Karl on Cars

Furthermore I would like to say that I like to drive ridiculously fast, yet I'm usually satisfied with the mere 145 hp my 2700 pound car generates. With the conservative weight, lack of power robbing torque converter, and proper wringing of the power plant, I effortlessly outrun (or am held back by more often) 95% of traffic without really trying. The only time I'm really in want of more power is when I'm trying to travel our highways at left lane Autobahn speeds. Wind resistance is a worthy opponent!

1487 -
 
Your Honda example is pointless. You took an Accord with an unefficient I-4 and compared it to a 2008 Accord.
 
No, i compared the 1996 Accord V6 to a 2008 V6 and a 2008 Inline 4. That 1996 V6 was the top line car of the Accord line-up in 96.
 
The gains are impressive but you neglect to mention that the new Accord is utilizing all the tools in the current fuel savings arsenal including VVT and VCM. Those technologies are great but where do you go from here? You can deactivate more cylinders. You can't add MORE VVT to gain more efficiency. At this point what you are left with is adding DI, a diesel or a hybrid powertrain. DI is likely to get you 1mpg. A diesel will get you more but cost you acceleration and add cost and will not be popular amongst buyers.
 
I'm sorry, I forgot you're a mechanical engineer and you have figured out all the efficiency that can be eeked from a Honda engine. That's why a 2008 2.4 liter Honda engine with 200 HP and 160_ ft-lbs of torque has more power and offers better efficiency than the 1996 Honda V6...because you've figured everything out. Right?
 
As for Diesel, Honda is releasing a 2.2 diesel in the USA soon. It's the same engine they're using in the Euro Accord for 09 and it's an impressive unit capable of well over 40 mpg freeway, and sporting more power than the 96 Accord V6 I showed you.
 
If we listened to you, then the manufacturers should pack it in now. They'll never hit the measely combined average of 26 mpgs. Not with only 12 years to go! There are no advancements occurring at all, right? VW, Subaru, Honda haven't recently released sensational new diesels. Surely, those engines are pinnacle of all engineers will ever achieve. We will never create better, lighter batteries that can be seamlessly integrated with a powertrain. Never. Simple fact that auto engineering has reached its zenith. No lighter, stronger plastics.
 
1487, contact the media and let them know it's all over. You've spotted the exact point we will cease to improve anything mechanically.

"Those technologies are great but where do you go from here?"
 
aVTEC?

Fuel economy has been a priority here for maybe 3 years. But in European markets where the government taxes gas at $6-8 a gallon it has been goal one for two decades.
 
If thousands of professional engineers on hundreds of projects with billions of dollars in funding have only made incremental and rapidly diminishing advances, what reason is there to think that US government fiat by lawyers without technical backgrounds is going to change that?
 
Solving one engineering problem in the past doesn't show that a totally different problem today is also solvable.
 
In 1908 planes could fly 30 or 40 miles per hour.
In 1958 planes could fly 1500 miles per hour.
By that logic the government should pass a law that planes today should fly 60,000 miles per hour. Those 580 knot Boeings are a conspiracy of complacent engineers and big oil!
 
Magic can do anything. Engineering can't. Confusing engineering and magic shows you don't understand either.

aspade,
 
Actually, they're spending resources improving diesels drastically. Outrside the US diesel is the cheaper and more accepted alternative. We've seen large jumps in diesel power and efficiency over the past two-three years. Recently MB and BMW have shown off variations of hybrid-diesel which exhibit exceptional mileage.
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/autoshows/geneva/2008/bmwx5vision.html
 
"Sitting up front underneath the reworked X5's expansive hood is BMW's new twin-turbocharged common-rail injection, 2.0-liter inline-4 diesel engine. Equipped with the latest Bosch piezo injectors, the diesel produces 204 horsepower along with an impressive 295 pound-feet of torque at 2,000 rpm. The small electric motor provides 20 hp and 155 pound-feet of torque and is powered by electricity stored in two separate lithium-ion batteries sited in the space usually reserved for the spare wheel underneath the floor of the cargo bay...
 
