Wow Karl, How can someone with a passion for his old school challenger not have a special place in your heart for the G8 V8??? I would think the V8 would compensate for the ergonomic/lack of features issue especially all for a price just over 30k. That just seem odd to me! The there are plenty of other probably better sedans with the v6. I would think the V8 is the one thing that makes the G8 special :)

Personally I just couldn't live with the v6 because every single time you show someone your car the first question is "So that's got the v8 right?"
 
I mean it's called the G8 for a reason no? If you want a v6 Camry fighter...get the G6.

The Accord is absolutely perfect, completely flawless. Not only is it the best mid sized FWD car (that large car BS only applies to low end models w/o the moonroof), but it's also better for cars that aren't even in its category. I'm quite sure that no cars on GM's Zeta platform have the Accord in their sights but count on our resident automotive genius to make the comparison anyway. Most people with any common automotive knowledge know that modern RWD cars cost more to manufacture than an equivalent sized (in terms of interior volume) FWD car, therefore the RWD car will cost more. Loading up the G8 with Nav would do nothing but add $2000 to the cost of the vehicle and that defeats the entire point of attainable RWD performance in a practical, roomy sedan- get a Garmin or TomTom for $400 and call it a day. If you don't value RWD performance, than the G8 would be a stupid buy anyway as the value quotient is greatly dimenished if your priorities are focused elsewhere.
 
"Some people were touting it as an inexpensive BMW 5 Series. I wasn't buying then and I'm not buying now. It takes more than cylinder count and drivetrain layout to match BMW's driving dynamics."
 
The question is, did GM state this? I don't believe they did so I don't see a problem. If other writers want to get all excited, then let them. But we know you have to set the record straight regarding the wayward opines of less intelligent auto scribes who are often blinded by GM's PR spin machine. If you can't rationalize a 361hp engine on a modern well balanced RWD platform for $30k, then maybe you need to stop writing on automobiles. What does the base 328i cost with leatherette and an automatic transmission? Obviously, there's a reason this car less than a BMW 550i.

"It takes more than cylinder count and drivetrain layout to match BMW's driving dynamics."
 
Yeah it also takes a sporty independent suspension, great brakes, nice steering, big tires and a potent engine. The G8 has all of those things. You are a G8 hater for whatever reason and then you have the audacity to try and justify it with supposedly objective rationale. The Zeta platform is a new, world class, rigid RWD platform and in other countries (like Australia) Zeta based cars are compared with 5 series and E classes. We know you don't like the fact that this car is saddled with a Pontiac badge but brand aside this is a world class RWD car and you haven't given us any real reasons why it doesn't deserve the accolades its received. You are a long time LX car fan and that's fine but at this point in time the LX cars have been eclipsed by a superior RWD car that actually costs less.
 
The price difference between the G8 V6 and V8 isnt even that large, especially when you factor in the V8 comes with a few additional features that arent standard on the V6. To say the V8 isnt a bargain but the V6 is makes no sense whatsoever.
 
You say the $27k price is more in line with the car's interior quality and performance as if the GT model underperforms. If you look at IL's recent tests involving the G8 and 550i you will see that the two cars performed almost identically. How the hell is the G8 GT not living up to its price tag if it allows you to achieve the same acceleration and handling as a $70k BMW that isn't even as large? And dont even start with the "its not about the numbers" garbage because all the of reviews of the G8 (except yours) have said the handling and steering were commendable so its not like the car generates numbers but isnt fun to drive.
 
The Accord is uglier, smaller (esp in the trunk) and has interior materials that are no better. I've been in both cars and there is not a huge advantage in interior quality in the Accord. Fuel efficiency and nav are the only things the Accord has on the G8. Actually real world fuel efficiency may not even be that much better since long term Accords here and in MT are averaging about 20mpg. The G8 lacks sat nav but does have Onstar and remote start which the Accord lacks. Not to mention superior handling, space and styling.

Oh god, a direct Accord-G8 comparison. I knew this day was coming. 1487 is going to have a hernia. Oh man you commented on resale too, lol.
 
"I also liked the car in red better than black."
 
I agree, though the red in the picture used in this post looks more orange/cheery then it does in real life.
 
For what its worth, I would much rather drive the G8. Its better looking, RWD, and just has a better vibe to it. The new Accord is a boat, and although it may drive well, it screams old man to me. I would never spend the money on Nav in the car, so I don't care about that in the G8.

Ahahaha 1487 you beat me to it. Good times.

"Oh god, a direct Accord-G8 comparison. I knew this day was coming. 1487 is going to have a hernia. Oh man you commented on resale too, lol. "
 
I dont have an issue with the two cars being compared as long as we note the Accord's shortcoming. Its a full size car with a smallest in class trunk and its dull looking.
 
I'm curious as to how Karl is an authority on the G8's resale value when the car just went on sale in May.
 
He also mentions "superior NVH" and yet no one else has indicated the G8 was lacking refinement. One thing is for sure, the Malibu/Aura with the same engine are quieter than the Accord and C&D even said the I-4 Malibu was quieter than Accord I-4. I'm sure if we check the numbers we'll find the G8 is just as quiet as the Accord V6. Almost all cars in this price range are refined from a NVH perspective. But then again, thats the beauty of subjectivity and baseless commentary passed off as fact- you can say whatever you want.

Yeah, but Karl, isn't the lack of adjustable rear headrests is still a deal breaker....?

Karl, you are set on ... "NO PONTIAC G-8 FOR ME". I respect your opinion. Are you trying to compare a RWD V6 G8 w/ the regular FWD fleet of Camry and Accord? Looks like it. In the end if you gun for resale value and milage the FWD's cars will run with the winner price.
 
All I can say the Pontiac G8 is a good looking car. I didn't drive one nor look inside one yet.

another illogical karl rant on this car.
 
the v8 version costs ~30k, which is where the according v6 auto tops out at . Sure It comes with the 2000 nav option to hit 30k.
 
But what gives you more bang for the buck, a 200 dollar nav system installed for 1800 dollars
 
or a v8 engine that gives you 361hp, and 385lb ft of torque?

"And dont even start with the "its not about the numbers" garbage because all the of reviews of the G8 (except yours) have said the handling and steering were commendable so its not like the car generates numbers but isnt fun to drive."
 
I wouldn't really call subjective measurements "garbage." The actual driving experience is 9/10ths of the law, and until you drive both of these cars back to back, I'd say that you're not really qualified to say that one car is better because the numbers say so. By the way, not every review is not as gushing as you would suggest. The G8 is an excellent car for the money, but it's not the best car in world.
 
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/pontiac/0804_2008_pontiac_g8_gt/bmw_550i.html

I don't see what's so attractive about the G8 on the outside, especially from the front. It looks one generation older than the Accord, and pretty generic too.
 
I haven't driven the G8 though, so that's about all I can comment on. The Accord does drive well for its size, imo, and if a car's going to be nose-heavy I'd almost rather it were FWD instead of RWD, otherwise the feeling around corners is pretty awkward. If the V6 G8 is better balanced then it should have no problem carving out a niche.

I like the G8's exterior styling, and the fact that it looks different from any other midsized vehicle out there. I haven't driven or sat in one before, so I can't comment on the interior ergonomics, etc. Based on its styling and different character alone, I would choose it over the Accord. The only thing the Accord has on it is the fuel economy, which is indeed a big thing........
 
Karl, how does the G8's handling/sportiness compare to the current Mazda 6 (or the 2009 Mazda 6, if you've driven it)? Is the Mazda 6 still the sportiness class-leader?

Wow. A sedate discussion of several cars real people might actually compare, looking at features real people might like to read about, and our resident domestic divas still throw a major tantrum.
 
"But then again, thats the beauty of subjectivity and baseless commentary passed off as fact- you can say whatever you want." Second day in a row...

"I wouldn't really call subjective measurements "garbage." The actual driving experience is 9/10ths of the law, and until you drive both of these cars back to back, I'd say that you're not really qualified to say that one car is better because the numbers say so. By the way, not every review is not as gushing as you would suggest. The G8 is an excellent car for the money, but it's not the best car in world. "
 
I have no clue what you are talking about. I stated clearly that most reviews have said the DRIVING EXPERIENCE was positive. What part of that didnt you get? Also, why would you post a comparo from Automobile that said the G8 comapres favorably to a 550i as PROOF that the car hasnt been getting good reviews? I don't get that at all. That comparo was very flattering for the G8. Is that the best you can do?
 
The overwhelming majority of reviewers like the G8 and Karl says is a mediocre Pontiac being hyped up by pro-GM press corps members who are too impressionable to stand up to the GM PR machine. You be the judge as whether or not Karl's stance makes any sense.
 
BTW, for $30k I'm sure that most folks would agree the G8 isnt the best car in the world. $30k isnt a lot of money in today's car market.
 
"If the V6 G8 is better balanced then it should have no problem carving out a niche."
 
The V8 car weighs 100lbs more than the V6 but that includes the 19" wheels. The engine is probably 50lbs more, not a huge difference.
 
"Wow. A sedate discussion of several cars real people might actually compare, looking at features real people might like to read about, and our resident domestic divas still throw a major tantrum. "
 
Anyone who doesnt agree with 100% of what Karl says is a "domestic diva"? Wow. Yeah thats me, the same guy who was defending Lexus as a legit 1st tier luxury brand a few days back. The G8 is a nice car for the money regardless of who makes it. I made valid points about the Accord that should be mentioned if you are going to compare it to the G8 or anything else.
 
The average person who thinks the Accord is the epitome of excellent automaking will never consider the G8. When the top two things on your list of criteria are "resale value" and "honda reliability" you arent going to consider a Pontiac. I don't care how good the Accord's steering is, its still FWD and RWD cars have superior steering feel to FWD cars. This is one reason why enthusiast magazines prefer a RWD layout.

