I always thought they'd be the most susceptible. The real estate market was a big factor in your Ford GT purchase, right? People who would normally buy Accords buy 3-series when they're confident that they'll be getting a raise or big bonus, or they've made some extra cash in the stock market. This isn't the idle rich we're talking about...

I notice that the best Luxury car makers like BMW and Infiniti (best in terms of image, driving fun, perceived design etc) are off very slightly. Those luxury car makers that are either not real luxury (Saab), have no design or strategic direction (Acura) or just plain boring (Lexus) are all having a harder time.

How is Audi doing?

..."This isn't the idle rich we're talking about."

Exactly, Carlisimo. The luxury market volume has been kept artificially high for about 15 years with customers who really are "aspirationally affluent" -- i.e. upper middle class, but still middle class. These are people who live well, but are not insulated forever. Several years ago, a downturn would put them into Buicks, Olds, and Mercury instead of Cadillac and Lincoln. Now they'll probably shop Honda and Toyota brands.

What about the ultra-luxury brands, such as Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.? How are they holding up?

Seem like the middle class is shifting priorities. 35-45k for an IS, TL or C class sounds like a bundle when you can snatch up a Passat, Accord or Camry for 10-15k less.

guy1974, BMW and Infiniti being off less than the others has NOTHING, let me repeat, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with they being more "fun to drive" than others.

Reasons:

1. Lexus has an aging lineup, having virtually no new products for 2008 MY isn't going to help the sales. Beginning of the year Lexus had already announced that they were expecting a slow year. Combine that with the bad economy and high gas prices, the situation got even worse than Lexus had expected. Not to mention that Lexus' best selling model is a SUV (or crossover, whatever...), the RX, it is also the oldest model currently in Lexus' lineup. Helps are on the way though, IS coupe/HT 'vert is coming late '08 or early '09, next gen RX is coming in '09 and a dedicated hybrid will go on sale either late '09 or early '10. The future still looks good for Toyota's luxury brand.

2. Infiniti's best selling model is the G35/37, the bad economy and high gas price has little effects on small/midsize sedans.

3. BMW had several exciting new model debut this year: the 1-series and the X6, so doing well on sales is expected. Also, it is in a similar situation as the Infiniti because its best seller is the 3-series, by a wide margin, a small/midsize sedan with decent fuel mileage.

4. Acura is currently going through a model recycle so let's wait and see on how the new TL will be received by the buying population. If the TL is a hit then Acura is on the right path, if not then it could very well shatter Acura's "dream" to become a real luxury brand.

Last but not least, let's not forget that us petroheads made up of a very very small percentage within the overall population. So to think that the "fun to drive" factor is important when talking about automobile sales is just plain unrealistic in my opinion.

Agree, it's the upper-middle who have returned to their senses, not the truly wealthy.

Meanwhile "normal" cars are so good and packed with luxury features. They know that luxury badges offer very little besides snob appeal, so when it's time to save more and spend less and those crazy lease rates go away, they know they can still get everything they want in a Camry. It was nice to drive a Bimmer while it lasted, but it's not worth breaking the bank now that gas, food, and tuition are up.

I would speculate that Lexus has always appealed to the "sensible" luxury buyer. And those sensible folks are the first to admit that "luxury" cars are not a necessity, so they'll be the first to retreat to more common marques when their budgets get squeezed.

Lets also look at the fact that Infiniti sells half of what lexus, cadillac, and others sell.

jsmiles,

If Lexus sells 400k cars a year and Infiniti only moves 200k then a 10k drop in car sales would be a harbinger of really bad things at Infiniti. Your sells half comment really doesn't make sense in light of the sales number. Infiniti's 3% drop indicates their product line is pulling in customers. Lexus 15% drop is a startling number of cars.

And BMW intro'd a few small volume boutique cars for 08. The 1 series has moved about 8k units and the Xg is equally small. New 3 series M cars are contributing too. While that's helping BMW, their Mini line is really delivering the goods with sales up 30%+.

Carlisimo and tysalpha, agreed about the 3-series. In fact, that is the whole reason why it was launched: to appeal to upper middle class people who could otherwise not afford the 5-series and higher models. Mercedes later followed suit with the 190 series (now the C-Class), and now all luxury manufacturers have a compact model.

But with the prices of the 3-series and competitors these days, I guess only the upper of theupper middle class can afford them....

Karl, I read an article on either Yahoo! or MSN that talked about how the rich (yeah, the really wealthy) are cutting back on spending. It couldn't give good reasons for this trend but it said, for example, that rich people are cutting back on luxury items like yatchs and that extra Mercedes. So, yeah, the wealthy, while not necessarily poorer, are spending less.

