I agree that hyundai should not be looked down on anymore...
this was after I drove a 2006/07 sonata, for ~2000 miles as a rental. Very sold, the tranny shift points could have been better. But I was very suprised after the tin can, I drove in a few years before that.

I am glad Hyundai is making strides. I am also glad to see more competition. Having said that, a low mileage two-year-old certified Mercedes S350 with excellent warranty (and far better service) will cost about the same as a base V-6 Genesis. Given the choice at the same price, I would pick the Mercedes.

Note to Hyundai:
 
Do yourself a BIG favor-make sure that you don't use the same marketing scheme that Infiniti used back in 89-90. That campaign got them off to a horrendous start. It's taken them almost 15 years to be truly respected and seen as a viable alternative to the European luxury makes.

This car deserves a lot of consideration and exposes luxury cars as overpriced ego boosters for those who refuse to believe. This is yet another car that shows that increasingly luxury brands offer little more than prestige and great dealer service relative to "lower" brands. The import luxury driving faithful wont consider this car but those who value performance, engineering and value more than snob appeal would be stupid to ignore this car. This proves to me that Toyota's marketshare increases in the US are about to come to an end. Not only are the domestic brands (Ok well GM and Ford) stepping up their game but Hyundai is coming on strong and the more share you have the more you have to lose. In five years I think headlines will be about Toyota's loss of share as opposed to how Toyota is taking share. Lexus models used to offer value in the same way the Genesis does but ever since Lexus becamse successful they have moved their pricing closer and closer to that of their German competitors. The Genesis is very much in the spirit of the first LS400 even if Lexus no longer makes cars that offer that sort of value proposition.

hyundai is definitely sprinting to catch up to the pack... My parents used to own a 1988 Hyundai Excel which was a total piece! but I've driven a couple of sonatas and elantras as rentals (I've recommended elantras to a lot of people to buy instead of civics and corollas) and I have to say they are seriously impressive cars...

I think the Genesis is ugly on the outside, but the interior looks nice enough - except for the wood, of course, but I'm a wood hater. Karl you make some interesting positive points in favor of the Genesis. I recently had an Elantra rental for a month. When they first handed me the keys, I was distraught. After a month, its looks hadn't grown on me and I would never buy it, but I can certainly understand why other people would. I guess all brands grow up - if we can pay $120 for a Timex, why not $43,000 for a Hyundai?

My only beef with the car is that it looks exactly like a G35, albeit a stretched out version. The interior is a direct copy of the Infiniti M down to the chrome rings on the four spoke steering wheel. Otherwise, these is no other "luxury" car under $50k that I would consider over the Genesis except the CTS- which has more personality and a better interior. The Genesis, from what I read and Karl's first drive impression, is better than the A6, E class, 5 series, Infiniti M and Lexus GS. The interiors of the E and 5 are jokes while the A6 exhibits the same old Audi interface while the M and GS have boring exterior designs with weird proportions and details. With the money you'd save by opting for the Genesis, I suggest getting a gas card to fill the V8s appetite for premium.

The styling of the car is the biggest drawback but the fact that people buy the GS and M show that styling isnt a priority for people shopping for large luxury sedans with powerful engines. I think this car looks better than GS and M as well. In terms of styling I would say its a toss up vs the new MKS or even A6. It doesn't look better than a 5, CTS or STS.

Sounds like it's not exactly the new '89 LS400, in that it isn't ground breaking. The LS400 was claimed to be as good as an S-class or 7-series for half the price. This is, as Karl says, perhaps the most/best car you can get for $40K, but certainly no S550, 750i, or LS460. A good value for sure, but I don't see it stealing any German sales. At any rate, I don't think value-oriented buyers really need or want RWD or V8.
 
And of course I like that it's RWD, but there are a some good, plenty powerful FWD competitors in the same price range with more impressive nameplates. The TL and ES330 come to mind. I could probably live with FWD if it got me a luxury badge for the same money. Or if luxury badges don't matter, there's the new Maxima or Chrysler 300C, Pontiac G8. Or, I know I may get ridiculed for saying this, but I kinda dig the Lucerne Super (and I'm not old). There's just so much competition in this price range, and I don't think Hyundai is ready yet to break $40K any more than VW was ready to break $70K with the Phaeton.

