" Pontiac G8 will give you similar performance (at least in terms of numbers in a chart) and interior space"
For the price, I'll take the G8 GT.
- Ray
Still waiting to read the G8's Edmunds Long Term Intro...

All right, Karl is a Fixx fan! But I think Stand or Fall would have a better choice for this car than Saved By Zero.

Ha ha Karl you had to throw in a G8 comment. Surely you must have known what an uproar it will result in?
 
That instrument cluster is hideous - biggest clock I've ever seen! I'd rather have the G8's bizzare information displays (on the centre console). Overall, I definitely prefer the Audi interior we were discussing in an earlier thread. In fact, I don't really care for the looks on this car at all.

Trades style for ambiance. That's what I call a poor investment.

Someone once said (I don't remeber who) that the E-Class felt cheap campared to the A6. Does it?
 
It was Andrew Frankel who said in his review of the A6 that the E-Class "Lacks style and feels cheap next to the Audi". "Lacks style" I understand, but does it really feel cheap?
 
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/new_car_reviews/article569956.ece

The giant clock is a pretty dumb waste of space. However, I love this car, same way I love the Jaguar XJ. It's about the classic style. It just looks good, and always will. M-B is smart to follow trends with the CLS, and to keep the E-class looking classic. It's like a more affordable Bentley. Recognizeable as something special. Roomy, nicely appointed, comfortable, quiet interior. Horsepower? "More than enough." 0-60? "Yes, quickly!"
 
I can't think of a better "bank vault" to drive across the country in. Maybe an E63. Ooh, E63 wagon, a dad's dream car.

Whenever I drive a Mercedes the picture of a fat burgemeister comes to mind. Handling is so-so, it is luxurious, solid and quiet, but zero driving excitement. What is shocking is that for the elevated prices, they have middling to poor reliability.

Karl, you just mention something that most MB owners say about their cars are "tank like" (panzer waggen). The MB interior is just pure MB kind of boring for many.

I never felt right in a MB. It always struck me as a car for serious, stern faced old men (I think more thin faced mortician then fat burgemeister).
 
My European luxury car of choice was always a Jaguar. Whenever I get in a Jag, I get a warm fuzzy feeling that I'm home.
 
Mercedes have always left me feeling cold and uninvited.

Karl, I agree on this one.
  
I do think the E class is classy looking car if slightly boring. It looks better than the A6 but if I wanted a stately vehicle, I'd get the jag XJ. It looks great on the road even if you have to deal with it's '90s style interior theme.
  
The 5.5L is lacking in power for it's displacement and valvetrain. A 16 valve 5.7L LS6 made 405hp. Benz is really losing it if you ask me- both the S and CL became uglier inside and out while the E soldiers on looking like a freshened version of the '96 version. At least the ML and GL seem to be nice looking vehicles even if they're dashboards are a mess.
  
That E class gauge cluster is laughable and I've been saying that for years. What's up with the double digit tach readout? Stupid. If MB is the pinnacle of luxury than I might as well aspire to a mid priced family sedan. I do wish you would've taken a picture of the center stack to illustrate how out dated it has become. Why is the nav screen mounted so low? Why are the climate controls mounted higher than the infotainment systems? MB needs to take a look at the new A4 interior (which is visually superior to the A6's interior) or CTS and get a clue.
  
Karl, how about this for an idea? Can we get some cockpit shots from the current crop of luxo sedans posted? Obviously we cannot gauge material quality but we can assess the design and ergonomics.

" can only assume that a Mercedes-Benz engine never falters, because the information conveyed in the gauge cluster is limited to speed, rpm, temp, fuel and time (as in time of day). "
 
LOL! Is the instrument cluster of a car supposed to convey anything other than speed, rpm, temp, fuel and time? I don't think so! Mercedes got it right here!
I like the idea of having the clock in the instrument cluster. Having it as part of the stereo can be distracting when one wants to know the time, and if there's bright sunlight, the stereo display may be barely visible! So kudos to Merc!
 
