and then you can feel the gas price costing 30% more when fueling up

Or 10% less then reg where I live.

Great engine, nice car. Suspension is too soft for me but it's still a nice little car. With the tax credit the car's a steal.

Yup, on my way home tonight I saw diesel at $3.99, premium at $3.69, mid-grade at $3.53 and regular at 3.39.

A 60 cent difference off $4 is about 15%. And if the Jetta TDI is averaging 40 mpg (or better) to an equvalent gasoline engine at 30 mpg the diesel has a 33% efficiency advantage.

People can keep trying to dismiss diesel becuase of the price difference, buy the arguement is sounding pretty hollow...

This might be the only car where you've actually gotten (or exceeded) the EPA mileage, Karl. :)

I like the diesel powertrain--I just wish the car it's installed in didn't look like a Corolla.

editor_karl - or your thinking too small again:

my area - regular = 2.75
- diesel = 3.69

difference = 34% higher for diesel.

standard S Jetta = 17340, lets be nice and add wheels since thats the biggest difference.

Standard S Jetta = ~18
Diesel Jetta = ~22000 - 1300 credit. = 20.7

Difference = 2700 dollars.

Regular jetta = 24mpg combined
Diesel jetta = 34 mpg combined.

15,000 miles a year

Regular = 625 gallons X $2.75/G = 1718
Diesel = 441 gallons X $3.69/G = 1627

Diesel Savings = 91 dollars a year.
Pay off period - $2700 / $91/yr = 296 Years.

Lets use Karls numbers

regular - 3.39 = $2118
diesel - 3.99 = $1759

Difference = $358

Pay period - $2700 / $358/yr = 7.5 years.

VW quality = priceless.

There are things that are hollow around here. I wont mention who/what, then i'll get banned.

I love math too. But its a start, and an improvement over 99% of cars out there. We can always just keep making excuses as to why we don't need to be more fuel/energy efficient. Prius prices have gotten ridiculous, so having an option out there that starts at $22k and gets real world mileage in the high 30s, low 40s sounds good to me.

pat1usmc - at the end of the day, isn't it about the numbers? Its not like the jetta has an emtional value, its as bland as just about any 4 door sedan on the market.

Plus, I used MSRP prices, my read on the market is that alot of times the TDI, also gets a 'market adjustment' that raises the price. Where as the base model will go for invoice.

Personally, I agree with Karl on this one. It is not about the cost of diesel versus gasoline. Rather, it is about reducing our consumption of oil and becoming more energy independent. I just wish we had more natural gas alternatives in vehicles and service station infrastructure so we could optimize our significant gas reserves. Plus, it is a very big security issue. Were we not so dependent on middle east oil, we could have a more secure future for ourselves and our children.

opfreakx,

If you make that same argument between the Prius and Corolla. The pay off is more than 13 years so in theory this isn't so bad right. The difference between the Camry and hybrid Camry is even worse. I guess it depends on how much you value the environment and natural resources. Given you won't have to replace any batteries and the long lived nature of diesel engines, the Jetta doesn't look so bad in comparison to other fuel saving alternatives.

karjunkie - in cased you missed it, diesel is made from oil. The reason cars go futher on it, is because it contains more energy, the reason it contains more energy is because its denser.

Because its denser you get fewer gallons of diesel per barrel of oil, then you would of gasoline.

So I fail to see any co-relation diesel has to energy indepedance.

I have to agree with opfreak on the math, but with others that this is a step in the right direction that will have interest beyond them [the numbers].

I might be more inclined to pay a small premium in a SUV/CUV/large vehicle (Tiguan) where I would want a torquey low-revving engine. The Jetta, to me, is supposed to be sporty, and I would think the 2.0t would be much better there.

And I imagine all the math we do is worthless, as dealers are probably adding markups to the point where it obviously won't be a good value proposition.