"Wow. A sedate discussion of several cars real people might actually compare, looking at features real people might like to read about, and our resident domestic divas still throw a major tantrum. "
  
If you have nothing to add, please troll elsewhere. If "domestic diva" was an attempt at comedy, stick to your day job as name calling usually indicates one has weak rebuttal.
  
For you information, RWD cars command premium and are aimed at a particular subset of buyers in a given price range. Why do you think Lexus has the smaller, more sporting, lower volume IS when the ES offers more space and many of the same features for less money? Infiniti did this as well until the I30/35 was killed off for good in favor of a single, RWD offering in the class (G35). Suggesting to us that your run of the mill Accord V6 buyer will consider a V6 G8 is more like a stretch of the imagination. If they are stepping down from a luxury car, they are more likely interested in the maximum bang for the buck (high end features for a more modest price with no appreciation for brand cache). As I said before, the G8 is not trying to fulfill this role. It's emphasis is on a sporty driving experience and the look that accompanies such a philosophy. Conversly, if the buyer is graduating from Civic or base model Accord, they probably love Honda's reliability and reputation and want to experience the zenith of the brand- the loaded Accord with all the options.
  
"I wouldn't really call subjective measurements "garbage." The actual driving experience is 9/10ths of the law, and until you drive both of these cars back to back, I'd say that you're not really qualified to say that one car is better because the numbers say so. By the way, not every review is not as gushing as you would suggest.."
  
How many average consumers drive cars they will potentially buy back to back (meaning the available cars are side by side for equal evaluation at the same location)? Some may take multiple test drives in one day but I doubt they'll have out their clipboard jotting down driving impressions and reading previous notes. Testing cars professionally has little to do with the way most consumers view or interact with the vehicles they acquire and this is simply a fact. Toyota is proof positive of this ideal because their dynamics are regularly panned by the auto press yet the public cannot get enough, even despite the recent drop in quality. Believe it or not, car companies make money off of selling actual cars, not winning comparison tests. I know this is a difficult notion to grasp but it is indeed true. When's the last time anyone's test drive lasted 100 miles over twisting mountain roads? Even if I were able to test drive a car for such a long time, I'd have to drive 100 miles just to get to the twisty mountain roads.
  
"The G8 is an excellent car for the money, but it's not the best car in world."
  
I think that's the only point a few people were trying to make. No one remotely suggested the G8 is some great car that redefines the industry. This review is simply proof that GM cannot win over some critics no matter what kind of products they release. For years, all we heard was, "who do they think they are fooling forcing 300hp through the front wheels" So they finally release a car with the "proper" RWD platform and still, it's not good enough. I'm sorry if some objective thinkers find this malarky ridiculous but it is indeed, just that.

I've actually driven the G8 GT and I was very pleasantly surprised. The power and handling were astounding for a vehicle in it's class. The interior quality was much better than I ever expected from Pontiac (or Honda). It's a very nicely put together car. To me the biggest downfall is that I hate the Pontiac grill. Yuck.

"The V8 car weighs 100lbs more than the V6 but that includes the 19" wheels. The engine is probably 50lbs more, not a huge difference. "
 
The engine might not even be that much heavier since it's a much simple OHV design versus the more complicated DOHC configuration used for V6. The HF V6 has a lot more hardware (piston cooling jets, variable manifold, 4 cam VVT, etc) when compared to the compact small block V8.

Critics say "Pontiac needs a RWD performance car to get back to its roots and needs to stay away from FWD family sedans"
 
Pontiac creates RWD performance car.
 
Critics say "this RWD performace car lacks the mileage and value of smaller FWD family sedans and I'd prefer a ubiquitous FWD Honda Accord."
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I thought the G8 was what the critics had been asking for but apparently what they really wanted was a Pontiac version of the Accord. FWD is bad if its on a Pontiac or Chevy Impala but its just fine on an Accord. Then again, its the same thing with FWD cars with a lot of hp. BAck in the 90s we were told its inappropriate for a FWD car to have more than 200hp or so. Fast forward a decade and we have Japanese cars with V6s pumping out 268-290hp and no one complains.

"Wow. A sedate discussion of several cars real people might actually compare, looking at features real people might like to read about, and our resident domestic divas still throw a major tantrum."
 
You have to remember that just saying the G8 is better than the Camry and Charger isn't good enough for some folks. I must proclaim it as unmitigated proof that GM is the greatest car company to ever exist.
 
You read some of these posts and it's like I said the G8's mother wears combat boots or something. Was my initial post really that spiteful toward the car?
 
Apparently it was if you can't stomach critical analysis of multiple products. These people seems to think "There's nothing GM can do to 'win Karl over.'" I guess I would respond to them with, "There's no amount of rational analysis that will pull your collective heads out of...um the clouds." Yeah, clouds. That's what I meant to say all along.
 
Blackradder -- the G8 doesn't feel as nimble or responsive as the Mazda 6 (it can't, it weighs too much) but it feels relatively confident and its far more roomy inside (at least compared to the current Mazda 6) so it really comes down to priorities.
 
Which I guess was the main point of my blog in the first place. These cars are all pretty good and certainly competitive. It really just depends on what each individual buyer cares about the most.
 
Apparently such philsophies are too complex for some to grasp...

"You have to remember that just saying the G8 is better than the Camry and Charger isn't good enough for some folks. I must proclaim it as unmitigated proof that GM is the greatest car company to ever exist. "
 
Grow up. People just want you to tell the truth and give credit where its due. The Charger is 4 years old and the camry isnt the benchmark of ANYTHING these days. SAying the G8 is slightly better than those two cars is damning with faint praise. YOu showed your feelings with your statement about "not buying" that Pontiac could create a BMW like vehicle. Thats the end of story right there.
 
"Was my initial post really that spiteful toward the car? "
 
yes. You basically said (perhaps in subsequent responses) that the G8 wasn't good and you were the only one with the guts to tell the truth about the car because you werent a "home team" fanboy. I mean come on. Opinions may differ slightly but its hard to believe that a car that so impressed others (even known GM haters like C&D) could be such a mediocre car. And then we remembered that its a Pontiac and thus you were angered at the mere suggestion that a lowly Pontiac had been compared by others (not GM) to BMWs.
 
"Apparently such philsophies are too complex for some to grasp..."
 
Apparently the simple point so many of us are making here is tough for you to grasp. Its always dangerous to think you're smarter than everyone else when you're the only person who can verify your superiority.
 
"Apparently it was if you can't stomach critical analysis of multiple products. These people seems to think "There's nothing GM can do to 'win Karl over.'" I guess I would respond to them with, "There's no amount of rational analysis that will pull your collective heads out of...um the clouds." Yeah, clouds. That's what I meant to say all along. "
 
Again grow up. No one here has suggested the G8 is the perfect vehicle. This is why you avoid responding to actual comments and instead infer that people are making irrational arguments in favor of GM products in general. If you notice, you are the one who keeps bringing up GM, not those who disagree with your opinion of the G8. In order to dismiss the legit comments on your G8 critiques you try and divert attention by accusing people of being GM fanboys who believe every product they make is perfect. If you have some REAL counter arguments why not present them? Stop trying to demean everyone and simply explain to us why you seem to be the only one in the press who has the correct opinion on the G8.
 
You want criticisms? no 8 way seat, no fold down seats, no HIDs, no XM radio, no 6 speed auto standard. If the G8 had all those things I would consider it nearly perfect for the price. Without those things its simply very good for the price. Its amazing that an unabashed GM defender like myself was able to come up with a list of criticisms since I allegedly claimed in the past that every product GM has ever made was hands down best in class and perfect.

"That comparo was very flattering for the G8. Is that the best you can do? "
 
Like I said, the G8 is a good car, but Automobile Mag did have criticisms about the woolly steering that lacked feedback. Remember too that Karl is reviewing the V6 model which does compare rather well to family sedans like the Accord. I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about this stuff. They're just cars, people.

This blog entry was not damning to the G8 at all. I think certain people will only be happy when journalists proclaim this car better then a M5. Karl prefers the Accord, but not for any amazing reason. What more do you want? The points Karl uses to choose the Accord could just as easily swing the other way. 1487 never shuts up about how no one cares about factory nav systems...there you go, a reason to choose the G8 (as opposed to Karl wanting nav, choosing the Accord).

Unabashed GM Defender..............do you feel superior making excuses for a corporation that consistently fails to turn a profit?
 
G3 for Pontiac, that is a great decision. The future of Pontiac is clear and focused.
 
GMT900, what a great investment for the future.

Karl,
Interesting comparison. I think this type of thing needs to be put out there in a road test or something! I (and I assume others) simply write-off the G8 as a muscle car and don't even think of the possibility of a ecomomical, fun, rwd family sedan!!
 
I really like the way the G8 looks. In real life, it's tight and styled to look aggressive yet clean. It is something that will not look dated in a couple years- much like a euro sedan.
I really can't stand the Accord. It looks so ugly (yet so anonymous) that all I can say is, "meh." Also, everyone that I personally know that has gotten a new Accord say, "It's nice but, man, it's big! Other than that, it's ok." (and they don't mean "big" in a good way.)
 
The V6 G8 kind of brings something new into the game. It sounds like the Mazda 3/ Civic dogfight where one is more practical and the other is more visceral.
 
But, to have a solid, really sharp, sporty rwd sedan that appeals to the "accord segment" - that is what Pontiac SHOULD have!
If people want a bit more practicality, there is always the excellent Chevy Malibu, (Ward's Best Interior 2008) probably on the same showroom floor. Both of which look far better than the Accord imo.
 