I like Merc's simplicity to dash and instrument cluster design. I'll probably get killed here, but the Audi A6 dash does nothing for me...I think it's ugly. BMW, let's not even go there.
I think the Cadillac CTS wins in that regard. The dash and instrument cluster are functional and beautiful.

blackadder, I agree. I like that clock being there. I don't know if care how plain jane they made it look, but I agree that I like a simple instument cluster with speed, rpms, fuel, and the digital odometer. I don't even need a tempature gauge, and would rather have an Idiot light that turns on if the car is overheating.

"What's up with the double digit tach readout? Stupid. "
 
Does a double digit tach really bother you that much? Its probubly the least important thing to complain about in an instrument display. Whether is says "3" or "30", you know what it means because of the scale.

I feel bad for Mercedes. The Japanese really ruined the party for them. A couple of years ago I got to drive a brand new 2005 S class and I thought "this is it? This is the great Mercedes?" Sure it was really powerful and full of luxury but it felt, well, kind of awkward. The car was beautiful but some of the switch gear and dash felt like maybe Chrysler lent a hand in making it. It was firmly sprung in a sporty way but very isolated from the driving experience. I was really underwhelmed and confused. Recently I got to drive a 1989 E320; the "over engineered" Mercedes. The ergonomics were bizarre; strange buttons coming out at random from the "wood" console. But everything felt real solid and everything worked. That car is a tank and it has this intangible old world luxury feel; Like you're driving a huge sedan from the twenties. It's a pure luxury car. That's when I got it; why the 2005 S class was so awkward. In the late eighties the Japanese came with their well engineered re badged Camries and Accords; cheaper, more electronics and now everyone could afford a nice luxury car. New money versus old money and Merc no longer had the luxo market to itself. It had to compete and cut costs and try to appeal to some of that new money. But Mercs aren't supposed to be sports sedans, or luxury SUVs, or whatever. And they're not supposed to be cheap.

The clock being right next to the speedo is sort of a MB signature thing. I like it. They've also managed to include additional information into the center of the needle cluster. Very smart. The overal design looks very purposful and elegant in person.

"But Mercs aren't supposed to be sports sedans, or luxury SUVs, or whatever. And they're not supposed to be cheap."
 
Very, very true! Except perhaps, maybe there are more "new money" buyers than real/old money buyers so Mercedes wants to tap into that market and increase profits??!!
As for price, like I always say, there is no point in having an affordable luxury car. It's the expensive price that guarantees the exclusivity and snob appeal. How can I brag to my neigbours if my Mercedes costs $30k?
 
"But everything felt real solid and everything worked."
What happened to Mercedes reliability? They used to be better than even Toyota! And, Benson, if you're impressed by the '89 E320, you'll probably be more impressed by the '86 300E. It's fuel injection system was engineered such that if the battery or the electrical system failed for some reason, it would revert to being a mechanical fuel injection system! Wow! They don't make Benzes like that anymore.....

Karl, talking about MB signature things, is the E-class parking brake still foot-operated?

It screams old man to me. This car looks like it’s going after the same target demo that Cadillac was going after back in the 80’s.

"Does a double digit tach really bother you that much? Its probubly the least important thing to complain about in an instrument display. Whether is says "3" or "30", you know what it means because of the scale."
 
It bothers me. It's confusing and pointless. I rode shotgun in a Mk3 Jetta that had a double digit tach right beside the speedo and I glanced over and became throughly confused, thinking the tach was the speedometer. I think the left/right placement of those two gauges was "backwards" compared to my car, aiding the confusion.

When is this car being redesigned? It's pretty much the oldest car in the MB lineup right now. But still I prefer over the A6 from a few days ago.

blackadder
 
That's sweet about the injection system.
 
The difference I guess between the 89 Merc and the 2005 was that the 89 one felt like it was crafted and the new one just felt like it was made on an assembly line like any other car. A nice car but just a car. I guess if Mercedes wants to stay competitive in the global economy it has to do what it's doing. Too bad though. Everyone's a sell out.