Now you're not looking at the entire picture. Despite the fact that there is less diesel produced per barrel of oil. The refining process for gasoline uses alot of energy in it's own right. Biodiesel is far better than ethanol as a biofuel in my opinion as well.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. As long as we're using oil or anything that needs to be imported from somewhere else, energy independence is a moot point.

One big problem with opfreakx math is the TDI mpg number. 34? Try 40-44 (and that's without any creative driving techniques -- do that and you'll approach 50 plus).

And anyone with a minimum of negotiating skill can get one for MSRP (plus the tax benefit). This car is a great value on everything from interior quality and comfort to overall dynamics to, most importantly, fuel mileage.

I agree the exterior styling is too Corolla-esque, but that's the worst I can say about it so it's still an excellent vehicle.

Even with an average of 41 mpg, it'd still take approximately 5.5 years to pay off given fuel costs in my area, but that's still alot better than say a Camry vs. a Camry hybrid. Where's our diesel electric hybrid anyway? Anybody working on that? I'd pay extra for that combo.

Karl, Once again, I use numbers that can be repeated, tested, and standarized.

Its call the EPA.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25263

I could just go to the tdi forums, and use there wacko tdi numbers, according to them tdi's get about 1000 mpg, and anyone getting less then that is obivously lieing.

Can't wait for the TDI to return on the Golf/Rabbit.

From what I've read from multiple sources, the TDI's mid-40's mpg numbers have been repeated, even during test drives where the car has been pushed. Those real world numbers mean more to me than EPA, but obviously there has to be some sort of standard. My Legacy GT says 19/25 but I consistently manage 25-26 during my commute and 31 hwy.

The problem with the EPA test is that it is basically falsifying diesel MPG numbers. They will revise the test to more accurately reflect the real world use, just as the EPA revised the test to more acurately reflect petrol MPG numbers.

I am all for diesel- the engines are more robust, will last longer than petrol, easy options to run alternative fuels

why are diesel prices higher? diesel is unrefined unleaded gas- it should be cheaper- is this tied to blatant price gouging or home heating fuels, or what?

diesel is more expensive for 2 reasons:

less refining capacity in USA.

Uses MORE oil then gasoline.

-------------------------------------------------

for any & all math based on fuel economy, I use Fueleconomy.gov. IMHO the only way of comparing different car companies MPG.

"IMHO the only way of comparing different car companies MPG."

Too bad. You're drawing inaccurate results (REAPEATED, TESTED and STANDARDIZE results, true, but inaccurate).

Diesel is more expensive because it competes with heating oil.

If that's the only way you compare fuel economy, I have some beach front property in Galveston to sell you. :)

Not comparing apples to apples. The Base Jetta does not have the same equipment as the Jetta TDI.

The Jetta SE - with a less powerful engine than the TDI - costs 20k.

The TDI is 22k. Subtract the $1300 tax credit (which is like a $4000-5000 tax write-off) and the TDI is a better deal out of the gun.

Comparing the base Jetta to the TDI is silly.

How has reliability been for the current generation of Golfs and Jettas? I haven't heard of them being as disastrously bad as the previous models.

Same hear. In fact, I think claiming VW/Audi has quality issues is like saying the Mercedes ML is a horrible POS. Accurate when it first came out -- in 1998 -- but hasn't been true for years.

I know bad impressions are often hard to let go, especially if you already don't like a car company and enjoy using negative reports to bash them, but I've never had any real-world experiences to back up the "bad quality" claims of VW/Audi -- and I've driven several under LONG-TERM conditions over the past decade.

BTW, some might be quick to claim a "quality stigma" for other carmakers that isn't accurate. Unfortunately, for at least some of those car companies our long-term experience HASN'T suggested a sufficient positive shift in quality...

Lowest Dallas, TX area fuel prices:
Regular gasoline $2.399/gallon
Low Sulfur Diesel $3.199/gallon

33% efficiency advantage offset by 33% higher fuel cost. Only makes economic sense if the Jetta TDI can survive on a (illegal) diet of red dye farm diesel.