**looking at the price- (for socal)
the V6 w/ Premium & Comfort/Sound Pkg options ($2170) & dest comes in at $29,265
 
the Malibu LTZ V6 comes in at around $26,669
 
so you are paying a premium for the G8. Karl, price considering, which is the better deal?

If you want rear-drive dynamics the Malibu can't even be on the consideration list. But if you don't care that much about which wheels are doing the work the Malibu is a better deal.
 
The Accord strikes a nice balance for me because the steering feel and driving dynamics are extremely good...for a FWD car. It'd be interesting to get both on a twisty to road see which one (Accord vs G8) actually performs better (steering feel, NVH and driven wheels be damned).

Car & Driver recently compared the BMW M3 to the Nissan GTR and the Porsche 911 Turbo. The BMW one because it was considered to be a better daily driver. Um, OK. The other two will blow the M3 away from a performance standpoint, but C&D decided that wasn't important. If daily driver was the criteria, the 911 and GTR were the wrong cars to bring to the party.
 
Karl did the same. He brought a RWD muscle car to a comparison of FWD family sedans. Surprise the G8 lost. Karl, can you do a do a writeup of the Accord as a $30K RWD muscle car? That'd be great.

"Karl did the same. He brought a RWD muscle car to a comparison of FWD family sedans. Surprise the G8 lost."
 
It lost huh? I guess saying I'd buy it over a Camry and Charger means it lost? Thanks for clearing that up. You wisdom and insight are inspiring.
 
Now I'm going to compare people who can actually read a blog post with those that have delusions, and then post about them.
 
Done. I've discoverd the people with delusions are pathetic.

"It'd be interesting to get both on a twisty to road see which one (Accord vs G8) actually performs better (steering feel, NVH and driven wheels be damned)."
 
Do it, tell us about it. Then half will tell you what an f-ing moron you are, and the other half will tell you what a genius you are.
 
Based on some of the responses I have to wonder if they missed this:
"So the Pontiac loses in terms of fuel mileage and power and wins in terms of driving dynamics and interior space against Accord and Camry. "
 
As to the comment about the Accord having a better resale; seriously, does anyone doubt that?
 
I've driven the new Accord, and cruiserhead1, nailed my reaction, "nice, but man it's big"

Karl,
I think it's time to get a moderator and cull the trolls to keep this a informative, fun conversation.
Healthy debate is one thing but some of these people are totally out of line.

Karl wrote: "I've discoverd the people with delusions are pathetic."
 
This is why reading your submissions is so much fun. You're the only editor I know that frequently tosses out insults.
 
Getting past that...
 
Yea "lost" may have been a bit extreme (there can be only one?). I stand by the rest of my comment. The G8 was out of place, given the criteria. I think that's what is getting people riled up.

Karl wrote: "I've discoverd the people with delusions are pathetic."
 
normally the voices in my head scare me,... but from time to time, it appears that the voices in Karl's head come out and write blogs like this.
 
the scary thing is, they ussually center around GM cars, and currently the G8 is the whipping boy.

"This blog entry was not damning to the G8 at all. I think certain people will only be happy when journalists proclaim this car better then a M5. "
 
Doug,
 
come on man. You have been earning my respect lately as a fairly reasonable poster here but that statement is just ridiculous. When Karl first reviewed the G8 GT he could barely find any redeeming qualities. He reviews the V6 and says its not as mediocre as the V8 (which most people feel is the best G8) and might be better than a 4 year old Charger and people want to act like he gave it Car of the Year or something.
 
"Unabashed GM Defender..............do you feel superior making excuses for a corporation that consistently fails to turn a profit? "
 
Do you feel like you are making a worthwhile contribution with pointless name calling and baseless accusations? As someone said earlier those who are resort to name calling typically don' t have anything of substance to say. You don't post that often and based on the lack of thoughtful content in your posts I would say that we are better off for your lack of participation.
 
"It lost huh? I guess saying I'd buy it over a Camry and Charger means it lost? Thanks for clearing that up. You wisdom and insight are inspiring. "
 
I cant see why you are so confused about why no one cares about you claiming the G8 is superior to the camry. People assume you are an enthusiast and thus the Camry should be one of your least favorite cars. No one here cares about the camry or is impressed by that car even thought it's likely reliable. The G8 should beat the Camry in a comparison with one wheel missing. The G8 has beat the Charger in 3 comparison tests that I have seen and that isnt surprising considering the Charger's age. I think that we all pretty much assumed the G8 is better than both of those cars just by looking at the pictures and reading the spec sheets. One of them isnt even in the same league from a space, styling and handling standpoint and the other is similar in concept but dated. I think the part that really annoyed people was the proclamation (by a supposed enthusiast) that the soccer mom FWD Accord would be a better buy than the RWD G8. If this were CR we wouldnt be surprised since they could care less about RWD, styling or sportiness. C&D worships the Accord about as much as you do but I don't even think they would go so far as to say they would rather drive a front heavy Accord over the G8.
 
"You're the only editor I know that frequently tosses out insults. "
 
Very true. And then his supporting cast gets offended when people respond in a terse manner and begin to pile on the name calling and insults. My theory is that anyone who can dish it out should be able to take it.

PS:
 
An auto enthusiast saying a particular car is more interesting than the Camry is like an enironmental magazine saying they find a particular model more socially responsible than a Hummer. If you value the driving experience I don't see how many cars could rank lower than the Camry. If the G8 wasnt better than the Camry than Pontiac (and GM) would be in even worse trouble than they are already.

"come on man. You have been earning my respect lately as a fairly reasonable poster here but that statement is just ridiculous."
 
While I agree that the original G8 GT post was none too complimentary, I do not read the same negative vibes from this one that you do. The way I read this post, the Accord and the G8 are basically separated by FWD/RWD, and some Honda gadgets. In Karl's case, he wants/needs the gadgets. In other people's case, myself included, gadgets do not decide the car and thus I prefer the G8.
 
So, I don't think my statement was (or is) rediculous at all. Though I have to admit, I'm not sure what more you expect him to say - hence the M5 comment. If the Accord is generally considered the class leader, and he lands his car closely to the Accord...? Well, add 2+2.
 
Your said Karl said that the G8 "might be better than a 4 year old Charger " - this seems like a huge exageration to me. Reading the article, he clearly states its better, no "might" about it.
 
As for your respect, thats interesting of you to say, lol, as I tend to oppose a lot of your posts.

Hey Karl, out of curiousity, when making driving dynamics comparisons to the Camry V6, was it the SE or XLE that you had in mind. IMO, there's a big difference, and I'd rather the Camry SE over the G8 V6, but not the luxo-Buick XLE...

LOL
Karl, you gotta love it. All I have to say is "cull the trolls" without any specifics and the peanut gallery pre-emptively tries to character assasinate YOU!
 
...and no one should expect coming into someone's home blog and "messing the carpet" to not get the sharp end of the stick. This isn't "Little Miss Punching Bag on Cars".

Too true. The one thing I pride myself on is saying in my blog what I would say in real life.
 
Most of the...well, I'll use the word "ridiculous" (just randomly chosen descriptor, of course) statements made in blog comments are made by people from the safety of their home (or, more likely, their dorm rooms or parents' basements). And they are made by people who take the attitude, "Well, I can be an A-hole over a blog and not suffer any consequences, so why not run with it full speed."
 
And usually they are right -- they can be jerks and most people will just let it slide.
 
But just as I like to say on my blog what I'd say in real life, I also like to respond to these people like I would respond in real life. Maybe the rest of the blogosphere will coddle them in their "A-hole-ness" but I like to let them know that, at least sometimes, there are consequences to their actions (a largely outdated concept in 2008, I know...).
 
Of course, this assumes I:
A. Still read their posts (several users's comments are glanced over as soon as I seen the user name), and
B. Have the time. Often I don't, but when I do I like to address their "ridiculous" statements head on versus ignoring them or letting them slide on acting like A-holes.
 
And before the "who are you to define what an A-hole is" comments start flying, I'll explain it.
 
I am KARL BRAUER, LORD AND MASTER OF THE KARL ON CARS UNIVERSE! Don't like it? Leave and start your own blog where you can be lord and master. Really -- I mean that for the people who know who they are -- LEAVE.
 
Or stay, and be prepared to get as good as you give (when I have the time and if actually read it, which I likely won't for some of you).

"The way I read this post, the Accord and the G8 are basically separated by FWD/RWD, and some Honda gadgets."
 
I guess so. This is the first time I've ever heard an enthusiast say a FWD family car with 60/40 weight distribution is sportier than a RWD sedan with near 50/50 weight distribution that has been compared to a BMW in terms of chassis dynamics. The Accord is a reliable appliance for people who read CR, its not a car for enthusiasts. Its a car you recommend to your sister or wife. Unless you're a Honda-phile of course.
 
"...and no one should expect coming into someone's home blog and "messing the carpet" to not get the sharp end of the stick. This isn't "Little Miss Punching Bag on Cars". "
 
This is the internet age. As I've said before anyone who doesn't favor two way communication and other opinions shouldn't be blogging. If you want to dictate your opinion in a vacuum it's best to work for a print mag like C&D. My experience tells me that people who chose to occasionally disagree with Karl are more than capable of handling "the sharp end of the stick".

""Well, I can be an A-hole over a blog and not suffer any consequences, so why not run with it full speed."
 
Thats exactly the attitude you seem to take. I couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, it is possible that you are as arrogant and stubborn in real life as you are in this virtual world. Let's hope not. :)
 
 "Or stay, and be prepared to get as good as you give (when I have the time and if actually read it, which I likely won't for some of you)."
 
