Edmunds CarPool

Good one Karl. Unfortunately you will still, despite disclaimers, be accused of being a Toyota fanatic.

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but Denso is not the one with the sticky pedal, it's CTS, no?
Denso is in Japan, and AFAIK all Japanese parts suppliers have been in the clear in this.

PS: Your linked article to the unintended acceleration test by Edmunds used a Camry SE. The one car many here have asked you folks to try out as it apparently is a sporty and fun to drive Camry! Ironic it ended up being used for something completely unrelated.

People are idiots. They are easily swayed by the media's embellishment of the truth, by heresay and by the desire to tar and feather someone. These are unfortunate but true facts, and they apply to Toyota, to the GM collapse last year, and to most facets of every day life.

newsflash Karl:

Pretty much everyone online is tripping over themselevs to defend Toyota and "clear up" things for us stupid readers. I am laughing at all this righteous indignation and talk of "objectivity" and fairness from the automotive media. Since when did you all care about such things? Your business is all about opinions- many of which can't be supported by any objective evidence. This entire Toyota fiasco is largely dependent on people expressing opinions and making claims that can't be proven or disproven. It's no different from what the auto media does and has been doing for years. And as Toyota can attest, unfounded accusations can damage a reputation and affect sales. I would say people who think their Toyota is now unsafe based on media hype are no more stupid than people who believe CR is objective or believe C&D when they say the Accord has been one of the 10 best cars sold in America for 27 years in a row. Its always amusing one one branch of the media tries to take another to task for lack of objectivity or sensationalism.

"Thank you!!! It is about time that someone puts some critical thinking skills to work. It appears to me that all this drama is caused by a number of people looking to get rich off Toyota..."

How the hell is any Toyota owner going to "get rich" off Toyota by claiming their car experienced SUA? Unless you can prove an injury was related to a mechanical defect you arent getting any money out of an automaker. That's just common sense. All the Toyota lovers who are attacking that Prius driver in CA are claiming he wants to "get rich" but no one has explained what grounds he has for a lawsuit and thus how he plans to get rich from his claim.

"Despite varying degrees of circumstantial (and overly promoted) evidence, no person or entity has proven Toyota guilty of negligent or criminal activity in any way"

Toyota admitted to addressing the problem in Europe, but denying it's existence in the US. There's your proof of negligence.

Just to back up my statement:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/business/global/25toyota.html

Yoshimi Inaba, Toyota's COO for North America:
"Under questioning, Mr. Inaba, Toyota’s highest-ranking executive in the United States, acknowledged that Toyota was aware of issues with sticking pedals in Europe for a year before accidents in the United States. "

The "accidents in the United States." didn't magically start in October. They've been ongoing for years. While Toyota admitted to it in Europe, they denied it in the US.

There's also good reason people are still concerned with the possibility of a failure in electronics. Toyota is still concerned:
"James E. Lentz III, the president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., told the House Energy and Commerce Committee that the prescribed repairs might “not totally” solve the problem. In response to a question, Mr. Lentz said that Toyota was still examining the sudden acceleration problem, including the possibility that the electronics system might be at fault."

Yea, the article is full of dodging and PR speak too, where they stress how safe their vehicles are. The fact that they're willing to admit to what they are admitting to, should be great cause for concern. The fact that they manipulated the NTSA for as long as they did is terrifying!

Are their a zillion nutjobs (including ABC), trying to wring this for all it's worth? Yes, and they piss me off. Is Toyota guilty of hiding the truth? Yes. Are they hiding more? Probably.

Karl, there are those that want to take advantage of fame and fortune but when their little tricks get discover they look worst than they appear.

You have those in the other side that they will cheer the failures and desire vengeance of what happen to their "favorite team or brand"

You will fave the fools that follow the traveling circus of the media and get on the wagon of fame and fortune.

I'm not a Toyota lover but I hate when others jump on conclusions so fast when they are not even the experts in the field. They are repeaters!

Fact, all businesses cut corners in order to save money. You are in a business to make money & save time. If you feel like you never "cut corners in your life", look yourself in the mirror my friend!

The sticking pedal you reference is the CTS (not Denso, BTW -- thanks vic) assembly I mentioned above. This causes the pedal to possibly be slow to return to the idle position, but not stick wide open because the return pressure increases with throttle position, so the pedal can be slow to return at higher position but not stick at WOT. That's why no specific deaths/injuries have been tied to it as far as I know (unlike the floor-mat issue, which can jam the throtle into a wide-open position).