The problem with the Genesis' styling is that, objectively, all of its comeptitors are fairly similar, but luxury marques have strong styling cues that are instantly recognizeable. Any Mercedes looks like a Mercedes. Same with BMW (for better or worse). Lexus has a strong styling identity these days - I really really like the LS460, although they started out fairly anonymously. Infiniti and Nissan are also good in this regard. Ford is getting there. The only thing that clearly identifies a Honda, Toyota, Chevy, or Hyundai is the badge. It's hard to pull off such a bold style and funky grille when there's no heritage associated with it. While the Genesis is really no better or worse looking than the M45, when you see an M45 you see an Infiniti. When you see a Genesis, you have to search for the badge to figure out what the hell it is. I appreciate the boldness, but that grille is too much. If I didn't know better, my first guess would have been Daewoo.

ahightower- I'm not old either and the Lucernce Super definitely has some road presence.
 
I think the main advantage of the Genesis over the G8 and 300C are the features it'll offer. Well, actually, the 300C does offer a lot of options too but the G8 is not intended to be a luxury car and one look at the max price and limited option menu will comfirm this. The ES350 looks too sterile and doesn't have a pleasing exterior design. The Genesis at least has a cohesiveness to it's sheetmetal and the look speaks the same language from every angle. I genuinely like it- and not just because it's cheap.

If I had slogged it out for twenty, thirty, forty years at a crap job and decided to buy a luxury sedan to reward myself, this would be on my short list for sure.
 
On the other hand, if I were in sales, or real estate, or financial planning and needed a luxury "image" I don't think this would swing it... maybe in the first year or two of it's release but not for long.
 
I think those are the two largest markets for luxury vehicles, middle aged and up folks, and image~conscious folks, and this works for one of those pretty well.
 
And for those of you who have an opinion of the quality of a car you havn't seen, touched or obviously driven... Hilarious. Like listening to third graders talk about cars. But from a 200x300 internet picture, it does look pretty good. And I would agree Hyundai has come a long way. But so has everyone else.

"The V8 is a sumptuous and smooth engine matching up well to the best from Germany and Japan"
 
Ah yes, there's nothing like a Japanese V8. ??
 
"I think the main advantage of the Genesis over the G8 and 300C are the features it'll offer"
 
At $10K more!
 
I'm real curious to see this car in person. It certainly has the automotive press enamored. I guess it's not your father's Hyundai (or even a 2004 Hyundai).
 
It is still a $43K car (rumors that Hyundai is selling it at a very substantial loss) It may be a good deal, but it's a lot more than I want to spend on a car.

It's $43k loaded with a V8. A loaded V8 300C with alot less options, less power, and poorer gas mileage comes out to nearly $42k. You could probably get the V8 without all the options for around $37, I would guess, which coincidently is around the price of the 300C.
 
The Pontiac G8 is a different animal. It's for entusiasts only. Poor ergonomics, gas mileage, and a complete lack of options make it not everyones cup of tea, but it is priced well.

Is Hyundai selling it at a loss? I know it helps that they own their own steel company, but it's not like Korean labor is that cheap. My concern is what I've noticed with previous-generation Elantras - they age quite quickly, and feel very used after 3-4 years when a Civic might still feel new.
 
The nature of the Genesis' reviews (including this one) is sounding pretty impressive.

I am sure that Merc and BMW are not scared, but Lexus ES, Acura, and Buick probalbly should be. I like it, stolen styling and all, and I hope it sells well for them

bepperb,
I think that's a pretty fair assessment. The biggest concern I would have about this car is the residual. I suspect the depreciation will be tremendous, making it a real bargan used.
 
Based only on pictures I like the looks of both the exterior and the interior. If it's as good Karl and C&D indicate, other luxury car makers should be concerned, and that would be a good thing.
 
Karl, are you obsessed with head rests? I don't recall any other reviewer, about any car, mentioning head rests. Or maybe you just pay attention to more details.