I just wish you could explain who is complaining about you being too harsh. It's not me so perhaps you could explain who has been offended by your supposedly sharp barbs. You generally avoid responding to the issue raised and simpy resort to insults or silly comments about people being GM fans or whatever. See, before the internet people who wrote about cars (or whatever) could say anything without worrying about any rebuttal. The biggest mistake you make is underestimating the automotive savvy of your regular readers. If you were lecturing soccer moms at your kid's school I'm sure you could say whatever you wanted and have it accepted as gospel. In this forum you are largely speaking to educated readers who know as much about cars (dare I say more in some cases) as you do. At least respect your audience.
 
Its amusing that you have been claiming for months (years?) that you dont read the posts of anyone who disagrees with you and yet you constantly respond to those people, just not by name. In fact, you even take preemptive strikes against those you supposedly you ignore in some of your posts. It's a little absurd to respond to people by saying you don't even know what they posted in the first place because you don't read their entries. If you didn't read them you wouldn't be responding.

It's a nice color, does the Accord come in that color?

"The Camry or Charger -- probably. The Accord -- no way. "
 
Doug,
 
That seems like a definitive declaration of G8 superiority to you? Not me.
 
I just reread that last rant, it was pretty entertaining. It is not unlike a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. Interesting that the person who cant engage in any adult-like debate is the one who claims that his opponents are likely pimple faced teens posting from the comfort of their parent's basement or dorm room. Personally, I think that name calling and crude insults are a much more indicative of immaturity than simply posting a reasonable rebuttal to a blog entry that is somewhat illogical. For the record, if you dont follow the thinking of Master Karl 100% you are a) an a-hole, b) a slacker who lives at home because anyone smart enough to have their own place would agree with Karl, c) a crybaby who cant withstand his witty comebacks and d) someone who should start his own blog because blogs are all about homogenous opinions.

"That seems like a definitive declaration of G8 superiority to you? Not me. "
 
That statement, when read alone like you put it, is definitely a declaration of Accord superiority, you're 100% right.
 
But when you read it in the context of the blog, thats not how it comes across.
 
"Would I buy a Pontiac G8 V6 over an Accord or Camry or Charger? The Camry or Charger -- probably. The Accord -- no way. The Honda, even with its front-drive layout, still drives quite well. And the new Accord's larger size provides plenty of interior space. Add in the Honda's high-tech options, superior NVH and higher resale value and I'd have to go with the Accord.
 
But at least it requires this level of analysis for me to decide on the Honda over the Pontiac.
"
 
That is the full statement that follows. As you can see, when read in its entirety, the overall tone of the message is not one of blatant Accord superiority.
 
"someone who should start his own blog because blogs are all about homogenous opinions"
 
I would argue that they are about homogenous opinions in many, many cases. Thats the point of them - you are supposed to be able to vent/talk about whatever. There is a difference between a blog and a forum.

Unfortunately some of us don't worship Karl and have minds to make our own assessments. It's pretty interesting to me that Edmunds.com is a free domaim for anyone to use but Karl likes to cry foul and beat his chest (gorilla style) when people disagree with his opinions. And who in the heck has time to start their own blog if they work a full time job unrelated to the auto industry? It's really not that serious (to me at least), we are only talking about cars here folks- it's just a hobby/interest. If you, Karl, want to dictate opinions then make your blog private and charge money or membership fee- that'll insure your loyal followers will never disagree with the "knowledge" you dissemenate.
  
It's pretty interesting how your faithful soldiers on the front line who jump to your defense (against us big bad bullies) never have anything constructive to add to the discussion. If you checked your ego, we could have fruitful discussions about all things automotive. However, your arrogance simply turns some people off along with your childish name calling. Perhaps being on the radio or a ten second snippet on World News Tonight has gone to your head... I'm really not sure. If you are such a learned authority, you'd be able to entertain differing opinions constructively but that is clearly beyond your grasp. And dude, this a blog- not Camelot- there's no castle to be King of.
 
I'm still trying to figure out the "parent's basement/dorm room" line that you've used numerous times...??? Please state who you are referring to- it sure as heck isn't me.
 
You hate just about every American car while you try to sugarcoat this fact in your write-ups, your hostile responses to 1487 have shed clear light on your bias. If it isn't a Ford GT or possibly a CTS, it's junk. You like the Chrysler LX cars, but attribute all of their positive qualities to MB. I still fail to understand how you have such an affinity for the Charger/300 when they are based on a car developed in the early '90s. GM developes and all new RWD platform and yet the Accord is dynamically superior? And you wonder why a few people question your prose.... Wow

"I would argue that they are about homogenous opinions in many, many cases. Thats the point of them - you are supposed to be able to vent/talk about whatever. There is a difference between a blog and a forum."
 
the author can write about whatever thoughts he choses. The fact that posts are allowed means that readers are free to chime in. The stuff posted here is mild. I've seen worse on political blogs. In fact, this is the only blog I've been on where the author gets personal with respondents and says "this is only about my views, if you have your own thoughts you need to get out and start your own blog". Blogging isnt for those with thin skin, especially if you are going to come off as authoritative and arrogant.
 
As Chavis indicated, its difficult for those of us with "normal" jobs to start our own full time blog. Thats about as likely as the average reader purchasing a Ford GT. I guess it really is easy to lose touch with reality in SoCal. Only a chosen few can get paid to drive luxury cars on mountain roads with free gas.

Long time lurker.....posted a few times in the forums but never here.
 
Karl, when I first began reading your blog, I was very impressed by your insight and your impartial journalism. I disagreed with you at times, but still felt you didn't have an agenda; you merely reported what you observed.
 
Lately, your rants have become rather....personal. You don't believe in global warming, and in fact, it's obvious you have a strong bias against those who do...you cover for it, though, by saying, 'yea, it's good not to pollute and be dependent on foreign oil.' You also hate GM, or at the very least, have some bias against them. Your little explanation as to buying the GT was amusing, too. Instead of saying, 'yea, i make money and bought it', you tried to explain it. funny stuff.
 
but this attack today on your readers, WOW. Your blog was obviously biased. Personally, I wish I liked GM. I just got rid of my 04 GTO because, although i loved the sound and its speed, it was a piece of trash.
 
So just know that I'm not a GM apologist. I now drive a 2000 infiniti i30.
I just posted that so you understand I'm not siding with someone that people believe is a GM apologist.
 
Mr. Editor, you need to chill out. When a journalist attacks a poster, even if provoked, it lessens your credibility. Failing to mention him by name doesn't make it ok, it just makes you seem cowardly.
 
Drop the attacks and just ignore people you think are picking on you. Mocking them by saying they are posting out of their mommy's basement....give me a break. Obviously you're a grown adult, but when you post nonsense like that it makes YOU seem like the geek. The geek who is compensating by buying a six figure supercar.

While you seem to have a personal grudge against some folks- it's likely not that important to them. Many seem simply to have issues with your lack of consistency when judging vehicles. Just a few weeks ago, a stripper 328i was praised despite it's lack of high tech goodies and luxury features. The excuse was made that people who value good balance and an excellent chassis don't need a bunch of doodads and thing-a-ma-jigs to distract because the joy was in the drive- not in button pushing. Karl, I don't think stated this explicitly, but many users did in the resulting commentary. Now, we have the G8, a car who's emphasis is on performance yet it has to be put into perspective with other cars it's not even designed to compete with. That is what I simply do not understand. Some cars are held in such high regard that comparing them to better values is not accepted yet others have to justify themselves against dozens of choices who may happen to provide more bang for the buck even if they are an entirely different class.
  
The G8 is not being imported in huge volumes and is NOT a direct competitor to ANY version of the Accord, period. The Malibu, Impala, Aura, G6, etc are all Accord competitors. Realistically, the G8's only competition is from the Chrysler LX cars however do to it's abbreviated options list, it seems GM is aiming at a narrower target of customers who appreciate the benefits of a RWD platform above all else.
 
Regardless of Karl's lukewarm response to this vehicle, it seems that it's generating a lot of excitement among the press and public on the whole. I look forward to see it on the road and I'm sure who ever decides to make the payments will appreciate it's style, space and performance. I do not think 6 months down the line they would regret not purchasing an Accord instead.

Charleytampa- interesting insight. I don't even think the whole "import vs domestic" thing is viable any longer. I don't think anyone here is financially linked to any particular manufacturer so I doubt defending a particular point of view has any real importance other than voicing an opinion on the subject matter.
 
I drive a Mazda because it was the best value in it's class, had the most features and possessed the best styling (Mazda3 five door). I made a purely objective choice base on criteria real buyers use. It gave me what I wanted for a price I could comfortably afford. My next car will be an off lease '08 CTS.
 
PS- I do think Karl is an excellent writer- his style reminds me of an English prof in college. However, I just don't agree with many of the reviews he writes nor his arrogance. The only reason any of us are here is because we want to live vicariously through his driving. If I had access to these cars myself, you'd never see me post.

Chavis10,
 
I agree with you. I just wanted people to understand wherefore I spoke (is that even a correct phrase?).
 
Karl, to me, began as a hungry journalist wanting to prove himself (although, no doubt he already did; hence this blogging gig). Lately, he seems to have become a 'fat cat': bloated, entrenched in his position, and not really as motivated as before. It shows in some of his topics. I understand it may be tiresome to think of a new blog day in and day out, but when he merely re-posts another article that a fellow IL editor creates....well, it smacks to me of a 'I'm successful and I don't really care what you think" attitude. Simply posting the article and saying, "I agree...what about you?" doesn't cut it for me in today's age.
 
I just want to get a car expert's view on the automotive industry and live, just like you said, vicariously through him/her.

