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Dracut MA United States of America |
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About this: "But diesel's increased mileage still more than makes up for the relatively minor additional fuel cost".
In Massachusetts the difference is not minor at all. I'm looking out the office window now and the gas station across the street sells regular for $3.19 and diesel for $4.09. I wouldn't call that a minor difference.
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"Americans will embrace diesel when gas prices break $5 a gallon. Yes, you'll still get the people saying $5.50 a gallon for diesel is too much of a premium over $5.00 for unleaded but those people also can't figure out the cost of gas per mile in their head."
When gas costs $5 a gallon you're going to be paying $6 to $6.50 a gallon for diesel. Diesel fuel is going to keep costing more than gas, and will probably cost over a $1.50 per gallon more than gas as the new fuel rules start to take effect.
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Chevy,
I see $3.69 a gallon for gas by my house. Diesel is $4.05 at the same station. Unleaded is $3.49. Shrug.
Looks like a ~15% difference to me. A few years ago the difference was closer to 25%. Just like when I was a kid regular was a $1 a gallon and premium $1.20 (20% difference) and diesel ran about 1.40. Now regular and premium are about 5-6% apart. As the prices increase the actual percentage difference decreases. I'd expect about a 10-12% gap between regular and diesel in CA by the time regular hits $5 a gallon. If a diesel gets 20% better fuel economy, it's a big win for diesel buyers.
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texases
- Apr 1, 2008 3:05 pm
(#32 Total: 48)
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Another reason - people aren't stuck in '1978' ideas - they see diesels every day - the slow, smelly trucks and buses they hate to get behind. Of course they're going to be reluctant, there have been no modern diesel cars in any volume on the roads in years.
p.s. - I can't imagine how MB sells a turbo diesel with complex emissions controls for only $1k more - I'm guessing they're eating some of the cost, like Toyota did with the Prius.
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Every person that switches from gas to diesel will raise the demand for diesel and decrease the demand for gas. Diesel is already $4+ per gallon and we haven't seen the new diesel cars yet. Wait until you see the price of diesel when automakers are putting 200k or 300k new diesel cars on the road every year. The diesel truck market is already contracting because of high fuel costs. When all these new diesel cars start hitting the road I wouldn't be shocked if diesel cost $2 a gallon more than gas.
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chevy598
If you you are right about demand being the cause of high diesel prices, why is diesel cheaper then regular in Canada? We have lots of diesel pickup ups too. We also have large number of diesel VWs ( almost 50% of all VW's sold are TDI's).
The heating fuel arguement doesn't work either because we have colder weather then the US and price only rises a little in the winter.
Diesel is cheaper to make the gas and should be cheaper to buy.
If it isn't then you are being ripped off.
I don't know if it's oil companies, commodity traders or some tax the US government snuck in on the trucking industry but you are being hosed.
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opfreak
- Apr 1, 2008 5:49 pm
(#35 Total: 48)
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firstwagon. like I pointed out, just being cheaper to make does not mean its going to be cheaper at the pump.
If the demand for diesel is much greater then the demand for gas, As compared to the supply for gas, and suppy for deisel.. the price of the cheaper to make product will increase so that it does not sell out.
I dont know if anyone follows video games around here, but we have a perfect example.
Take the wii, the cheapest system on the market, yet its constantly selling out, when its allowed to be priced on the open market (ebay) the seller can make nice money. i dont know what they are selling for now... but even last year, selling a 250 dollar wii, on ebay for 350-400 dollars was easy.
But compare that to a ps3, probably the most expensive system to make... It will sell for the asking price, and thats with sony selling the system at a loss.
Its a simple supply vs demand issue. People in america should be forced to take some econ classes to understand these basic concepts
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Ellicott City MD United States of America |
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You can also add Subaru to the list of US diesels that are coming. They just introduced a clean boxer turbo diesel in Europe in the Legacy and Outback, and it's been getting very good reviews.
I know Subaru's Ann Arbor, MI testing facility is putting a new diesel testing lab. The cars should be here around 2010.
Here's Edmunds "First Drive" on it:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124553
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ne1butu
- Apr 1, 2008 6:43 pm
(#37 Total: 48)
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I dunno about the appeal of diesels. First off, diesel is already $4 a gallon, so increasing the demand will only increase the price. Then there's the stigma associated with diesel that we all remember from the early 80s... the stink, soot and the clackety clack. If the diesels in Europe represent the best that's available, then diesel is going to be a tough sell in the states. The stink and the soot have been minimized, but there is still a long way to go before diesels are as smooth and silent as conventional engines.
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I think America will catch on. There just aren't enough options at this time. Believe me, when Honda and Toyota make them, they will sell. Most of us don't really give a damn about being green, we want high mileage.
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"...but there is still a long way to go before diesels are as smooth and silent as conventional engines.".
Ne1butu, it's the very silence of modern engines that gets to me so much. I'd rather have a fairly noisy engine that gives me lots of visceral feedback. That's one reason why the 335i I test-drove yesterday was such a revelation and the best car I've driven yet, but that's another story for another day.
I've heard the sounds of some modern diesels like the Jetta TDi. Honestly, one the car is in motion they're about as quiet as petrol engines.
Chevy98, I very much agree with you about politicians getting on the "high horse" and forever making diesel engine requirements more stringent.