...BMW claims the new package will achieve 36.2 mpg for its latest concept. This is dramatically better than the 29 mpg expected from an X5 with BMW's 225-hp 3.0-liter inline-6 diesel."
 
MB has a hybrid diesel e class that they claim will get 45 mpg and they're releasing an ML hybrid that will get 30 mpg.
 
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004731.html
 
S300 Bluetec Hybrid gets over 33 mpg and that's in a massive S class:
 
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/07/frankfurt-preview-mercedes-benz-s-300-bluetec-hybrid/
 
But yeah there are no advances and nobody in Europe has made any significant progress creating highly efficient cars in the recent future. Good grief...

Nobody said there are no advances left to be made. But all of the low hanging fruit is picked, whats left is increasingly marginal and expensive.
 
Marginal and expensive may well turn a 25 mpg car into a 30. But million dollar tech demonstrators aside, it won't turn it into a 43 mpg car.

Aspade,
 
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.eea1863
 
"However, while 35 mpg makes a great sound bite from the floor of Congress, the actual, real-world mileage needed will be approximately 26.5 mpg. That's 24 percent better than today's requirement, but not the 40 percent jump all the politicians are crowing about."
 
But you guys are right, that's low hanging fruit. Sigh. Efficient diesels from Honda, BMW, VW and Subaru already beat these numbers and these diesels are in cars right now. But yet you're resistant.
 
I'm not sure why you're all so opposed to something that's happening incrementally over the next decade. I'm not sure why you all believe nothing will improve. Have any of you opposed to engine improvements driven a european diesel? I'm guessing the answer is a resounding no.
 
Do a google search on the 2009 honda accord diesel. Or 2008 Subaru diesel. The cars exist ...
 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0801_subaru_boxer_turbodiesel_first_drive/specifications.html
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124553#2
 
"The power figures are impressive. The boxer diesel produces 148 horsepower at 3,600 rpm and 258 pound-feet of torque at just 1,800 rpm. The engine is capable of 60.5 mpg. This compares with the 320d's turbocharged 2.0-liter inline-4 diesel that produces 174 hp and 271 lb-ft of torque, while the Honda Accord's turbocharged, 2.2-liter inline-4 diesel delivers 138 hp and 251 lb-ft of torque."
 
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4235586.html
 
"If reports are correct, the Jetta should get upwards of 50 mpg, combined highway and city. "
 
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122792
 
"The Jetta TDI will cost about $2,000 more than the standard Jetta, which starts at about $18,000. Volkswagen estimates the TDI will post city fuel economy "in the 40s" and highway economy "in the 50s." A 50-state legal Touareg is on its way soon."
Passat 2.0 TDI
http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/volkswagen/volkswagen-passat-2.0-s-tdi-cr-4dr.asp
 
Urban Fuel
34.9 mpg (29 USA)
 
Extra Urban
55.4 mpg (45 USA)
 
Combined
45.6 mpg (37.5 USA)
 
But it's too hard to get 26 mpg, let alone 35 combined.
 
We have not seen a diesel hybrid on the road yet but within the next 10 years, we will and when coupled with Li-Ion the results will be astounding. BMW, MB and others in europe are showing these cars right now and when they're ready for production we'll get numbers even more impressive. Low-hanging fruit...

"I'm sorry, I forgot you're a mechanical engineer and you have figured out all the efficiency that can be eeked from a Honda engine. That's why a 2008 2.4 liter Honda engine with 200 HP and 160_ ft-lbs of torque has more power and offers better efficiency than the 1996 Honda V6...because you've figured everything out. Right? "
 
That same engine barely gets better mileage than Honda's V6 with VCM which basically tells you there isnt much more they can do to wrong efficiency out of the 2.4L save adding DI. With all the tech on the Honda 2.4L the TSX only gets 20 or 21mpg in the city. It will not be easy to get that number to 30 considering all the bells and whistles it already has.
 