Sorry, not buying that a very occasionally (it's only happened in tiny percentage of cars) sticky throttle pedal at a moderate (not wide open) position is causing people to crash into trees, walls, other cars, etc. -- especially when, as we just proved ourselves, all of these cars can be stopped at FULL THROTTLE if you just apply the brakes properly.

While there may exist a problem with Toyota's, and Toyota may indeed be hiding such safety factors, I still think that a lot of this is vindictive, greedy people looking to make a fast buck...

I doubt I would ever buy a Toyota (I think their cars are dull and uninspiring). But not because of the issues they are having now. In fact, I drive a dull and uninspiring car right now. So if I needed a new one NOW and the deal was right, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Toyota right now today.

Steve Wozniak, cofounder of Apple Computer, has owned several Toyota Priuses, including currently a 2010.

In this news article, http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10445564-64.html, Wozniak, using the cruise control can repeatedly get the Prius to accellerate. Fortunately, the brakes take it out of cruise control.

It appears to me that Toyota was stonewalling the NHTSA before the recalls were issued. What I can't figure out is why there was only one computer system in the USA that is capable of reading the Toyota "black boxes". Having more in the US would help solve the many problems reported.

However, lawyers, and others smell blood in the water.

The Wozniak case may be royally frustrating, but it's hardly a life or death situation.

I agree about the black box issue. Toyota's excessive secretiveness makes me more suspicious.

There is some problem and the fact that some people don't know how to stop their cars when the problem occurs is a sideshow. It may be reasonable to say no one should end up in a life threatening accident due to this problem but the fact that it cant be repeated on demand doesn't prove there isnt a problem. If the problem could be easily duplicated than no one would've brought these cars in the first place. The whole point is that people have experienced the issue at various times without understanding what led to the surge in acceleration. Lack of driving skills or one CA Prius owner who tells a lie doesn't mean Toyota is now innocent. I've noticed much of the recent debate has shifted to whether or not owners handled the acceleration properly as opposed to focusing on why Toyota didnt own up to this earlier.

I agree with brn:

Karl the number of people Toyota employs has nothing to do with whether or not the District Attorney files suit. On the other hand, I agree that he lacks the expertise or information to have filed suit.

The fact that NHTSA had to go to Japan and threaten Toyota to issue a recall should weigh heavily for any person defending Toyota.

I agree many of the owners of the cars seem to lack the basic skills to drive a car.

So I am torn.

However, I don't feel one bit sorry for owners who feel they are losing re-sale value or for dealerships claiming the government is trying to help GM in this case. Those people seem to forget, along with the editors here, including you Karl, that the Japanese government has for years helped the Japanese auto industry, including Toyota.

If GM had an issue like this, I believe the editors here would be screaming for blood from GM.

I know that as any product is mass produced, the inevitable bug will appear. So far, I haven't really seen any sign of negligence (apart from Brn's article, thank you btw). I'm also not convinced that Toyota's quality control is so good that their products are free of defects.

If anyone wants to question my objectivity, I'm only happy to comply.
1. I don't like electronic throttling.
2. I'm nervous when a company produces a complex product like a vehicle.
3. I'm nervous when sales of a previously low-volume product skyrocket.
4. I don't care for a design that would place a throttle pedal so far down as to potentially be obstructed by a floor mat. Even a non-OEM one.

Despite all this, while everyone is so quick to take sides, I'd rather remain neutral until someone has provided me some proof.

Nothing to add except great post Karl! Spot on.

Has anyone contacted Mulder and Scully?

Finally, a semblance of logic from the journalistic world.

If only rest of the 'journalists' could learn to use logic....

Look at the positive side of the issue - if you love Toyota you can buy one at deep discount. The value of used Toyota are also going down what is a good thing for car buyers.

On the other hand Ford (and not once) was decimated by Firestone scandal and most cases were caused by mistakes made by drivers, like not wearing seating belts or driving too fast. Now why Toyota has to be spared and Ford or GM punished? Toyota wants to be American company. Welcome to show!

Besides in Japan lives of ordinary citizens take a back seat to corporate profits. In America it is just opposite - human life is value much higher than profits. Would you agree to die for Toyota making more money? Or it is better to sue hell out of them so they behave differently next time.