But I like the diesel smell! And I know I'm not alone. Diesel exhaust smells much nicer than petrol exhaust!
And, lastly, is it really true that diesels put out more pollution than their petrol counterparts? I don't think so! Can someone give me some facts? Given how finicky the Europeans are about car emissions, I feel that if diesel engines were that bad they'd be banned in Europe.....
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>>>First off, diesel is already $4 a gallon, so increasing the demand will only increase the price.
This turns out to be not the case. The reason why diesel is much more expensive than gas is that less crude oil is being refined into diesel. One 55 gallon barrel of crude oil can be refined into roughly 40 gallons of gasoline. The amount of diesel that could be made from it is slightly more, but for sake of argument we will say it is the same. If 30 gallons of gas are refined from one barrel, then only 10 gallons of diesel are being made from it. If 35 gallons of gas are being refined from it then only 5 gallons of diesel can be made.
The aftermath of hurricane Katrina showed the oil companies that people will accept $4+ a gallon gas, so they have voluntarily cut back oil production to artificially keep gas prices high. OPEC has cut back production substantially to get prices at $100+ a barrel to keep their profits up. But because of this lower production they must refine a larger percentage of crude oil into gas instead of diesel to meet demand.
If diesel cars become common it will 1) increase demand for diesel and 2) decrease demand for gas. This will force refiners to make a larger percentage of diesel, which will lower the price of diesel, while increasing the price of gas.
The second reason why increased demand for diesel will decrease its price is that if even 10% of the cars sold are diesel, then just the threat of cheap (around $1 a gallon), readily available biodiesel will scare the oil companies into decreasing prices further, hoping that consumers will chose convenience (at the pump) over cheap.
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opfreak
- Apr 2, 2008 5:47 am
(#41 Total: 48)
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tech from my reading you are mistaken... while its easier to make diesel it requires more oil to make:
That it requires roughly 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel vs a gallon of gasoline. So it makes some sense that diesel should be roughly 25% more then gasoline due to useing more raw material.
So if from a barrel of oil (55 gallons) nets you 40 gallons of gasoline.
it would take 1.25 barrels of oil to make 40 gallons of diesel.
So to get 160 gallons of gasoline you would use 4 barrels of oil.
And to get 160 gallons of gasoline you would use 5 barrels of oil.
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/catalyst/sp04-catalyst-diesel-or-gasoline-fuel-for-thought.html
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texases
- Apr 2, 2008 6:27 am
(#42 Total: 48)
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Tech-
Wrong on several counts. World oil production has continued to increase, not decrease, but consumption (you, me, India, China, etc.) continues to grow quickly. And you can't refine oil into any mix of diesel/gas you want, it's pretty well determined by the oil and the equipement installed in the refinery. There are only a certain number of gallons of gas and a certain number of gallons of diesel, with only minor changes possible.
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"Although GM executives are more optimistic than some of their rivals about the auto market, they are pessimistic when it comes to the price of oil.
"We don't see it coming down," DiGiovanni said. "The reasons are that the U.S. doesn't really drive oil prices any more."
In the past, a slowing U.S. economy would inevitably cause oil prices to fall, but the dollar's weakness -- and oil is traded in dollars -- and the surging growth of the Russian, Chinese and other emerging economies are underpinning high oil prices."
I just pulled that out of the Detroit News. GM's predicting oil prices are going nowhere but up.
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"GM executives are notoriously reliable when it comes to predicting the future"......thought ddastardly whilst staring through the window at an Aztek in the parking lot.
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L.A. CA United States of America |
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1487
- Apr 3, 2008 5:28 am
(#47 Total: 48)
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Philadelphia PA United States of America |
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" think America will catch on. There just aren't enough options at this time. Believe me, when Honda and Toyota make them, they will sell. Most of us don't really give a damn about being green, we want high mileage."
Americans arent that bright. They want high mileage but they dont want to pay for it. Who in their right mind isn't going to say they want a car with better mileage than the one they drive now? No one. The problem is people in the US are notoriously unrealistic and are never in favor of compromise.
""GM executives are notoriously reliable when it comes to predicting the future"......thought ddastardly whilst staring through the window at an Aztek in the parking lot."
Hilarious! so if GM execs say oil prices are going up I guess we should assume they are going down. I mean, GM has always been wrong about everything in the past which is why they sold more vehicles than anyone for 77 years. Sounds like complete incompetence to me. lets see what Honda or Hyundai exces have to say. Maybe we can believe them.
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coachrz
- Apr 11, 2008 5:58 pm
(#48 Total: 48)
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The math is simple, diesels are cheaper to operate. Example = gasoline @ $3.00 per gallon @ 30 mpg for 4,500 miles would cost $450.00. Diesel @ $4.00 per gallon @ 45 mpg for 4,500 miles would cost $400.00. For the same 4,500 mile trip, diesel would be $50.00 less expensive than gasoline. Diesels get about 50% better mileage than gasoline engines.
The real trick will be when VW introduces diesel engines that are paired with an electric motor for a "hybrid diesel." Not only cleaner and more fuel efficient, but not a new idea.....a tried and true idea whose time has come for the family car. After all, diesel-electric locomotive engines have pulled and pushed trains for decades!
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