Your argument is the same as those lame politiicians. It is so ridiculous to assume that car companies have no interest in one upping one another when the market is so competitive. To say that this technology exists or is easily attainable but is being ignored by automakers is absolutely silly. We just saw the biggest gain in mileage in recent memory with hybrid synergy drive. You are unlikely to see any new tech that can do more than hybrid technology in the near future. A 30%-50% gain in mileag is HUGE but the problem is its not cheap and it compromises the packaging of the vehicle. There is no free lunch when it comes to fuel efficiency gains.
 
My bad about teh 1996 Honda- that mileage is still poor for a V6 with so little power and displacement. I thought Honda was better than that.
 
"As for Diesel, Honda is releasing a 2.2 diesel in the USA soon. It's the same engine they're using in the Euro Accord for 09 and it's an impressive unit capable of well over 40 mpg freeway, and sporting more power than the 96 Accord V6 I showed you. "
 
I know about the diesel. Diesels are not new technology, they have always been more efficient. What you dont get about CAFE is that its sales weighted. If people buy diesels in small numbers they will not do much to improve an automakers CAFE rating. You and I both know (OK you probably dont) that diesels are not going to be big sellers in the near future due to costs and perception. Furthermore, CA and other states want to enact stricter rules on emissions that will all but ban diesels from those states. Since you are a supporter of politicians who think they are smarter than engineers I want to know your stance on that. BMW, MB and Honda are going to great lengths to come up with 50 state legal diesels and the rules could be changing again which would make their efforts moot in CA and states that follow CA's twisted lead.
 
You are right, I am a mech. engineer. I'm guessing you are not by the way you assume all this stuff is easy. Maybe you should run for congress. You will fit right in.
 
BTW, you can post all the MPG figures you want for diesels that arent even sold here but the reality is most of those cars will be slow and pricey by American standards. If people dont buy them it will not make a difference in terms of CAFE. Considering the low value of the dollar you can rest assured any diesels imported from Europe or Japan (assuming they are 50 state legal) will come with a nice price premium.
 
BTW, C&D tested a $30k civic diesel in England and got only slightly better mileage than the gas only civic sold here. I don't know how they calculate mileage in Europe but it seems like the figures you are quoting with confidence are very optimistic. Also, if you dont care about performance you can always get great mileage by making small engines with more power. One reason (in addition to diesel fuel) that European cars get better mileage than American cars is that they drive smaller, weaker cars in Europe. If the average American were willing to settle for a family car with 100hp we sure as hell could see some significant mileage gains. Problem is, I don't think people over here are anxious to buy cars with that kind of power and 0-60 times of 11secs- even when gas is this high.

"You are right, I am a mech. engineer. "
 
Really? Or is this sarcasm that I'm not getting because of the whole "text" thing....

1487,
 
 If we have attained the highest efficiency and power possible, why continue to develop engines? Is there some research that proves all the manufacturers believe they've gone as fas as possible?
 
You're dismissing diesels, li-ion hybrids and anything else that doesn't provide maximum generic power but have you personally experienced a European Common Rail Diesel? Have you had any seat time in a 2.0 TDI?

"Really? Or is this sarcasm that I'm not getting because of the whole "text" thing...."
 
Really.
 
"If we have attained the highest efficiency and power possible, why continue to develop engines? Is there some research that proves all the manufacturers believe they've gone as fas as possible?
"
 