Great article, especially with #2 about the electronics. That being said, I do have to agree in part with 1487; the real question here is not lack of driving skill or greedy lawyers, but rather why Toyota couldn't come forward earlier with this problem.

@savetheland: I have a lot of friends in Japan and have lived there before, and Japan is no different than America with corporate profits vs. human lives. Just like here in the States, there are corrupt companies, and also like the US, Japan has consumer protection laws. It must be nice to sit back and bash a place and culture you (presumably) have no knowledge or experience of. Next time you want to start bashing something/some place, I ask that you keep it to yourself.

"If GM had an issue like this, I believe the editors here would be screaming for blood from GM."

Exactly. The real issue here is that auto journalist feel they are the only ones entitles to dispense biased and subjective information about the auto industry. They get mad when the mainstream media gets involved. Now if this entire story was about Chrysler (which the auto media hates as a rule) no one would say a peep- including Consumer Reports which went on the record suggesting Chrysler be allowed to dissolve because their cars arent reliable. Since this is Toyota many have gotten offended. While they arent crazy about Toyota's dull vehicles they feel all this questioning of Toyota's honesty and engineering prowess is out of line and they are hell bent on clearing the record.

"Finally, a semblance of logic from the journalistic world.

If only rest of the 'journalists' could learn to use logic...."

MT.com has put out several pro-Toyota blog entries that question the legitamacy of Toyota owner claims. Basically, they are saying there is likely no such thing as SUA and even if there is its up to the owner to handle the situation properly and stop whining.

"Toyota wants to be American company. Welcome to show!"

Exactly. After the US has provided billions in profits for Toyota over the decades they are in no position to whine about unfair treatment. This is what its like to be the big dog, everyone is gunning for you.

Unfair, biased reporting? Sounds like CR and Toyota for the last 20 years!

There are several reasons not to first shop Toyota these days - 1. GM and Ford's build quality is much better than a few years ago; 2. Toyota's quality [as shown by materials, content and recalls], especially in their cheaper models, has declined in the same period; and, 3. Toyota is not and never will be, an American company - their profits and all of the top, policy making jobs are in Japan.

OTOH, Toyota's current incentives are a boon to all car shoppers - silver lining?

PS - Toyota's dealing SoCal's economy a body blow in closing the NUMMI plant.

To jk243: I do not know who is your friend and can I trust his observations. But I certainly trust serious business publication Wall Street Journal. That's what they wrote about Japanese culture in article related to Toyota debacle in USA:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704533204575047370633234414.html

E.g. from this publication:
"After years of denial, the current finance minister, Naoto Kan, who was health minister in 1994, revealed documents showing that the government allowed the companies to continue selling the bad blood so that they would not lose market share to foreign companies selling safe blood products. "

Can you imagine it happening in USA? US would rather happily destroy US based company. Most of Americans in fact demanded destruction of GM and Chrysler no matter what consequences would be for US as manufacturing power. Mind if I remind you that America won the WW II because of manufacturing prowess - US could build complex military hardware cheaper and much faster than Japan.

Well, Karl, whether overblown or not, the fact remains that Toyotas are still having far more "unintended acceleration" incidents than other manufacturers. I'm pretty sure that the incidents are probably few and far between, but there has been enough damage/hype to cause doubt in the typical buyer's mind. As long as Toyotas have more "untintended acceleration" than other cars, you can't really argue that it's all mindless hype.....the onus is on Toyota to show that they're on top of the issue, and so far, they haven't.

Secondly, it seems quite clear that when Toyota was made aware of the problem, for several years, they tried to "hide" or sweep the problem under the carpet.

Yes, some of these lawsuits are ridiculous, but maybe that's what Toyota need to make them realise that their handling of the problem has, for the most part, been pretty bad! And perhaps they're a victim of their own strategy of building cars that are ultra-reliable/durable and not much else......with the image of reliability shaken, they don't have a lot going for them.

@savetheland: Fair enough. But such things have happened with American companies. The most recent incident that comes to mind is Halliburton:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50P5ZE20090126

"Halliburton, once headed by former Vice President Dick Cheney, said it was awaiting final approval from the U.S. Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission to settle claims that KBR violated anti-bribery laws by paying kickbacks to Nigerian officials."

Just to be clear, I'm not defending Toyota; rather, I'm saying it's unfair to characterize a whole country and people for one company's mistake. (Otherwise, we'd be known for fire-catching cars thanks to the old Ford Pinto.)