San Diego Gas Prices - http://sandiegogasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

Regular: $2.83
Diesel: $2.99

These are lowest reported prices around town. Pretty tough to look at that and not see value in a diesel here.

Personally, the regular v. diesel thing doesn't work for me as there isn't a regular burning car I'd buy. Thus the lowest premium listed is more than diesel.

"BTW, some might be quick to claim a "quality stigma" for other carmakers that isn't accurate. Unfortunately, for at least some of those car companies our long-term experience HASN'T suggested a sufficient positive shift in quality..."

Really? Which ones? I am genuinely curious.

sabastian - if its domestic it sucks. If its an import its made by gods.

"How has reliability been for the current generation of Golfs and Jettas? I haven't heard of them being as disastrously bad as the previous models."

I think the VW reliability issues have been blown out of proportion in recent years. VW is one of the largest automobile companies in the world, even if its NA presence is small. Vehicles don't become that popular (ie Golf/Golf variations = one of, if not the best selling car in the world) if they are as horribly unreliable as people say in these blogs.

Doug, if you really are an engineer how in the world can you put a theory ahead of real world analysis of gathered data? Or are you a train engineer?

Care to listen to my theory that Toyota cars must not be that bland because they're quickly becoming the world's largest automaker?

I think if you take a look at consumer reports, VW ranks mid pack, maybe a bit lower. It's no Honda but it's no Suzuki either. (best and worst last year) I'd consider them (and I'm a CR subscriber) but the value just isn't there for me (in the disel Jetta or the Passat, their suv's are wayyy overpriced)

"Care to listen to my theory that Toyota cars must not be that bland because they're quickly becoming the world's largest automaker?"

bepperb:

Reliability is an issue for everyone; however, the 'bland-ness' of a vehicle is not necessarily a negative blow against it. Certainly, to a car enthusiast reading on an enthusiast forum, being bland is a nail in the coffin. Real life, however, does not agree - there are many, many people out there who do not want sporty, do not find the Corolla bland, do not care if its bland as long as it turns on, etc.

My comment is also based on my own experiences with two 2004 VW Golf TDIs, which have both been problem free. And yes, I know I can't comment for all owners. That being said, imo a mid-pack ranking in CR does not qualify as "disastrously bad" imo.

And no, I do not lie about my occupation in my handle.

oh also: no, I'm not a train 'engineer' lol.

BTW, quick update on gas prices. On my way in an hour ago I saw:

Regular: $3.17
Mid-grade: $3.23
Premium: $3.29
Diesel: $3.27

That's a 3% different between regular and diesel(and obviously premium was actually slightly more than diesel).

Once again, the "diesel costs more" argument is becoming silly.

Diesel $3.13
Regular Unleaded $2.64

Yes, the pricing is silly.

What is really silly is the export of diesel fuel to Europe and importation of gasoline from Europe. It is affecting our diesel prices.

opfreak - the EPA testing method was accurate for diesel mpg BEFORE it was revised. The current test results are much lower than real world mpg. Expect to see revisions from EPA.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg

VW and Chevy reliability looks to be about the same these days, if you choose to believe CR and its methods.

This post is a couple of months later than most of the posts. Corner store fuel prices:

RUG $2.11

PUG $2.31

D2 $ 2.13

With 03 VW 2.0/1.8T which struggle to get 29 mpg and a normal TDI 50 mpg (48-52 range), the math per mile driven is easy to compare. Apples to oranges comparison is Civic gets 38 mpg (38-42 range)

Break in (herky jerky driving style trying to accomplish multiple things) mpg has averaged 42.33 for a 2009 VW Jetta TDI with DSG. I sense the mpg will get better with time. (10,000 miles to 50,000 miles) So far we are loving every thing and every minute of driving this car. Zero defects so far.

We say this in view of driving 03 Jetta TDI 114,000 miles and Honda Civic 80,000 miles.