"It bothers me. It's confusing and pointless. I rode shotgun in a Mk3 Jetta that had a double digit tach right beside the speedo and I glanced over and became throughly confused, thinking the tach was the speedometer. I think the left/right placement of those two gauges was "backwards" compared to my car, aiding the confusion."
 
lol, well, fair enough. I'm a little concerned for your driving overall if you think you're driving a car with a top speed of about 70 and a redline on the speedo....and a speedo that moves up and down as you accelerate at that. If you owned a car with this sort of tach, you would never be confused again after the first drive. I drove an '04 Golf for 4 years and I didn't even consider its double digit tach until someone pointed it out on IL! Its not me being careless - I just don't see the big deal.

"...Very smart. The overal design looks very purposful and elegant in person."
 
I'd hardly classify a mix of analog dials and electronic bar graphs elegant. If this mess of a cluster were in a "lesser" automobile, it'd be universally panned. Get rid of the stupid clock and mount a larger screen in between the tach and the speedo that can display more information in a larger font. Oh wait, I think Audi/VW have figured this out years ago.

The fact that this car still sells is proof of how people are willing to be ripped off for the "privelege" of owning a status symbol like the E class. The pricing is so high it's absurd but MB knows there are thousands who will line up every year to overpay for this car. The only advantage it has is big hp but in this class all the cars have more than enough power. The STS starts out $9k cheaper and comes with 34 more hp standard. The E class needs to be getting cheaper, not more expensive. I'd go with an A6, STS or GS over this any day and pocket the thousands I would save.

Chavis, what more information could you want from the instrument cluster? I think Mercedes has just got it right and the clock is a brilliant idea....having the clock as part of the stereo has never been a great idea.
 
1487, I'd choose the E-class over all those models you've mentioned. Your argument about the E-class being a "rip off" is neither here nor there.....luxury cars are about prestige and since Mercedes is more prestigious than those brands in makes sense that it should be more expensive.
If you argue based on "value" alone, then no luxury car is worth the money. There is always an equivalent non-luxury that will meet one's needs.

black- um, how about a legible trip computer/driver information center? I've never had an issue with reading the time from the radio faceplate. Don't see why that's a bad idea since it's visible from all seating positions. BTW, the E320 is a huge rip off. It's one of the oldest cars in it's class and lacks personality. If owning a supposed "prestigious" makes you warm and fuzzy than more power to you. If I'm the one making the payments, I'm the only one who needs to have an opinion on my car's prestige. I'd get a STS V6, XFV8, 535i, CTS or M35 over that thing any day. The E63's V8 might be the only thing to distract me from Big Ben on the right side of the cluster.

Chavis, have you tried to read time from a radio faceplate on a sunny afternoon?
 
Trip computers are useless. They're just frivolous....a trip odometer is adequate. I've all my life driven cars without one and I've never felt the need for one....yes, I've taken long trips and I found the trip odometer perfectly adequate. (BTW, this Benz does has a trip computer.)
 
And what's a driver information center? Honestly, I don't know.
 
Whether you agree or not, prestige is a relative thing and not dependent only on the owner's opinion. How people percieve you is basically what gives prestige.The fact is that one gets more "respect" when driving an E-class than when driving an STS.
 
Tell me, would you want an MBA from UC Berkeley when you have admission to a Harvard MBA program and you can afford it? Yeah I know: you'd choose Harvard! Why? Afterall both UC Berkeley and Harvard are rated in the top 10 MBA programs and we both know that means that they're essentially equal.......but UC Berkeley is far cheaper. Yet you'll choose Harvard because people will give you more "respect". It's the same reasoning with choosing a Mercedes.

Has Mercedes installed the revamped 305hp 3.5 V6 in the E350 yet?
 