So the theme for several posters is that Karl has an irrational hatred for the G8 and can't abide anyone who disagrees with him. Let's all remember how this discussion started.
 
First, Karl expresses a preference for the Accord over the G8 V6.
 
Second, Chavis responds with a sarcastic "The Accord is absolutely perfect, completely flawless."
 
Third, 1487 chimes in: "You are a G8 hater for whatever reason and then you have the audacity to try and justify it with supposedly objective rationale."
 
Finally, opfreak adds his thoughts: "another illogical karl rant on this car."
 
To sum up, we have biting sarcasm from chavis, inflammatory language from 1487, and to top it off, an insult to Karl's intelligence from opfreak.
 
Here's an idea: perhaps these guys can't abide an automotive editor who disagrees with them.
 
1487, you hold a special place in the hearts of Edmunds and IL readers. Do you really not understand why you get so much heat during some of these discussions? Do you really believe it's because you fail to toe some imaginary party line? You are rude, insulting, and accusatory when the subject matter presses your buttons. You flame us with impossibly long rants when someone disagrees with you. You cry foul over some of the most innocuous comments regarding domestic nameplates, drop snide remarks at imports at every opportunity, give backhanded praise to one or two non-domestic models, and you wonder why people call you an apologist.
 
So I went and called you a domestic diva. Maybe that wasn't very helpful, so I'm sorry. But for all our sanity, take a few days off and look back over some of your posts from the past year or so. Surely you'll see why some of us respond the way we do.

ewilfong -- You left out that he also creates phantom user names to make it look like more people support his position than actually do.

wow, I write a post explaining how Karl likes to attack people and then he writes the above...not even addressing who he is accusing of being a 'phantom user name'.
 
I take umbrage at that post, if it is in fact addressed to me. The only reason I suggest that it may be is because it was created immediately after I addressed a few gripes that I had.
 
Yea, you're really mature, Karl. You just lost a reader. I'm sure you don't care, which explains why your attitude has gone down the toilet.
 
But what do you care anyway? i'm just a 'phantom user name'. Heck, I'm probably just perusing my momma's basement right now.
 
Wait, there are no basements here in Tampa. I must be hanging in the foyer.
 
No, wait. I'm just a phantom user. I just used Tampa to confuse people.
 
Karl, YOU are probably creating phantom user names to justify your personal attacks.

Hmm...wasn't referring to him at all, though with that reaction maybe I should have.
 
Wish I could say he'll be missed...

1487, it's super easy to start a blog. you can buy a domain from godaddy for next to nothing and there's a great program called wordpress that offers thousands of free blogging motifs. You can literally have a fully functional site running in under 30 minutes.

Okay, I'm going to take just one sample post and break it down. I could pick from hundreds of posts from Chavis10, 1487 or Opfreak but I have the time and interest to do this now with this post on this topic. It won't happen again, because it's clear to me that these guys really love being acknowledged at all by me and other rational posters, so doing this only fuels their fire. But I'm going to do it this one time to prove an obvious point. Please 1487, Chavis10 and Opfreak, don't assume I just picked one flawed post to "pick on" and otherwise your posts are billiant. They are all a mess, and this one is just representative of them.
 
"Unfortunately some of us don't worship Karl and have minds to make our own assessments. It's pretty interesting to me that Edmunds.com is a free domaim for anyone to use but Karl likes to cry foul and beat his chest (gorilla style) when people disagree with his opinions."
 
Not sure why that's so interesting to you, but bottom line: it is free. If you don't like it you can leave. The fact that you remain on a such a "biased" blog with a "gorilla" for a host ulitmately makes you look like the monkey, not me.
 
"And who in the heck has time to start their own blog if they work a full time job unrelated to the auto industry? It's really not that serious (to me at least), we are only talking about cars here folks- it's just a hobby/interest. If you, Karl, want to dictate opinions then make your blog private and charge money or membership fee- that'll insure your loyal followers will never disagree with the "knowledge" you dissemenate."
 
Yup, this blog is a MAJOR time suck, and when one considers that I still have to manage 12 people, edit stories, write stories, lead projects, accomplish media interviews and a dozen other things on a daily basis it's not like I'm trying to fill my day with things to do. But I do it, so if you or 1487 or opfreak really wanted to do it, too, you could.
   
"It's pretty interesting how your faithful soldiers on the front line who jump to your defense (against us big bad bullies) never have anything constructive to add to the discussion. If you checked your ego, we could have fruitful discussions about all things automotive."
 
Chavis10, there are thousands of people who read the Edmunds blogs that would make the exact same comment about you.
 
"However, your arrogance simply turns some people off along with your childish name calling."
 
By "childish name calling" do you mean like "Gorilla" or "loyal followers?"
 
"Perhaps being on the radio or a ten second snippet on World News Tonight has gone to your head... I'm really not sure."
 
The media interviews haven't gone to my head, but has owning 20 cars (and 10 motorcycles) over the past 23 years, plus driving another 500 cars over the past 10 years given me cause to think I know something about cars? Yup -- have to admit it has. I'm not sure how many cars you've owned or driven Chavis10. I think 1487 once admitted to owning two or three cars in his lifetime (an Oldsmobile and Subaru maybe?). Regardless, do I think I have more experience and wisdom in judging cars than you or opfreak or 1487 have? YES, I do!
 
"If you are such a learned authority, you'd be able to entertain differing opinions constructively but that is clearly beyond your grasp."
 
You mean like the differing opinions I hear regularly from Blueguydotcom or Dougtheengineer or Sabastion or Blackadder or Mnorm1 or Carlisimo or Ddasterdly or just about every other reader? It's not the differing opinions that cause a problem, it's the inaccurate and delusional basis for argument that you and 1487 and opfreak reference repeatedly.
 
"And dude, this a blog- not Camelot- there's no castle to be King of." Didn't say "King" or "Castle," said "Lord and Master of the Karl on Cars Universe."
 
Once again, if you're going to attack my words at least make sure you use MY WORDS.
  
"I'm still trying to figure out the "parent's basement/dorm room" line that you've used numerous times...??? Please state who you are referring to- it sure as heck isn't me."
 
So you say...
  
"You hate just about every American car while you try to sugarcoat this fact in your write-ups, your hostile responses to 1487 have shed clear light on your bias. If it isn't a Ford GT or possibly a CTS, it's junk. You like the Chrysler LX cars, but attribute all of their positive qualities to MB. I still fail to understand how you have such an affinity for the Charger/300 when they are based on a car developed in the early '90s."
 
So my comments on the GM Lambdas and GMT900s and the new Chevy Malibu and the Ford Fusion and the Ford Escape and the Ford Mustang and the Jeep Wrangler show that I "hate just about every Aemrican car" huh?
  
"GM developes and all new RWD platform and yet the Accord is dynamically superior? And you wonder why a few people question your prose.... Wow"
 
Please find the statement where I say, "the Accord is dynamically superior" to the G8? I guess you missed this line from my original post: "So the Pontiac loses in terms of fuel mileage and power and wins in terms of driving dynamics and interior space against Accord and Camry."
 
Chavis10, you and 1487 and opfreak clutter up my blog with one-sided viewpoints, inaccurate statements and childish attacks. And if you think I'm the only one who feels this way you're even more delusional about your status in this blogosphere than you are regarding vehicle evaluation. This situation causes me -- when I have the time and inclination -- to call you all out on these issues. But again, I know that paying any attention to you at all only feeds the animal.
 
Thus it's really a no-win situation. Either I ignore you and let you repeatedly foul my blog with pointless and wreckless commentary, or I call you out for it and watch you foul it EVEN MORE with pointless and wreckless reaction.
 
For now I'll go back to ignoring you, and suggest others do the same.

this blog makes a lot of sense to me, im new to this so bear with me, but as a consumer, if i had 28 grand to spend on a car, i would like to know what i can get for that amount, and thats how this got started.
 
G8 and accord have nothing in common apart from seating 5 people. for 28 grand , u get an overpriced front wheel drive family sedan, or a bargain 5-series with a v6.
now if only it came with a 6spd manual...

Way to go, Karl! You nailed their behaviors perfectly. I still read your blog daily but rarely comment anymore, partly because of the histrionics these 3 generate, especially 1487, whose middle name must be "ridiculous." It's kinda funny also that he won't even admit to exactly what car he owns.
 
Oh, and I agree with what's been said about starting a blog -- it's easy; I have one myself (see my CarSpace for the link). The hard part is keeping it going, LOL.

"1487, you hold a special place in the hearts of Edmunds and IL readers. Do you really not understand why you get so much heat during some of these discussions? Do you really believe it's because you fail to toe some imaginary party line? You are rude, insulting, and accusatory when the subject matter presses your buttons. You flame us with impossibly long rants when someone disagrees with you. You cry foul over some of the most innocuous comments regarding domestic nameplates, drop snide remarks at imports at every opportunity, give backhanded praise to one or two non-domestic models, and you wonder why people call you an apologist"
 
I'm not here to win a popularity contest, but apparently you are. Suit yourself. Here is the bottom line. My belief is that on the whole most cars are relatively equal. The fact that I point out biases and double standards in this blog or any other does not signify being an apologist. The entire point of being an apologist is that you are defending the indefensible. You have never caught me defending a bad product on here. If you think the G8 is an example of a bad product that deserves to be called mediocre than I suggest you take it up with the writers at IL, C&D, MT and Automobile magazine, not me. THEY are the ones who have stated the car is exactly what they've been looking for from Pontiac. Karl is the one who is on an island here, not 1487. Instead of trying to prove that I'm biased why dont you try to figure out why Karl seems to be the only auto scribe who finds the G8 to be "business as usual from GM" while others are calling it a bargain BMW wannabe.