"Karl, are you obsessed with head rests? I don't recall any other reviewer, about any car, mentioning head rests. Or maybe you just pay attention to more details."
  
mnorm1, I'm with Karl on this. Car designers invest so much R&D into the vehicle's performance/engine/drivetrain/suspension/electronics/etc., yet seat comfort seems more like a distant afterthought. I'll forgive a car's shortcomings if the seats can provide exceptional comfort and support over long drives. On the flip side; all the techno-gizmo will do nothing for me if I can't get the right seating position. Even a simple adjustment like seat cushion/thigh extensions can make a world of difference.
  
BMW and Infiniti have figured out the importance of driver comfort and support. Some other makes now have Recaro seats as OEM equipment. It's a pity that the other makes have yet to catch on to this basic concept.....

My wife has had a Kia Sorrento for 4 1/2 years and 50,000+ miles and our ownership experience backs up all of the positive comments on Hyundai/Kia. Hyundai and Kia's products are definitely worthy of consideration and, while not quite the equivalent of Lexus/Mercedes/BMW, are among the best values in their competitive segments.
  
However, there are 3 Kia dealers and 4 Hyundai dealers within 20 miles of where I live (in suburban Los Angeles). By comparison, there are 14 Toyota dealers in the same area. In addition, our local Hyundai and Kia dealers are both in small, aging facilities in marginal neighborhoods.
  
Hyundai/Kia's product has come a long way, but they need to make a serious investment in their dealer network before they will attain their lofty goals.

mrryte,
I completely agree about seat comfort. I've seen lots of reviews that mention seats being comfortable, or uncomfortable. I just don't recall any review that mentioned the head rests specifically; but in the last month or so Karl has in at least 2 reviews - the G8 with the fixed head rest in the back, and this one. I don't object, I just thought it unusual.

The Lexus Genesis ooppss..... Hyundai Genesis looks promising. Their cars are getting better and I won't be surpirse to see them getting better market share from the rest.

Wow, impressive review....well done Hyundai!
 
I wonder why they didn't do what Toyota, Honda and Nissan did and create a separate brand name for the Genesis (A la Lexus et al). (Maybe they want to strengthen the image of the Hyundai brand name slowly over time?). While I'm sure that it'll find it's 50,000 owners with ease, there's still a kind of stigma to the Hyundai name that will put many off. To be honest, the name puts me off....I'm so shallow.
 
Oh and I hate the grill.

Here's why this sucker is DOA, no matter how good it is:
 
- Brand snobishness: Hyundai is still thought of (and advertised by its own dealers) as a bargain brand
- Dealer network (see above too): The Hyundai dealers are not set up for luxury customer service and experience.
- Even given the above, younger buyers might flock to it if they thought it was cool. However, this thing is rental-car bland. It fades into the woodwork. So it's not going to catch anyone's attention.
 
This is the Phaeton (and to a lesser extent, the Toureg) all over again.

"I wonder why they didn't do what Toyota, Honda and Nissan did and create a separate brand name for the Genesis (A la Lexus et al). "
 
Hyundai said it would be too expensive. Plus we have to remember they have not indicated they plan to do other luxury vehicles. The same way Nissan, Chevy and others have a flagship for their brand Hyunda has the Genesis. Saying it wont do well because it doesnt have a luxury brand name doesn't make sense when you consider the success the Corvette has had for years. It will probably take a while for this car to get traction but I hope it sells just to show that you dont need to charge people $60k for a nicely sized luxury sedan with the latest features.
 
This car is priced in line with the 300C and Lucerne while offering a better package and efficiency than both cars and far more hp than the Lucerne.
 
someone said the G8 has poor fuel economy but it gets only 1mpg worse mileage than the Genesis V8.

mirth:
 
The Phaeton was $70k. This car is $40k with options. Its not a Phaeton. IN additon, this car has a far better warranty than the VW offered.
 
Also, your predictions of failure are based on the presumption that this car realistically competes with Lexus GS, 5 series, E class, etc. when that is not the case. Realistically this car will be cross shopped vs other large cars in the $30k-$40k range and will be be superior to those cars. Its competition is the the Avalon, Lucerne, 300C, Charger and ES350. With the exception of the ES those vehicles are not sporting prestigous nameplates.

In person, the car looks a lot like the 2002 Infiniti Q45, particularly from the rear. It's pretty snoozy. Even if it drives like a premium competitor, it doesn't look much spiffier than a top-level Accord or even Hyundai's own Azera. That, more than anything, is probably its biggest liability.