"What happened to Mercedes reliability? They used to be better than even Toyota! And, Benson, if you're impressed by the '89 E320, you'll probably be more impressed by the '86 300E. It's fuel injection system was engineered such that if the battery or the electrical system failed for some reason, it would revert to being a mechanical fuel injection system! Wow! They don't make Benzes like that anymore"
 
My uncle has a 1999 Mercedes C43 AMG and a 1989 300TE wagon. Both cars have EXCEPTIONAL build quality, the wagon even more so.
The 300TE still exhibits that "bank vault" feel with not a squeak or a rattle to be heard. Even with over 300K on the odo the car gives me enough confidence on the road that I wouldnt think teice about driving it cross country.
 
Ill probably get bashed for saying this but I still believe that Mercedes offers craftsmanship that few can rival.

"lol, well, fair enough. I'm a little concerned for your driving overall if you think you're driving a car with a top speed of about 70 and a redline on the speedo....and a speedo that moves up and down as you accelerate at that."
 
LOL...That's why I was so concerned myself!!!

"luxury cars are about prestige and since Mercedes is more prestigious than those brands in makes sense that it should be more expensive. "
 
That is ridiculous. MB isnt more prestigious in my book and even if it was the other brands are prestigious enough for me not to be embarrassed driving them. Sorry, but I don't let other people's perception of a brand affect what I am willing to spend. All luxury cars in this price range are quiet, powerful, well built and offer great dealership experience. Its amazing how people feel that you can really qualify something as subjective as "prestige".

"And what's a driver information center? Honestly, I don't know. "
 
Its a center where the driver can access information about the vehicle and change settings. Its self explanatory.
 
"The fact is that one gets more "respect" when driving an E-class than when driving an STS. "
 
And who cares? I certainly do not. Why would I care what those who see me driving by care about my car? If you are pretentious I suppose these things are important to you but I assure you anyone who drives an STS or A6 can afford an E class so there are obviously thousands of well off folks who disagree with your assertion that they would be better off driving an E class because it has more snob appeal. Anyone with a shred of common sense buys a car based on its price, style, performance, space, quality reputation, etc. To pay thousands more for a particular car ONLY because it will get you more admiring stares at the country club is insane. If you really want respect you will show some individuality and get something different that shows you can think for yourself.

What information and what settings? The driver already knows the speed, rpm, temperature, and amount of fuel left....and knows stuff like outside temperature, current fuel economy and fuel left in the vehicle. All these from the analog guages, a few LEDs and the trip odometer.
So what else could a "driver information center" give? And what settings do you change? Apart from stereo, air conditioning and gear settings, I can't think of any others that are changeable by the driver! And these don't require a "driver information center"......
 
You may not care but there are many people who do, and don't pretend like there aren't. Just like some guys choose a certain (type of) car because they get more attendion from ladies, so are there people who buy cars because of the "respect" (a.k.a. prestige) the get from society. Fact: whether intentional or not, rich folk generally do not like driving cars associated with the masses and "riff-raff".
 
"Anyone with a shred of common sense buys a car based on its price, style, performance, space, quality reputation, etc."
 
If people bought cars based on your definition of "common sense" only, luxury cars manufacurers would be out of business. These days, most, if not all, non-luxury cars have all these "common-sense" traits. The '08 Honda Accord has great performance, space, quality reputation (build quality, reliability and longevity), any features one can think of, and even some style, but would you see Donald Trump or Snoop Dogg drive/ride one? Why? Because it is not prestigious enough..... Similarly, other buyers who seek prestige wouldn't drive an Accord! These rich guys and their wannabes don't want to drive a car that may be associated more with the masses.
 
Look, there are other reasons why people buy luxury cars but prestige is the main one...well, one of the main ones.
Maybe you misunderstood me, 1487. You are making the point that the E-class is not worth buying over the STS and A6. I'm saying it is. It offers more prestige than either STS or A6. And it has other good traits too. The dash layout you, chavis and Karl are criticising as "outdated" is actually more straightforward, logically laid out and nicer than the A6' confusing dash. And finally, have you thought that maybe there are people who like the "business-like" personality?