"ewilfong -- You left out that he also creates phantom user names to make it look like more people support his position than actually do."
 
Hopefully that isnt addressed to me. I dont have time to post any more than I do. Besides, you have to use your name and email address to register. That is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard but again it comes with being arrogant. Only someone truly arrogant could have the gall to suggest that ONLY one person in the entire virtual world disagrees with him. BTW, I dont diagree with everything Karl says and I have rarely posted in his anti Global warming blogs where he gets SWAMPED with rebuttals from those who do believe in it. Again, its merely a delusion created in the mind of someone who believes he is the supreme authority on everything. There are 300M people in this country and I am crazy enough to believe that there is more than one person who doesnt agree with 100% of what KArl writes.

"1487, it's super easy to start a blog. you can buy a domain from godaddy for next to nothing and there's a great program called wordpress that offers thousands of free blogging motifs. You can literally have a fully functional site running in under 30 minutes."
 
Thanks for the tip. Again, I have to work so I really cant blog about cars full time. And I do question how I could blog about new cars when I cant drive them for free.
 
"By "childish name calling" do you mean like "Gorilla" or "loyal followers?"
 
KArl, just a tip, if you are going to "break down" or take apart someone's commentary you might want to actually try to find stuff THEY actually posted to discredit them. I never called you a "gorilla" nor did Chavis so I'm confused as to how you can use that against us. People are free to post whatever they chose. I am only responsible fo what I write and the same applies to every poster here. Now you want to hold people accountable for comments they didn't even author.
 
" I think 1487 once admitted to owning two or three cars in his lifetime (an Oldsmobile and Subaru maybe?). Regardless, do I think I have more experience and wisdom in judging cars than you or opfreak or 1487 have? "
 
Here is the thing ( I dont know why certain concepts are so hard to grasp for you): If you are saying that anyone who lacks your experience in driving free press cars is unknowledgable about cars than you might as well close this blog down. There isn't ONE person who posts here who has driven as many cars as you have. I am flattered that you remember so much of what I have said in the past and you are correct in that I haven't owned as many cars as you have. That would be impossible since I am likely close to 2 decades your junior. I have only driven 50+ cars in my driving lifetime so I am not as experienced as you are but that has little to do with the inconsitencies in your criticisms. I dont need experience behind the wheel of 500 cars to point out hypocrisy and inconsistency. As CHavis alluded to earlier your opinion of the G8 is totally contradictory to your recent post about eh 328i in which you indicated fancy features arent necessary on a RWD performance sedan. If you dont need all the bells and whistles on a $35k 328i why would you claim the Accord is superior to the G8 because it has nav and other high tech features that are deemed superfluous on BMWs?
 
Your entire rant about how anyone who doesnt agree with you is irrational and ill informed is silly and that's evident to anyone who can read and comprehend. Just by reading what's posted here its apparent who is knowledgable about cars and who can present their opinion in a logical fashion. Contrary to what you believe there are many people here who have something to contribute and some agree with you 100% of the time (although that number is rather small) and others agree with you occasionally. I base one's auto industry IQ on what they post here and how they present it. Conversely, you feel that the only criteria for respecting someone's position or knowledge is how frequently they agree with you. Its amazing that someone of your age and experience level has never had to deal with dissenting opinions in the past. I dont know how you've managed to live in a bubble where your opinion is the only one that signifies intelligence but I assure you its a big world out there and not everyone believes what you believe. I mistakenly thought you blogged in order to get the pulse of other enthusiasts but instead you sought to create and echo chamber in which "fans" can take turns admiring you and corroborating every claim you make.

"It's not the differing opinions that cause a problem, it's the inaccurate and delusional basis for argument that you and 1487 and opfreak reference repeatedly. "
 
Feel free to cite any example of a post I have submitted that is "delusional" or "inaccurate". Everyone makes some mistakes and I have occasionally forgotten some things but that is human nature. Its very easy to make accusations and try to belittle those you have vendettas against, but its quite another matter to actually substantiate your baseless claims. Anyone who reads this blog regularly knows who has a command of the subject matter and who does not. If I disagree I make it clear as to why I feel that way. Can't say you do the same. You're more into personal attacks and derisive labels.
 
Numerous individuals have stated plainly why they don't get your animosity towards the G8 considering your background as a supposed enthusiasts. If you actually read some of what we wrote (which you admitted you do not) you would likely see that many of us actually explain explicitly why we disagree. Its difficult to take your attacks with anything but a grain of salt when you made it clear you don't even read what many posters submit. You know we are wrong and yet you haven't even read our opinions. How does THAT work?
 
Simply disagreeing with Karl doesn't make one delusional. However, believing that everyone with an internet connection except big bad 1487 agrees with you all the time and knows better than to have their own opinion......some migh consider than a little delusional.
 
"It's kinda funny also that he won't even admit to exactly what car he owns. "
 
Kinda funny that you never asked me. 2007 Aura. I will gladly answer any reasonable question. Not sure where you got the impression I was being secretive about my car. Up until 2 years ago we also had a (GASP!) Corolla in the household. I think that's an import but I'll let a real auto expert like Karl tell me for sure. The anti import/pro GM at all costs narrative certainly sounds good to the Fan Club, but as soon as you get into the details it falls apart. Not that you or you mentor would let pesky facts get in the way of future insults. Carry on.

"Chavis10, you and 1487 and opfreak clutter up my blog with one-sided viewpoints, inaccurate statements and childish attacks. And if you think I'm the only one who feels this way you're even more delusional about your status in this blogosphere than you are regarding vehicle evaluation. This situation causes me -- when I have the time and inclination -- to call you all out on these issues. But again, I know that paying any attention to you at all only feeds the animal. "
 
For the record, I don't enjoy your "recognition" and I would rather you didnt respond unless its going to be with something that acknowledges others have given you insight. Never do we see a "good point" or "I see your point" or "That makes sense to me" from you because your position is that you know it all and have thought of it all and anyone who doesn't see that is stupid. When you respond by ignoring the objective points made and jump into generalizations about posters it only creates more work for me as I have to defend myself (half the time I'm being lumped in with someone else who said something unrelated to my post) and deconstruct your childish rants. I don't post in every blog, nor do I disagree with everything you say. If I post something that is in agreement with you I suppose it's not "clutter' but as soon as I disagree you go into attack mode. You never acknowledge the times when I (and others like Chavis) have concurred with your opinion and that helps fuel the myth that we are out there "cluttering" up your blogs by attacking everything you say simply becaue you dont like you. I don't know you well enough to know if I dont like you. I don't like your pompous attitude but I can only hope that this arena inflates your ego to the point where what we see here isnt a true reflection of your real personality. Outside of this blog you could be a very nice guy.
 
Since you are the one with the important title I would think that you should be concerned about your status and credibility in the blogosphere instead of worrying about mine. Those who can read and think for themselves don't have a problem with what I'm saying here and that's all that counts. I'm not that interested in hosannas from people who think its only acceptable to post here if you brown nose the author. Getting the respect of those individuals is definitely low on my list of priorities. The atmosphere here is not unlike that of partisan talk show hosts on radio or cable news. I didn't realize Karl's goal was to create a closed off echo chamber in which everyone sees and hears the same thing and hates the same people and manufacturers.

210delray,
+1, 1487 times

""It's pretty interesting how your faithful soldiers on the front line who jump to your defense (against us big bad bullies) never have anything constructive to add to the discussion. If you checked your ego, we could have fruitful discussions about all things automotive."
   
Chavis10, there are thousands of people who read the Edmunds blogs that would make the exact same comment about you."
  
What ego can I possibly have? I've owned two economy cars in my life, own a two bedroom house and have an entry level accounting job- I have nothing to brag about. Though, I'd like to see these thousands of people you are referring to.
  
"Yup, this blog is a MAJOR time suck, and when one considers that I still have to manage 12 people, edit stories, write stories, lead projects, accomplish media interviews and a dozen other things on a daily basis it's not like I'm trying to fill my day with things to do. But I do it, so if you or 1487 or opfreak really wanted to do it, too, you could. "
  
What part of hobby/interest do you not understand? What would I blog about sir? Driving cars has nothing to do with my job. I post entries here during downtime at work and have OTHER hobbies and interests outside of cars. Your blog is simply one of the many in which I participate. Again, I don't understand how you expect to have a public blog and don't expect rebuttal from users with differing views. You are in the wrong business if you can't take the heat.
  
"It won't happen again, because it's clear to me that these guys really love being acknowledged at all by me and other rational posters, so doing this only fuels their fire"
  
Again, giving yourself too much credit. What do I profit from you acknowledging my handle on your blog? I'm sorry that I do not put you on some sort of expert automotive pedestal or worship you as some sort of car god.
  
And this statement is the epitome of self-aggrandizement:
  
"ewilfong -- You left out that he also creates phantom user names to make it look like more people support his position than actually do"
  
Wow man, you are really over the top on this one and seriously paranoid. Your moderators constantly delete posts off of carspace and threaten to take away posting privileges for "breaking the terms of use" or whatever while you fly off at the mouth with every insulting adjective you can find in Roget's Thesaurus.
  
"By "childish name calling" do you mean like "Gorilla" or "loyal follower"
  
Here's what I wrote: "It's pretty interesting to me that Edmunds.com is a free domaim for anyone to use but Karl likes to cry foul and beat his chest (gorilla style) when people disagree with his opinions."
  
Did I call you a Gorilla? No, I did not and the loyal follower was directed at users who jumped to your defense as if you need protection. Besides, you just called me a monkey, lol:
  
"t's pretty interesting to me that Edmunds.com is a free domaim for anyone to use but Karl likes to cry foul and beat his chest (gorilla style) when people disagree with his opinions."
  