"I wonder why they didn't do what Toyota, Honda and Nissan did and create a separate brand name for the Genesis (A la Lexus et al)."
 
Hyundai's folks told us the cost of establishing a new brand/dealer network would have added thousands of dollars to the price of each car. Wonder where the Genesis' savings come from? This is a big part of them.
 
"The biggest concern I would have about this car is the residual. I suspect the depreciation will be tremendous, making it a real bargan used."
 
Actually, Hyundai's residuals have been on the rise, and the predicted rate on the Genesis, accordng to ALG (Automotive Lease Guide) suggests this one will do quite well -- 50% after three years, versus 48% for a CTS, 44% for a GS 350 and 47% for a 535i.

"Its competition is the the Avalon, Lucerne, 300C, Charger and ES350. "
 
Right on. I see the Avalon/Buick driver as the most likely to crossover demographic. Nobody is leaving a 7 series or a Lexus GS for this. They're upgrading from a loaded Accord/Camry/Altima or another entry level lux car.

Some brand snobs will never leave their overpriced sedans for a better value. It's their money and their business so I'm not hatin'. However, trying to justify paying for an E350 (or say a 528) versus just about any other competitor is folly. The prevailing reality that many seem to be in agreement with (including Karl) is that in 2008, most cars are good (except the Focus apparently). The difference between a good car and a better car is becoming more difficult to quantify and I think a car like the Genesis can really drive this point home. BMW and MB have sold their brand (as opposed to their cars) so well that people will forgo features and amenities just to get into stripper base models when comparable loaded cars of a "lesser" brand come in at the same $$.

"The prevailing reality that many seem to be in agreement with (including Karl) is that in 2008, most cars are good (except the Focus apparently)."
 
Don't forget the Smart ForTwo!

It is impressive how far they've come but I don't know if I could ever bring myself to buy a Hyundai. We had them in Canada for a lot longer and in far greater numbers then the US did.
 
Basically for 20 years they sold crap.
 
That's hard to forget. The name carries the same reputation here as Yugo does in the states. I knew lots of people that owned Hyundais in the past, I don't know anyone who owns one now.
 
I can see they are better now (although I would still like to here from someone who has been happy for 10 to 15 years) but I don't think I will ever spend premium money on one.

Ahightower -- "At any rate, I don't think value-oriented buyers really need or want RWD or V8."
 
Were you blind to how many Chrysler 300Cs people bought up when they hit showrooms?
 
Ddastardly -- "I wonder why they didn't do what Toyota, Honda and Nissan did and create a separate brand name for the Genesis (A la Lexus et al)."
 
Probably because the Genesis isn't a rebadged something-or-other. Both the premium makes and the "regular" makes of those companies you mention share cars between them. Then people always say "Oh, the ES is just a rebadged Camry" etc.
 
With the Genesis, it's truly a flagship car for the company.
 
Firstwagon -- "Basically for 20 years they sold crap. That's hard to forget."
 
Ford and GM did the same thing, and they're starting on the up-swing as well.
 
Bepperb -- "I see the Avalon/Buick driver as the most likely to crossover demographic. Nobody is leaving a 7 series or a Lexus GS for this. They're upgrading from a loaded Accord/Camry/Altima or another entry level lux car."
 
Actually, I believe the competition will come from Nissan Maxima, Infiniti G35/M35/45, and Toyota Avalon (as someone mentioned above). They would be comparing between luxury items and quality feel more than performance.
 
This might be the car that replaces the Lincoln Town Car for mature drivers. (That's both a bad sign for Lincoln MKS and younger demographic Hyundai shoppers.)

This is of particular interest to me since I do intend to buy one once they start selling used. Since I already have a sports car, I'm not infatuated with performance, though a certain degree of athleticism is warranted. The V6 sounds like a fantastic deal and with 18/27mpg, I wouldn't feel bad driving it.
 
As for the styling, I'd call it "stately". If you forget about BMW and Mercedes and just look at the Genesis on it's own, it's a quiet, unabrasive design with handsome features.
 
As someone stated above, these will be screaming deals on the used market.

