall in line with Karl. Just because I don't necessarily subscibe to the church of 1487 doesn't make me a member of Karl's congregation. I happen to share his opinion in this matter, to the extent that I am able to comment.

"What I said was that compared to an Ariel Atom, or Lotus Elise the Z06 handles like an Avalon. It doesn't mean the Z06 is a bad handling car. It"
 
I know what you said- it still doesn't make any sense. Under NO circumstances is the Z06 to be considered a poor handling car. That was my point originally. Next you will be explaining to me how compared to an SL65 the Z06 seems slow. The presence of a car with even greater capability doesn't mean that we can debate the performance of any given car. The presence of the ZR-1 doesn't make the Z06 slow, it just means the ZR1 is very, very fast.
 
"Don't worry I'm not attacking the holy shrine that is the Z06. I don't want that headache."
 
I'm sure you can find a way to if you tried. Hey, its not Japanese so it's obviously a POS. No need to say any more.
 
"Suggesting that someone feels obligated to do such a thing is silly. I have my own opinions and, although maybe shocking to you, they do occasionally fall in line with Karl."
 
Same here. You were all over the place in this topic and your defense of Karl surely seemed to go beyond talking about this one issue. You were lecturing about civility and all types of things which I found to be rich since the individual you were siding with exhibits none. I like that "church of 1487" remark- yet another attempt to portray me as a lone ranger comes out of left field with ridiculous ideas. In case you missed it, I was hardly the only person in disagreement with KB so make sure you belittle all of us dissenters together. I dont create a baseless argument just for the sake of being disagreeable. I clearly explained my problems with the assertions laid out by KB and many others seemed to have similar feelings on the matter. Let's just call it the "Church of common sense" for good measure.

"You were lecturing about civility and all types of things which I found to be rich since the individual you were siding with exhibits none."
 
If you think I am going to change my opinion because another person who shares it may not be civil at times, you are insane. Seriously, think about the logic in that statement.
 
"I like that "church of 1487" remark- yet another attempt to portray me as a lone ranger comes out of left field with ridiculous ideas. In case you missed it, I was hardly the only person in disagreement with KB so make sure you belittle all of us dissenters together."
 
Congregation implies plurality. I'm not suggesting you're the only one, I just don't think you're in the majority.

"I know what you said- it still doesn't make any sense. Under NO circumstances is the Z06 to be considered a poor handling car. "
 
See I didn't say the z06 is a poor handling car. In fact right above that you quote me saying the z06 is not a bad handling car and yet you go right ahead and put words in my mouth. It's amazing what a jack ass you are.