"For now I'll go back to ignoring you, and suggest others do the samw"
  
We finally agree. Now just stick to that this time and everything will be peachy :-)
  
Again- as 1487 stated, I don't disagree with everything Karl writes but once you disagree with him a couple of times, he puts you his special list and is determined to demonstrate his superior intelligence.
  
"You mean like the differing opinions I hear regularly from Blueguydotcom or Dougtheengineer or Sabastion or Blackadder or Mnorm1 or Carlisimo or Ddasterdly or just about every other reader? It's not the differing opinions that cause a problem, it's the inaccurate and delusional basis for argument that you and 1487 and opfreak reference repeatedly. "
  
Here's my question for you: when, if ever, have you acquiesced to ONE single differing opinion that any of the above users have made? The point that you are missing is that you write as if you already know all the answers and it's up to us users of lesser intelligence to rise to your level of knowledge to have meaningful discussion. It's almost like watching Jeopardy- just as Alex gives us the answers while we have to come up with the question, Karl is effectually doing the same thing.
  
"Second, Chavis responds with a sarcastic "The Accord is absolutely perfect, completely flawless." "
  
It wasn't at all sarcastic- just as you suggested 1487 go back and read over his posts- perhaps you should read over the Edmunds.com staff's posts involving the Accord. Other than styling (which is purely subjective) it seems the common agreement is that the Accord is flawless- maybe I am wrong but that's what I've got from my reading.
 
Secondly- do you agree or disagree with the fact that the G8 is not intended to be an Accord competitor? If Karl is such an authority, he would know they are aimed at two different drivers so comparing it FWD mainstream sedans is a stretch of the imagination. That was my main point of view as was I trying to figure out how mention of the Accord even made it into the review

"Way to go, Karl! You nailed their behaviors perfectly. I still read your blog daily but rarely comment anymore, partly because of the histrionics these 3 generate, especially 1487, whose middle name must be "ridiculous." It's kinda funny also that he won't even admit to exactly what car he owns"
 
He didn't nail anything. What's your opinion on the original blog/subject matter? This is exactly what I'm talking about about meaningless posts from people who's only job is to pat Karl on the back. Call me what you want, but I at least my (original) comments had something to do with Karl's report on the car.
 
"Here's an idea: perhaps these guys can't abide an automotive editor who disagrees with them. "
 
I don't think that's the case at all. I've agreed with Karl numerous times over the years it just so happens that I disagree more often.

ewilfong- do you agree or disagree with my following passage:
 
"While you seem to have a personal grudge against some folks- it's likely not that important to them. Many seem simply to have issues with your lack of consistency when judging vehicles. Just a few weeks ago, a stripper 328i was praised despite it's lack of high tech goodies and luxury features. The excuse was made that people who value good balance and an excellent chassis don't need a bunch of doodads and thing-a-ma-jigs to distract because the joy was in the drive- not in button pushing. Karl, I don't think stated this explicitly, but many users did in the resulting commentary. Now, we have the G8, a car who's emphasis is on performance yet it has to be put into perspective with other cars it's not even designed to compete with. That is what I simply do not understand. Some cars are held in such high regard that comparing them to better values is not accepted yet others have to justify themselves against dozens of choices who may happen to provide more bang for the buck even if they are an entirely different class.
   
The G8 is not being imported in huge volumes and is NOT a direct competitor to ANY version of the Accord, period. The Malibu, Impala, Aura, G6, etc are all Accord competitors. Realistically, the G8's only competition is from the Chrysler LX cars however do to it's abbreviated options list, it seems GM is aiming at a narrower target of customers who appreciate the benefits of a RWD platform above all else"
 
Please comment

I didn't read the original blog entry the same way you did. It sounded to me like Karl was saying the G8, while not directly competing for family car buyers, was surprisingly capable of doing so. Being competitive (albeit not the best) outside its own niche is a good thing, isn't it?

karl I form indepedant belifes. at times I agree with you, at times I disagree.
 
your treatement of the G8 has been so flip flop, and 180 degrees out of step with most other reviewers, that pointing that, should hardly be news to you. Yet some how you feel surprised.
 
I pride my self on not going with the crowd... sheep follow, apparently, you seem to enjoy sheep, because of your oh to low opinion of those that disagree with.
 
My biggest issue with you right now... is you feel you some how are better then, the posters you chose to call out, yet you stoop to a level, thats far below any and all of those you name

That was an entirely too rational way to look at my initial post carlisimo. How can you expect to have multiple responses of 500 paragraphs each when you exhibit such logical analysis?

ps, a much more straight shooting site, that while has its issues,
 
summed up the v6 g8 "It combines a slew of promising parts– clean well-proportioned exterior, driver-oriented interior, DOHC engine and all-independent rear-drive chassis– into something much less special than it could have, indeed, should have been."
 
from ttac.
 
where as the g8 v8 got:
"While not clearly a Pontiac, the G8 is clearly a bargain for anyone who's been seeking a super-sized, pushrod-powered, two-ton 3-Series. "
 
in karls mind is backwards, with no real explanation, and the fact that in the v8 the trival manner of no rear head rests was a problem, but in the v6 it can be over looked

I'll respond once more in this discussion only because I've got multiple people (guess who???) blatantly calling me a liar:
 
I said:
"ewilfong -- You left out that he also creates phantom user names to make it look like more people support his position than actually do."
  
Then 1487 said:
"Hopefully that isnt addressed to me. I dont have time to post any more than I do. Besides, you have to use your name and email address to register. That is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard but again it comes with being arrogant. Only someone truly arrogant could have the gall to suggest that ONLY one person in the entire virtual world disagrees with him. BTW, I dont diagree with everything Karl says and I have rarely posted in his anti Global warming blogs where he gets SWAMPED with rebuttals from those who do believe in it. Again, its merely a delusion created in the mind of someone who believes he is the supreme authority on everything. There are 300M people in this country and I am crazy enough to believe that there is more than one person who doesnt agree with 100% of what KArl writes"
 
And Chavis10 said:
"Wow man, you are really over the top on this one and seriously paranoid. Your moderators constantly delete posts off of carspace and threaten to take away posting privileges for "breaking the terms of use" or whatever while you fly off at the mouth with every insulting adjective you can find in Roget's Thesaurus."
 
Okay folks, just clear my name, we did an IP check and confirmed that one mr215 was, indeed, 1487 under a different user name. He was told to stop registering more than one name and that username was removed from the system. I think he did it because he was tired of me completely ignoring all 1487 posts.
 
Don't believe me? Do a google search of "Karl on Cars" and "mr215" -- then read the posts and decide for yourself.

It's interesting how 'reasonable debate' or 'topical arguments' are labelled 'sheep'. It's as if some trolls correlate being a socially inept web-tyrant with 'good debate'. One can strongly disagree yet still keep your dignity. Try it sometime, trolls.
 
I also laugh that it is a troll's mission to berate the blog for the better good of mankind. LOL, I guess everyone has a justification for they way they act. It's sad because there is no personal accountabliity in that type of behavior.
 
1487+mr215=OWN3D!

"Okay folks, just clear my name, we did an IP check and confirmed that one mr215 was, indeed, 1487 under a different user name. He was told to stop registering more than one name and that username was removed from the system. I think he did it because he was tired of me completely ignoring all 1487 posts.
  
Don't believe me? Do a google search of "Karl on Cars" and "mr215" -- then read the posts and tell me what you think."
 
Now you are sounding pathetic- who in the heck puts this much effort into a simple discussion about cars? You conveniently left out the part where your people denied 1487 access to the site forcing him to create another user name. I remember that distinctly a few months back or whenever it was. Also, why have we not seen mr215 and 1487 post at the same time since you claim that he's pretending to be multiple people simultaneously? If my recollection is correct, I stop seeing mr215 as soon as I began seeing 1487's posts reappear. Hmmm...
 
Sorry buddy, BUSTED. Try telling the WHOLE truth next time and you'd have more credibility.
 
1487- I apologize for jumping in for you... I couldn't help it on this one and please clear this up in case I am wrong regarding the above events.
 
I don't go in CarSpace anymore because the moderators kept sending me emails saying I was too hostile- so I probably would've had a new user name too if I wanted to keep posting. I'd encourage them to read Karl's commentary to see the moral/mature example he leaves us to follow. I've never encountered a single writer who's so full of himself- I've written into Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road and Track and if you're correct or have a logical point of contention, guess what, they acknowledge it!! What a concept. Csaba Csere editor-in-chief of C&D is an MIT grad (and a real auto expert and engineer) and even he has agreed with things I've written in before and made changes to things printed online. I've written in to just about every newspaper/magazine/publication that I read and Karl is the ONLY one who behaves in such a deplorable manner. Never have my opinions been called "delusional" or "irrational." It's amazing how other journalists find my insights incredibly lucid yet Mr. Brauer finds zero value to my rhetoric. But that keeps it interesting!!!

In order to assuage this matter- the prevailing verdict is that Karl already knows the absolute truth on all matters so to disagree is to be wrong. Okay, I'm sold.
 
Anyway- I finally saw a G8 but I don't know if it was a V6 or GT because they are identical from the front view. Very sporty looking car and if gas prices weren't so high, I'd drive the V8 version for a few years just to feel that thrust.

cruiserhead1 - my referance to sheep, is that people that agree with karl seem to be admired by him.
 
But people that disagree with him from time to time, get put into the 'delusion' catergory.
 
Just go read the orginal G8 post. "GTO Part Duex"
 
Where karl Kills this car on EVERYTHING.
Radio buttons radio, AC wrong, Head rest wrong. center stack wrong. No Satelite radio wrong, Just go back and read about how bad the G8 GT was to karl before.
 