Karl,
I did note your comment about residuals in the original post, but, here in the Dallas area I see used Hyundai's at prices well under comparable competitors. In addition the Genisis is something of a leap for Hyundai, that, in my view would make it more of a depreciation risk than its competition.
 
Based only on pictures I like the looks; based on reviews (yours and others), my test drives of Sonatas, and my son's experience with the Accent, I have a bias to like this car. But then I like the G8 too.

Despite of all glowing reviews - my preidction is that it will be failure. Buick also makes affordable "luxury" cars and it is more established marque and is on brink of shutting down. Why in the the world someone wants to spend so much money on Huiday? Design is horrible and it is not a Toyota/Honda so justify ugly exterior and questionable interior design.
 
BTW same thing was said about Sonata and new Sonata was a failure.

Savetheland -- There were more Sonatas sold than Ford Fusions in 2007. I guess that makes the Fusion the bigger failure.
 
Sales will only increase once people sit in the revised interior after this year.
 
Hyundai will pop a lot of eyeballs, and indeed they already have, of future car shoppers.

savetheland,
I reckon you must have skipped this part:
"Its growth rate since 1998 has averaged 19 percent each year, and for 2008 Hyundai is the seventh best-selling brand in the U.S. "
 
According to the Wall Street Journal Hyundai car sales increased over 26% from May 07 to May 08, Sonatas account for 25% of their car sales. If that is a failure, how do you define success?

I still say the dealer network is what will kill this car - at $30-40K this is a luxury car, but the dealers are economy dealers. I say most people spending almost 40 large for a car are going to want a total luxury experience, not just a decent car.

"50% after three years, versus 48% for a CTS, 44% for a GS 350 and 47% for a 535i."
 
Wow, so much for all the arguments we have read about how people wont buy anything that isnt Japanese and German because of "poor resale" value. Damn those pesky facts.
 
"BTW same thing was said about Sonata and new Sonata was a failure."
 
I dont think the Sonata is a failure. They sell about 12k-14k units a month. Not exceptional and not representative of how competitive the car is relative to the leaders but not a failure at all. I'm sure Hyundai had higher hopes but they are running into the same issues GM and Ford are having in terms of overcoming the Toyota/Honda worship that exists amongst many consumers.
 
"According to the Wall Street Journal Hyundai car sales increased over 26% from May 07 to May 08, Sonatas account for 25% of their car sales.:"
 
Hyundai's sales were up 6% last month and they set a May record. They sold over 13k Sonatas. Again, this is just OK considering the sales of its competitors. Even the Malibu and Fusion are well ahead of that mark. Hopefully the 2009 will gain some ground.
 
"Basically for 20 years they sold crap.
  
That's hard to forget. The name carries the same reputation here as Yugo does in the states. I knew lots of people that owned Hyundais in the past, I don't know anyone who owns one now.
  
I can see they are better now (although I would still like to here from someone who has been happy for 10 to 15 years) but I don't think I will ever spend premium money on one."
 
Who cares what they did 20+ years ago? You reward those who are making the best product for your dollar TODAY. Toyota is currently going through record recalls and having numerous quality issues and yet people feel it makes more sense to buy a Toyota based on their quality superiority 10 or 20 years back. Hyundai is a company offering consumers great bang for the buck and a nice warranty. That is what I call being hungry for consumers. Toyota and Honda are offering dull designs, cheapening their interiors and premium pricing. I checked out the Highlander and Veracruz at the auto show and the Hyundai has the superior interior from a materials perspective. People need to examine the product instead of the badge on the grille. I am not crazy about Hyundai designs but if I was going to buy an Asian car (other than Mazda) design wouldnt be a major factor anyway. I can't think of one good reason to buy an Accord/Camry over a Sonata or an Avalon/RL/TL over the Genesis.

mirth,
40 large doesn't buy you much any more. It barely gets you into the large luxury car segment these days. It'smore than a standard brand large car, but less than a large luxury brand car.

I would like to note a kind of unfair measurement of the depreciation. That is percentage. So, when we say that BMW retains 50% value in 3 years, we mean that if we it was 70K new, we lost 35K.
  
Now, Genesis is 40K new, and say it will retain "only" 40%. That means we lost 60%*40K = 24K.
  