These are vehicles mostly owned by "middle-class millionaires," if in fact they are even millionaires at all. So I think the downturn in sales do not reflect what's going on with the "truly wealthy."

Those folks just keep on going about their business pretty much unscathed by the recession.

"So, we've lost the Lincoln Mark LT and overall sales of large, premium SUVs to buyers that don't really need them.

Hmmm...let's hear it for economic downturns!"

Would you say that about a fuel guzzling sports car going extinct?

Yeesh, SUV lovers are sensitive!

Everyone's car gets ragged on for one reason or another... it's all part of the fun and games.

I think a lot of the traffic reduction is that upper middle classers aren't signing the dotted line (whether they lease or buy) for the new ES350s, C-Classes, and 3-Series models they snapped up in the 90s and early 2000s.

They're retreating back into Accord, Camry, and Altima, all of which are doing quite well.

I'm personally surprised that Infiniti isn't down more; Infiniti's really offering some compelling incentives on their products, including the G35 volume seller. Owner Loyalty alone is anywhere from $2000-$3000 additional in rebates.

"Would you say that about a fuel guzzling sports car going extinct?"

No, because if EVERY 2008 sports car disappeared tomorrow the effect on overall oil usage would be impossible to measure (far too small).

BUT, even if only the SUVs driven by folks who don't really need them disappeared tomorrow we could probably stop importing oil from the Middle East.

Okay, I'm maybe slightly exaggerating. But you get my point.

It seems like every high performance car around, especially the Audi R8 and Nissan GT-R wundercars, are sold out for months if not years, and they are not cheap rides.
How many more would Audi and Nissan sell assuming they could build all the market demands?

Currently, many luxury car owners are going through period of low-level automotive malaise. Many really don't want to downgrade to a smaller vehicle, but there is a certain inappropriateness in buying a large car right now. Much of this is purely psychological. So for those who don't have to purchase a new car right now, are holding off. They have the luxury of deciding to make no purchase at all for now. Go figure.

But what this does mean is that there is a huge demand for luxury cars that is building up. Because all people will have to bite the bullet and buy a new car at some point. The best designed, feature rich cars will win, and those that aren't will just become an outdated nameplate. My bet is on Audi, Cadillac and maybe Mercedes to prosper. But I don't believe Lexus, Acura or Lincoln are properly prepared with an appealing assortment of vehicles for the next wave of consumer demand. That's just my take.

"So, we've lost the Lincoln Mark LT and overall sales of large, premium SUVs to buyers that don't really need them.

Hmmm...let's hear it for economic downturns!"

What is with the obsession with bashing SUV owners and SUVS in general? People dont "need" most of the cars they buy so it's stupid to single out luxury SUVs are the one type of vehicle that represents excess. People dont need S550s, 750s or A8s either. I would be inclined to say people don't need Ford GT's but that doesn't mean I feel like my life is somehow enhanced if people stop buying high powered gas guzzling sports cars. I would argue that a 14mpg luxury SUV that can haul 7 people and luggage is more efficient than a 14mpg sports car or M3 that can't haul squat during a road trip. The same people who hate "wasteful" luxury SUVS think the ever so frugal M3 (14/20) is a great car. Go figure.

A simple review of the facts will show that luxury cars are down this year as well. Every Lexus car is struggling this year and Lexus has actually recorded some increases for the LX570. Cadillac's car sales (except CTS and to a lesser extent STS) aren't doing well either. One reason BMW is doing OK is because they launched the 1 series and it's a cheap and relatively economical "luxury" car.

BTW, the article is acting like the cancelling of the Lincoln Mark LT is a big deal or a recent decision. That vehicle was never a volume seller and it appears Ford hasnt planned to do a revised version based on the new F150 for some time now.

"No, because if EVERY 2008 sports car disappeared tomorrow the effect on overall oil usage would be impossible to measure (far too small)."

THere are cars other than sports cars and SUVs that get poor mileage. No one has a problem with M45s, 550s, M3s, M5s, E550s, etc. even though their city mileage figures are only a smidgen higher than your average large SUV. Should we hope that every V8 powered car in America disappears as well? Of course the next segment to discuss would be heavy crossovers which typically get about 2mpg better mileage than large SUVs. If people only drove what they "needed" there wouldn't be any cars over $25k on the market.

"Everyone's car gets ragged on for one reason or another... it's all part of the fun and games."