Stop taking the immature approach to rebutting posts you don't like and read what was stated by apade and myself. Neither of us said no further improvements were possible. You can keep rephrasing what we said for your own purposes OR you can deal with what we actually said: it is not going to be easy to get large mileage gains going forward because automakers have already utilitized a bevy of technologies just to get fuel efficiency where it is today. Many of the advancements we have today exist simply because there is the computing power available to do them. Engineers could think up solutions in the 70s and 80s that weren't feasible due ot paltry computing power (like cylinder deactivation) but those dreams came to fruition in the 90s and 2000s. That said, the advancements are just as much about increasing power without decreasing mileage as anything. We can get far more mileage out of our vehicles but NOT without compromises. I don't see why you and naive politicians can't grasp that simple concept. You are saying we can easily have our cake and eat it too when Europe is a perfect example of the type of compromises I am talking about. Since you frequent Europe and are an expert on ED I'm sure you know about the size and power levels of European cars. Their fleet doesn't look like our fleet AND they extensively use diesel and that is why they have far more high mileage vehicles than we do. It's not about Europeans have more engineering know how, its about the realities of their auto market. Diesels are loved and encouraged over there, space is tight and gas is far more expensive than it is here. THOSE FACTS are what determine the European vehicle mix, not superior engineering. We can get more power quickly as long as states relax their emissions rules to allow more affordable diesels here and people start settling for smalller, less powerful cars. Most of the top selling cars in Germany have less than 150hp according to an article I saw recently. Not only that, nearly every car on the list was a subcompact or compact. No crossovers, no large sedans, no pickups, etc.

"You're dismissing diesels, li-ion hybrids and anything else that doesn't provide maximum generic power but have you personally experienced a European Common Rail Diesel? Have you had any seat time in a 2.0 TDI?"
 
what are you talking about? When did I "dismiss" anything you mentioned? Diesels cost more and are not legal in some states. It's pretty simple. I never argued that diesels don't yield greater efficiency than gas engines. We all know that (I know its shocking that others have this knowledge) so you aren't telling me anything new. You keep talking diesels but are not talking about diesel fuel cost, emissions problems or lack of interest in the US market. You cannot improve CAFE averages with cars that dont sell. I would be shocked if Honda expects the Accord diesel to be more than 10-20% of volume in a best case scenario. The accord hybrid was essentially like a diesel in terms of efficiency gain vs gas counterpart and price premium. We all know how that turned out. The only way to avoid such realities is to offer the diesel models at a loss i.e. Prius but I don't think most automakers are willing to do that.

"Really."
 
Interesting to know. I'm a civil myself. Good stuff.

1487,
 
Diesels cost more and are not legal in some states. It's pretty simple.
 
And yet not true. That's the part I don't get. you're misrepresenting the laws consistently. Diesels are legal in all states. There is no law banning diesels in any state. But yet you repeat this idea that CA has banned diesels. You can sell a diesel in CA if you meet the air reqs or if it's used. Have any idea how expensive a diesel VW is? Go to Navada and AZ and you'll find they sell like crazy and at high rates to Californians. The 2009 diesels from VW, Honda, BMW and MB all meet the current reqs - hell Honda's car does it without any urea injectors. I can't predict the pace of sales but I know that gas is over $4 a gallon by my house. Who isn'te xpecting $5 a gallon by next April/May?
 
You cannot improve CAFE averages with cars that dont sell. I would be shocked if Honda expects the Accord diesel to be more than 10-20% of volume in a best case scenario.
 
The auto industry has 12 years. I don't think anyone expects a turn around instantly. This isn't supposed to change the USA tomorrow. But as gas continues its skyward pricing, the gap from diesel to leaded becomes smaller and smaller. Right now in CA it's a less than 20% jump from unleaded to diesel. This will get smaller as the years go by. As gas passes $6-7 a gallon the gap will seem meaningless compared to the returned fuel efficiency.
 
The accord hybrid was essentially like a diesel in terms of efficiency gain vs gas counterpart and price premium.
 
 The Accord Hybrid offered mild mileage improvements and performance gains. It was an attempt to lure people to hybrids with the promise of more power and a bit better MPGs. Toyota also tried this with the Highlander/RX. They wanted to offer "no compromise" hybrids using NIMH batteries - this isn't possible with NIMH but with Li-Ion we should see a better result from incorporating hybrids with gas/diesel engines.

"hondacura - Good call on the Civic. The '01 version was really crummy, as evinced by how good the preceeding and succeeding versions are. There's a distinct disconnect there."
 