"The information conveyed in the gauge cluster is limited to speed, rpm, temp, fuel and time (as in time of day). "....and who REALLY needs to know the rpm especially in an automatic MB sedan?
 
I have a car where the big ol' tach is in the center of the cluster....I never look at it...I don't care..,,,I don't race....I can tell when I need to change gear. All I need to know is how fast I'm going and how much gas I have.....is it happy hour yet?

I recently drove a 2003 Monte Carlo and the salesman made a big deal about the drivers information center. When I turned the car on and played with it, I was pretty disappointed with it. Definitely not a selling point.

I remember a Plymouth Acclaim or something of similar ilk I was in once had a Driver Information Center. I think it told you what door was open. Had a big prominent location on the dash too like it was a big deal. Silly.

"Fact: whether intentional or not, rich folk generally do not like driving cars associated with the masses and "riff-raff". "
 
is this why Cadillac has trouble selling vehicles? Got it.
 
FYI- prior to 5 or 6 years ago most rappers and athletes favored import cars like MBs, Range Rovers, Bentleys, etc. They still love those vehicles but will also drive Escalades and Hummers as well.
 
Its apparent that you are a MB fan and thus don't to accept that the E class is dated at this stage. Its not a bad car (it better not be for all that money) but its not at the head of the class and it's too pricey for what it offers. If you believe that ANY MB is better than ANY car from another brand regardless of merits or cost then that is your choice. for those of us who are not in awe of the 3 pointed star the E class is an also ran.

I admit I'm a MB fan, but your implication that I'm not being open-minded is not true. Let's look at the points raised here.
 
1. The E-Class dashboard is not the best. I agree: I've clearly stated that the CTS dash is the best in my opinion. But I think the E-Class dash is better than any Audi or BMW dash.
 
2. The E-Class is "too pricey for what it offers".
From a pure value perspective, I agree. But when value, prestige, and other intangibles are intermingled, this is no longer straightforward. Considering that MB is more prestigious than Audi or Cadillac, how can you make a sound argument that the E-Class is too pricey relative to the A6 and STS?
Just to illustrate how complex it becomes when we factor prestige and other intangibles, I can clearly say that any luxury sedan is too pricey for what it offers. Afterall, the 2008 Honda Accord offers just about everything a luxury sedan could offer, except prestige.
For the same reasons that an A6 is worth more than an Accord, an E-Class is worth more than an A6, STS or even 5-series.
 
3. "the E class is dated at this stage".
Why? How? The E-class is up to date or ahead of the competition as far as power, safety features, comfort/refinement and any concievable features/technologies are concerned. How can you logically argue that it's outdated?
[Perhaps the exterior styling is no longer eye-catching but it still looks better than the 5-series and the STS.]
 
And you still haven't explained to me what a "driver information center" is and why the E-Class or any car would need one!
 
Lastly, "is this why Cadillac has trouble selling vehicles?" Well, Cadillacs might be selling well, but if you look at the clientele I'm willing to bet that MB sells to richer people. Cadillacs appeal mostly to celebrities and their wannabes, and suburban moms who want to seat 7 people, not really rich upper-class people.

"But when value, prestige, and other intangibles are intermingled, this is no longer straightforward. "
 
You cant measre intangibles. A die hard import lover thinks a Corolla is a better car than ANY domestic vehicle, even the new CTS. That doesn't make it an accurate assessment however. To many people in CA and other import saturated area it's embarrassing to be seen in anything without a foreign nameplate and thus the most advanced, beautiful, safest vehicle built by a domestic nameplate would still lack prestige and not be considered by folks in that market. I don't believe a Camry is more prestiguous than a CTS or Enclave but I assure you there are millions who disagree.
 
"Why? How? The E-class is up to date or ahead of the competition as far as power, safety features, comfort/refinement and any concievable features/technologies are concerned. How can you logically argue that it's outdated? "
 
Its styling is dated. It's interior design featuring a low mounted, small nav screen is dated. It's 268hp base engine is one of the weakest in class and doesn't offer direct injection. Its technology is merely par for the course. Nothing exceptional outside of the 7 speed automatic.
 