Actually, most of the hate is directed towards SUVs by those who claim moral and intellectual superiority based on the fact that they only drive cars. I don't drive an SUV but it's not because I think they represent excess or kill the enivironment. It's only because I like a vehicle that can handle and I can't afford the gas for an SUV.

I just want to know why people lack contempt for inefficient cars, primarily those from Europe if they are so offended by excessive consumption.

"I just want to know why people lack contempt for inefficient cars, primarily those from Europe if they are so offended by excessive consumption."

I have to believe you knewthe answer to this question before asking it.

Its all about image and perception. In my experience, the majority of people that complain about SUVs and their environment destroying tendencies know NOTHING about vehicles, other then a visual size comparison - That SUV is much bigger looking then the M3. They don't know whats under the hood, or any of the other points that affect fuel economy.

As for the Europe factor, I suppose a number of items contribute to this. I'd wager that most people are under the impression all European cars are fuel efficient because of high gas prices over there.

Those of us who read and post on these forums regularly are informed enough to understand that a CUV/SUV may not use much more gas then a full sedan, etc. For the rest of the general population, its all about image and stereotyping.

"Those of us who read and post on these forums regularly are informed enough to understand that a CUV/SUV may not use much more gas then a full sedan, etc. For the rest of the general population, its all about image and stereotyping."

What you're saying makes sense but it if were true then people who know a lot about cars wouldn't be leading the SUV bashing parade. That just leads me to the conclusion than the SUV hating isnt really about logic at all.

1487,

I was thinking the same thing while writing my comment. There are always a few exceptions to the rule, and I'll take this as one.

IL's 2009 Mazda6 V6 averaged 15.6mpg in testing. I think the G8 GT had a higher mpg rating during it's evaluation with a 6L V8, 361 and ~ 450 more lbs of mass. I might as well drive a Tahoe. If I had a family or needed to haul stuff, I'd glady drive a SUV and wouldn't care what anybody had to say about it.

My main grip with SUVs are that you cannot see in front of them and that people who can barely handle a Yaris get in Expeditions and try to play Al Unser Jr in traffic.

As far as fuel efficiency goes, pound for pound, SUVs are just as efficient as cars. Considering most high priced SUVs match their sedan counterparts in power, the difference in mileage is negligible considering they weigh hundreds of pounds more. Case in point, an Escalade achieves 12/19 with 403hp and weighs just under 6000lbs. An E550 4matic gets 13/19 with LESS hp and a much lower weight. Please explain that? You can't. People who are hell bent on condemning SUVs are simply uneducated and out of touch with the realites known as FACTS.

What's more ridiculous, loading up you Tahoe to drive cross country or squeezing duffle bags in a mid-engined exotic with .2 cu ft of cargo space?

I think it's somewhat easy to explain (not having read the linked article, forgive me).

There really are no small-engined and light luxury cars. If it's taboo to buy a walrus of an suv, it's also taboo to buy a 4400 lb. luxury car that is loosely based on a fat accord or camry anyway.

1487, next time you are out driving, see how many expensive, fuel hungry, high performance sports car you see. Very few, if any, of course. So,they really make little difference to overall fuel consumption, pollution etc., so they can be ignored (well, not exactly ignored if you like cars, but you know what I mean!)

Now how many high-end fuel hungry luxury sedans do you see? Probably several, but enough that if this were Europe, they would be seen as a problem in terms of fuel consumption and pollution.

Now, how many large SUVs, and trucks used as personal transporation, do you see? Hordes of them!

That's why the large SUVs and trucks used just for personal transportation are viewed as much worse than the high-end cars. There's simply very many more of them.

I think it's the lack of easy credits to finance the sales. Two major factors affecting entry to mid luxury (< $50K cars):

- Mortgage Equity Withdrawals(like cash out Refi or HELOCs) have dried up considerably.

- Leasing becomes lots more expensive.

JMO

gcn- where do you live?

I my city, it seems that everyone has an S550 o5 750Li. In fact, I even see QuattroPortes a couple of times a week.

"Now, how many large SUVs, and trucks used as personal transporation, do you see? Hordes of them!

That's why the large SUVs and trucks used just for personal transportation are viewed as much worse than the high-end cars. There's simply very many more of them."

SUvs essentially replaced wagons. They have a purpose whether you like it or not. Just because you or I dont drive SUVs doesn't mean that everyone who owns one is kin to the devil or is somehow less intelligent than we believe we are. The average SUV gets 3-4mpg less in the city (where most driving occurs) than the average 6 cylinder sedan. Sorry, but that isn't a drastic difference. You cannot tell me that a person driving a 14mpg truck is pillaging the environment while a person driving a 17mpg Mazda6 V6 is being "responsible".