Now, if we don't talk about badges, in this case we loose more money on BMW (35K) vs. Genesis (24K).
  
That is why I think the % measurement of the depreciation gives us kind of the wrong idea.

"Who cares what they did 20+ years ago?"
 
Don't you judge a product on past performance? How can you judge it on future performance?
 
You are taking a gamble when you buy any car so you need something to measure it againest.
 
If their products were lousy 20 years, still lousy 15 years, still lousy 10 years ago, just slightly better 5 years... wouldn't you have a little doubt when it came to spending that much money?
 
There are lots of car companies out there that have proven they can make good cars. Hyundai proved they could make bad ones.
 
Maybe this is a good one but they have to prove it in the long run before I would risk my money.

"Don't you judge a product on past performance? How can you judge it on future performance?

You are taking a gamble when you buy any car so you need something to measure it againest. "

The "gamble" only exists in the minds of folks who are too naive to understand that Toyota and Honda arent the only people making reliably vehicles. Hyundai's quality is up and their warranty protection is best in the industry. I've been wondering why companies with supposedly inferior reliability (Chrysler, GM, Hyundai, etc.) are offering better warranty protection than the reliability stalwarts. Expanding warranty coverage shows confidence in your products. I hear a lot about how certain Japanese brands make bulletproof products but their warranty coverage certainly doesnt reflect that. Aside from some European products its rare that you vehicle would need to be in the shop for days at a time so I am lost as to what huge risk you would be taking by purchasing a Genesis.

Excellent point Bolot_troy.

It's dollars that matter, not just percentages.

On top of that, I believe residuals are usually calculated based on MSRP, and with Hyundais often selling at steeper discounts, their cars may actually lose a little less in value than it seems based soley on percentages. I'm sure some of them may not have the resale value of other brands, but you have to factor in all costs. Edmunds' "true cost to own" is a step in that direction.

I'm guessing this vehicle will cost at least 10 cents less per mile to operate than the German and Japanese competition that it claims to match. For that you can overlook a few details.

The very fact that it is NOT a luxo brand is what would make me consider this car. The whole image thing is lame and I'm tired of being typecast based on a car's badge.

I worry that so many posters seem to know too much about lease residuals, as if they've been repeatedly leasing to afford them. It's not the case with everyone, but if you can't afford to write a check for the entire purchase price, you probably have bigger financial priorities than a large luxury car. Have the current debt crunch and economic havoc being wrought from Americans getting tapped out not taught us anything about debt?

Besides, used luxury cars are starting to become excellent values as those who couldn't really afford them are dumping them for more affordable rides. With pickup drivers they're dumping lifestyle trucks because of the gas prices. With luxury cars it will be because that bonus was smaller than anticipated and other debts are piling up.

A used Genesis sedan 3 years from now would be a very good choice.

There's more to this than just numbers and brand loyalty. Some people would say German cars for example are overpriced and not worth it and would easily spring for this.

Yes, some people would pay extra for an "image" car just for the brand, but many times it's not just about the brand. Does the Genesis have the feel that it's carved out of a slab of granite like a Mercedes? Does it have the unparalleled driving dynamics and fun factor of a BMW? Some people would pay the premium, if not more, to have those characteristics in a car, not just for the luxury image. A lot of people will always see Hyundai as a bargain brand because of its price. Even the Genesis helps uphold this image - it is a bargain luxury car isn't it?

All I know is that Hyundai was a joke in the past; but I am happy that they are pulling themselves out of a hole by offering better and more luxurious options. However, it will take at least a few years to prove to people (including me) that they aren't the joke they used to be. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm still wary of the quality. Again, numbers mean something, but aren't the whole picture. Will the car shake like a rattlesnake over uneven roads? Will it continue being a fun drive after day to day driving like a sporty BMW would, or would it become boring? Only time can answer such questions.

Seeing it in person, the Genesis impressed me. I helped my mother purchase a certified used Elentra, which was her favorite. I didn't feel right about asking for a test drive on the Genesis, as I would not consider a car that large, but I did test drive the Accent SE with short-throw shifter. Fun! Most Accent colors, however, I find distasteful and girly. Pale blue, pale yellow, pale green - is that how they roll in South Korea?