Then to get this post that says the V6 is a Viable alternative to the accord. Wouldn't all those factors when comparing them to the accord & camry?
 
Dont both those cars come with Adjustable rear head rests? Do they have the volume knob on the right side? Do they have satelite radio?
Are the AC buttons on the right side for Karl?
 
If this post was made in a vacuum with out the orginal G8 post, it would be acceptable, but when Karl allready trashed this car once, to now try to re-write history, in my eys is illogical.
 
And dont forgot Karls words on drive the G8-GT
 
""Yes Karl, but how does it drive? That's what this car is all about!!!" Hmm...drives fine. It certainly didn't inspire me to break into song, but, it's fine. I guess "fine" dynamics, decent interior materials and bizarre/annoying ergonomics equate to a car that I don't hate, but don't really like, either."
 
and now it compares with an accord? With a less powerfull engine, that gets ~1 mpg better then the v8?
 
That has a 5spd tranny vs a 6spd?
 
What worm hole did we go through, that now the stripped version of this car, compares to the best Accord ever?
 
Like I stated before, an accord with the Nav system, costs as much as a basic G8-GT.
 
And since we know that Karl hated the G8-GT, how can he stand the G8?

"I still have to manage 12 people, edit stories, write stories, lead projects, accomplish media interviews and a dozen other things on a daily basis"
 
That's the key. Karl, you aren't some Internet Wing Nut, like myself. You write for a blog where you represent yourself as management for a company that's an authority on automobiles. As such, you need to be held to a much higher level of behavior than some random posters. Yes, some other posters are very rough around the edges and somewhat relentless, but your attacks are simply unprofessional. You have to be above that. They don't.

"Okay folks, just clear my name, we did an IP check and confirmed that one mr215 was, indeed, 1487 under a different user name. He was told to stop registering more than one name and that username was removed from the system. I think he did it because he was tired of me completely ignoring all 1487 posts. "
 
That was 6+months ago, because I couldnt login on Carspace or the blogs at the time. Once I was able to login to the blogs using my original name I was using 1487 again. The other name had nothing to do with anything you said or your supposed ignoring of my posts, it was all about not being able to login. Someone named Karen tried to ban me from posting because my views of imports weren't as positive as many other posters in Carspace. She never could explain to me how I violated the user agreement and that was likely due to the fact that I had not done anything wrong.
 
Either way I am only ONE person. When I posted under Mr215 there were no posts under 1487 and thus your claim that I am posting under multiple names simultaneously in order to make it seem like that there are many people that disagree with you is fallacious. I am not opfreak, Chavis, bluedotcom, brn, tampa or anyone else here that has disagreed with you. Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theory.
 
 Thats old news now since I've been able to use "1487" without a problem for a long time now.
 
Once again, you give yourself too much credit. What's ironic is that edmunds and carspace has a strict user agreement that the EIC violates on a regular basis with personal attacks and profane name calling. Way to set an example Mr. Brauer.
 
"One can strongly disagree yet still keep your dignity. Try it sometime, trolls. "
 
Read all the posts here. To anyone but an unabashed Karl fan it's obvious who has maintained their dignity and composure and who has stooped to new levels of immaturity and indecency. I assure you, I am not embarrassed by anything I have posted thus far in this exchange. I doubt Karl will feel the same way after looking back at his malicious diatribes. As someone intimated earlier, his behavior is hardly appropriate for an editor in chief of a major online publication.
 
" It's sad because there is no personal accountabliity in that type of behavior. "
 
The fact that there is no accountability is why Karl is thriving in this forum. He can say anything he wants and beliltte others with no repurcussions. We cannot respond in kind because we would likely be expelled from edmunds.com for violating the rules. Online Karl can bully, call people A-holes and a host of other petty things with no fear because he's behind a desk somewhere in California. Everyone's tough from behind the keyboard. I would wager that engaging in similar belligerent behavior in the real world would be quite dangerous for someone like Karl. Welcome to the age of the Virtual Bully. It must be nice to have the freedom to attack at will knowing that your targets must respond in a coherent and respectful nature in order to preserve their posting priveleges. Then again, responding in a manner that avoids the hostility and vulgarity employed by KB does make it clear that we can be forceful yet refined in our responses. You don't respond to an angry 12 year old by pretending you're 12. The same logic applies here.

It is a true hallmark of narcissism when you believe that every decision that others make is somehow related to you. It is hilarious that Karl would actually believe that my brief appearance under a new handle was entirely related to some clandestine plot to destroy his credibility and create an illusion of mass dissention in the blogs. If such a theory came from anyone else I would have a hard time believing that person was being serious.

Chavis10,
  
I read the stripper 328i blog as a general comment on the entry-level luxury market, with particular emphasis on the 328/335 debate (which, among bimmer enthusiasts, can get surprisingly fierce). Hang out at a place like bimmerfest.com for a while, and you'll see some pretty funny knockdown-drag outs over purist issues like the need for leather, navigation, iDrive, and even power seats and windows. Some of these guys will tell you to slap the sport package onto a basic 328i and call it a day. Karl seems to be on board with this line of thinking.
  
I read this G8 blog as an entirely different kind of discussion, one that addresses a question some people might legitimately ask. Four doors, plenty of room, good power, between $25K and $30K? Like it or not, the Accord and Camry are extremely popular and will be on that kind of list in tens of thousands of homes this year. Why wouldn't the G8 V6 and the Charger be on the same list? Now, yes, I believe the Charger SXT is the G8 V6's primary competition, while the G8 GT is up against the 300C and Charger R/T. Remember that this article was about the V6 version, and the Charger SXT was included. I believe many households who would consider a G8 V6 would want to expand their cross-shopping beyond the Charger, unless they were dead set on RWD. The Camry and Accord are very popular and meet the criteria I listed above, so I think it's reasonable to assume that many folks might include those cars on their lists, too. Why didn't Karl include even more vehicles, like the Malibu, Altima, or even the Maxima? I don't know, maybe he didn't feel like it. It's a blog, not the be-all and end-all Edmunds.com G8 comparison test of the century.

Wow you leave for a couple of days and come back to this...
 
An entertaining read, no doubt, but sort of alarming. I think a lot of what has been said was necessary, but I would definitely agree that people are avoiding posting because that most of these blogs receive, which is a shame.
 
Most people want to be able to post a simple message without being jumped all over, and I imagine that most people don't have time for 3 or 4 post long rebuttles despite the fact they insist they have too much work to blog on their own, lol.

"Most people want to be able to post a simple message without being jumped all over, and I imagine that most people don't have time for 3 or 4 post long rebuttles despite the fact they insist they have too much work to blog on their own, lol."
 
who are all these regular people who are being attacked? Maybe I am missing something. The people who get attacked (like myself) are accustomed to such antics. I fail to see how that would "scare" anyone else from posting. Well, if they agree with me I could definitely see how they would be scared to post but that's about it.

"who are all these regular people who are being attacked?"
 
Everyone else who posts here.

dougtheeng and sabastian- the strong words are usually between Mr. Brauer and few specific individuals. Don't be scared to leave your comments.
  
ewilfong- I understand your prespective but I simply do not agree. When you take into account the limited amount of G8s available, I think you will begin to see my point. It will not be marketed as some nice grocery getter that will last 300k miles and will never need dealer servicing. Look at your average Accord/Camry ad- they tell you absolutely nothing about the car- they just reinforce the Honda/Toyota brand.
  
You cannot ignore the fact that the majority of Camrys and Accords (60-70%?) are Four bangers and therefore people view the entire model as a fuel efficient reliable family hauler. This is not the same buyer who will want the G8. The spirit of these models is completely different. All G8, Charger, and 300 buyers WANT the V8 but obviously some can't rationalize such a purchase. Conversly, most Camy and Accord buyers could care less about having the V6 version and just want the reputation that each car possesses.
 
I'm familiar with this BMW "purist" notion and it's complete BS. I don't understand how unique chassis tuning equates to demanding more money. If BMW is to be judged under a different set of criteria, than they shouldn't be compared to other cars. You can't treat BMW as some sort of boutique brand and criticize other cars for not following the same model. This is one of my many beefs with Mr. Brauer- the double standards are amazing. We are not talking purpose built sports cars here- we are talking about high volume utilitarian sedans and coupes. If I aspire to own a premium brand car, why is it okay to for to pay a lot of money without gettting any features? Why can't the car offer more bang for the buck?

"dougtheeng and sabastian- the strong words are usually between Mr. Brauer and few specific individuals. Don't be scared to leave your comments. "
 
Haha I'm not scared to leave my comments whatsoever - I was just making a general statement based on what I've observed. I find your rebuttles amusing, if not frustrating. However, not everyone is willing to get sucked into a spitting battle, if you catch my drift.
 
"Maybe I am missing something."
 
If I were a betting man.....

I think that these cars will be cross shopped although I don't know the innermost thoughts of the buying public (some people here speak as if they do). The Accord V6 is a great car and I would choose it over a G8 V6 as well for the reasons mentioned.
  
"Thus it's really a no-win situation. Either I ignore you and let you repeatedly foul my blog with pointless and wreckless commentary, or I call you out for it and watch you foul it EVEN MORE with pointless and wreckless reaction."
  
Wow. You're right about that! But hey, all's fair in love and blogs.

my my my
 
after being away & out of touch
I came here expecting a discussion of the G8
 
weird....

But Ray, you got a "discussion" of the G8.
 
Oh, wait. You probably meant "rational discussion."

1487 is still going like the energizer bunny. You know what they say
 
"If the diaper fits, you must acquit"