You dont need a Driver Info center but many cars have one, including cars costing thousands less than the E class.

1487,
 
"A die hard import lover thinks a Corolla is a better car than ANY domestic vehicle, even the new CTS."
LOL! But I don't think it's true. The die hard import lover would think the Corolla would be more reliable, but not more prestigious or "better". He won't be bragging to his rich friends about his Corolla! LOL!
 
Especially given Mercedes recently mediocre (at best) reliability record, I doubt its prestige is just because it's a foreign nameplate. Mercedes is simply a car many (me included) aspire to own if they ever become rich or well-to-do.....and there's just some quality about them that make them worth more than most of the competition.
I think I'm right here: when prestige and other intagibles are involved (and that's always the case in luxury cars), it's just hard to argue that the E-class is overpriced.
 
Styling (exterior): Agreed.
Styling (interior): I don't agree. Although not beautiful, I like the E-calss interior styling and simplicity/conventionality of the dash.....it's dash is better than the 5-series and, IMO, it looks better than the A6's.
About navigation, I know for a fact that the 3-series, '08 Accord and many modern cars have a small nav screen too. So it isn't a big deal. Besides, the way I understand it, one is not supposed to look at the nav screen while driving...... (Karl, am I right?) The driver is supposed to let the voice prompts guide him/her.
 
Power: I completely disagree.
 
Let's look at the base power of the competition:
BMW 528i: 230 hp
Mercedes E350: 268 hp
Audi A6: 255 hp. (I think the '09 model will offer 265 hp).
Lexus GS: 303 hp
Infiniti M35: 275 hp
Cadillac DTS: 275 hp
 
You can see here that the E-class has very competitive base power, despite being one of the oldest in the line-up. Only the Lexus GS offers significantly more power. Honestly, anything more than 250 hp is more than adequate for anyone who isn't interested more than moderately-fast acceleration.
BTW, there is now a 305 hp version of the E350 engine, which will probably be installed either in 2008.5 or 2009 MY.
 
Not let's look at top-end power. (I've excluded the AMG, S/RS and M models)
BMW 550i: 360 hp
Mercedes E550: 382 hp
Audi A6: 350 hp. (I think the '09 model will offer 265 hp).
Lexus GS: 342 hp
Infiniti M45: 325 hp
Cadillac DTS: 292 hp
 
Here, the E-Class is the best!
I was therefore right in saying the E-class is competitive or ahead of the competition as far as power is concerned! And if they have good or even the best power, who cares whether they have direct injection or not?
The E-class already has one of the best automatic transmissions in its class, and its electronics technologies are either ahead or on par with the competition.
 
Look, I'm not arguing that the E-class could do with improvements (especially exterior styling), or that the price could be lower. There is always room for improvement. All I'm saying is that it is currently at least competitive or ahead of the competition, and given that it's generally considered more prestigious than the competition, it's arguably worth its price. I think our little debate has proved me right.
 
A complete improvement would be nice, but perhaps the only improvement the E-class NEEDS as of now is refreshning of the exterior styling.

prestige
    
 
Main Entry: pres·tige
Pronunciation: \pre-ˈstēzh, -ˈstēj\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French, from Middle French, conjuror's trick, illusion, from Latin praestigiae, plural, conjuror's tricks, from praestringere to graze, blunt, constrict, from prae- + stringere to bind tight — more at strain
Date: 1829
1 : standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion
2 : commanding position in people's minds
synonyms see influence
— pres·tige·ful \-fəl\ adjective
 
______________________________________
 
1487:
 
As you can clearly see, your sole opinion cannot attribute prestige to anything, nor can it take it away from anything. Prestige is granted by a general opinion of the people. I have a hard time believing that a MB would not carry prestige where you live... even in a hick town, they'd realize that it was an expensive and prestigious car.