Thanks! I read an article a few years back and Honda admitted the bean counters were WAAAAAAY much to involved in the R&D process in regards to the 01-05 Honda Civics. Honda actually apologized to its customers in that article.

bdc,
 
I know diesels arent banned, but current diesels are not emissions compliant as NEW cars in all 50 states. I dont think VW or Honda or MB is concerned about the used car market. They want to sell NEW diesels in CA and the other states that use CA's air standards. Yes, the new models from MB and Honda will be 50 state compliant but the technology required to make them as such will only add to the cost. Diesel engines are already more expensive than gas engines before you get into AdBlue or any other solutions that allow for 50 state compliance.
 
"Right now in CA it's a less than 20% jump from unleaded to diesel. This will get smaller as the years go by. As gas passes $6-7 a gallon the gap will seem meaningless compared to the returned fuel efficiency. "
 
You are contradicting yourself. If diesels take hold in American it will raise demand for diesel fuel which will drive up prices while concurrently reducing demand for gasoline which would help drive down gas prices. Most people consider paying $.60 more a gallon for diesel to be a bad idea. Most people do not like the idea of paying more upfront and more for gas in order to get a long term savings in fuel costs. Most folks who buy hybrids now acknowledge they don't make much sense financially.
 
The Accord hybrid had a V6 and compared to the V6 accord it's mileage was very good. It was a mild improvement over the much slower Accord four cylinder model. Under the old standards the last gen accord V6 was about 21/29 and the Hybrid was around 30/38 I believe. I'm sure HondaAcura can give us the correct figures.

E36 M3 FTW! Karl, you made my day! I drive a 99 M3 and love my car. In fact, here's my blog post on her birthday:
 
http://cparente.wordpress.com/2008/04/02/happy-birthday-m3/

You are contradicting yourself. If diesels take hold in American it will raise demand for diesel fuel which will drive up prices while concurrently reducing demand for gasoline which would help drive down gas prices
 
 Diesel is cheaper to produce. Only in this backwards country is diesel more expensive. The only reason diesel is priced higher than gas right now - the gas companies can extort it. Thankfully diesel owners aren't confined to using just Exxon and Mobil. There are alternatives now and the potential for new, renewable non-corn-based diesels is amazing. Algae-based diesel offers phenomenal potential.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/04/01/algae.oil/
 
Maybe it's pie in the sky but it offers hope.
  
The Accord diesel gets an average in the high 30s to mid 40s. This isn't a slight bump. This is a jump over the current engines.
 
You seem opposed to diesels but why?

"You seem opposed to diesels but why?"
 
I'm not opposed to diesels, I am trying to get you to join us in the real world. Your position (along with others) is that diesel engines are a panacea to our problems is full of holes. You haven't addressed any of the difficulties diesel faces in this country and you refuse to acknowlegde that US emissons rules are one major factor in diesels being such a nonfactor here. You also dont mention European tax breaks for diesel cars, tax breaks for diesel fuel, European fuel costs that force people to drive small engined cars, displacement taxes, etc. There are a LOT of reasons for diesels being successful in Europe but you act like its simply a matter of people flocking to them over gas engines because they are superior in every way.

1487,
 
I see all the roadblocks but right now there's no other technology that will offer the same massive advantages. Going forward normal gas engines do not show the same promise for economy and even the environment.
 
I guess I'm just exceedingly optimistic because my experiences abroad have taught me diesels today are superior to normal gas engines - without tax breaks or government assistance. When I see the ML320 CDI and ML350 selling for nearly the same amount, nearly the same performance and the 320 CDI offer's 30% better fuel economy, I can't fathom any person picking the 350 over the diesel alternative.
 
We will see how it turns out. For my part of the country, CA, there is no logic behind buying a normal gasoline car in 2009. The giant efficiency advantages, matched to minimum price gaps from premium unleaded to diesel make diesels extremely attractive here. We're talking about $500-700 a year in savings at current prices. That's a 3-4 year ROI assuming a $2000 premium for a diesel (which isn't true for MB's diesel cars).
 
I'm optimistic this will work. Eventually I hope to see algae oil or some other genius concept supplant crappy old dinosaur diesel too, negating the worry about environmental concerns and offering far cheaper, renewable fuel sources, doing the world one more giant favor by removing the usefulness of the middle east. I know pie in the sky...