Long-Term Road Tests

For those who are interested, the 2009 Aura will have bluetooth and standard 6 speed automatic with paddle shifters. There will now be an XR model with the four cylinder available so you can have the features of the XR (minus 18" wheels) and good fuel economy.

"with the windchill it gets to 40 below :-p
"
 
cars don't care what the windchill is, they are only affected by the ambient air temperature. If it is 0F, and -20F with windchill, the car just thinks it's 0F.

"Ive never ONCE said that GM NEVER has offered a high quality product so again I ask you to not put words in my mouth. My point is until recently GM didnt offer CONSISTENT, COMPETETIVE, HIGH QUALITY, appealing products. CONSISTENT meaning a full line of vehicles not just 2 or 3 good high quality, comepetive vehicles. "
 
Here is the thing, until perhaps 10 years ago most Asian branded cars had little to offer besides quality and fuel efficiency. Style, hp and handling were largely lacking until recently. I dont consider most Asian cars more than 10 years old to be desirable at all. It is hilarious that you honestly believe that the lineups of import brands were competitive across the board many years back. Do you remember the Previa? The T100? The first Odyssey? The first Pilot? The Tercel? Every generation of Acura RL? There have been many duds over the years and just like GM we can say that the CURRENT lineups of Toyota and Honda are their best ever.
 
"Reliability can vary from car to car and manufacturer to manufacturer but I still believe that within the last 20-25 years the Japanese (Toyota-Honda) have CONSISTENYLY offered more reliable/durable products over the domestics."
 
I can agree with that but it's not relevant to me in 2008. This is what so many people who swear by the superiority of import brands dont seem to get. When looking for a car today I am concerned about the recent track record and the CURRENT price, feature count and styling of a vehicle. I am not going to shun domestic vehicles because they may have been inferior 25 years ago nor am I going to give Toyota a free pass on their slipping quality simply because they used to be better than the Big 3 25 years ago. 25 years represents more than 80% of my current life- I am not too conccerned about quality 25 years ago. I am concerned about what is happening now. I sat in the 2009 corolla at the auto show and I can tell you its a car designed by a company that is resting on its laurels and thus far 2009 Corolla sales have been disappointing. 4 years after the cobalt comes out Toyota produces a small car with more hard plastics than the Cobalt has ever had as well as lame styling that is five years behind the 3 and Civic. On top of that the car comes with a 4 speed automatic JUST like the Cobalt which has been widely criticized for offering the same number of forward gears when Honda, Mazda and others offer more.

with the windchill it gets to 40 below :-p

Where do you live where some mornings its 40 below, and others its 110 above? The Mongolian Desert?

hondacura4 -
 
whatever,
 My 2001 sunfire just rolled 111k miles, with its 4spd auto. Great car? no, reliable. Never left me stranded, Only check engine ligth was for an 02 sensor. Starts every moring weather its 40 below or 110 above. Is it perfect. No, but its not a junk box like some honda rice boies want to make it out

00' Explorer, reliable transportation for my mother, got her around for 4 years without one visit to the dealer for anything, she did get into two accidents with that beast and it still ran like new.
 
Base model with a cassette player.

'00 Ford Explorer...tons of squeaks and rattles from dash, hatch, and doors. The dealer spent 17 days at one point tracking down a loud clunk from the driver's door. Turned out the b-pillar was never welded to the frame when the truck was built. Traded at 24,000 miles"
  
Thats just unacceptable!
  
My mother has had 2 Expedition Eddie Bauer 4X4s. She purchased both brand new. Her first one was a 1997 as she traded in a VERY SOLID and VERY RELIABLE 1996 Ford Ranger 4cyl 5 speed.
  
The 97 Expedition was pretty decent untill around 35-40,000 miles. After that she had numerous issues: leaky sunroof, leaky windshield, tons of rattles in the rear, brakes and headlights that worked when the wanted too, the interior/running board lights wouldnt go off untill the battery was dead, chirp in the dash (sounded like a little bird, leaky exhaust manifolds, and last but not least the ultra common spitting of spark plugs. I think she got rid of it with about 55,000 miles.
  
The 2000 Expedition EB 4x4 seemed better built at the time of purchase but it was only skin deep as it developed some of the same issues as the 1997. Same leaks, squeaks, rattles, it spit out spark plugs on 3 different occasions (the heads on the 2 valve 5.4 V8s werent cast with enough threading to hold the spark plugs in), rear end bearings, exhaust manifold issues, and the seat heater elements.
  
My mother currently has a 2002 Lexus LX470 with right around 90K and she has only replaced a power steering pump due to a leaky seal. No rattles, no electircal issues. The LX470 is a prime example of how Toyota used to over engineer and overbuild their vehicles.
  
Regarding the Ford spark plug issue, I personally know of a X Ford technician who sold his 1999 Expedition LT and purchased a GMC Yukon just because of that reason. He's actually quit his technician job and opened up his own shop that specializes in repairing the spark plug/head issue. The last time I talked to him he said he himself repairs 2-3 trucks a day depending on how bad the damage is as sometimes the heads are chewed up. He has 2 other guys there also.
  
If you have a 5.4L 2 valve V8 or V10 Ford product (97-02) and its making a odd ticking sound that getting louder be aware its about to puke a plug and its NOT CHEAP.

"I have no sqeaks and rattles so far and I've never known that to be a major problem in GM cars. My Alero had one minor rattle in one location in the 6 years I owned the car. My parents car didnt have rattles after 10 years. For the record, rattles seem to be common in today's cars if you pay attention to long term road tests conducted by car magazines."
  
While I agree that rattles seem to be more common in cars these days, I must diasgree with the comment about squeaks and rattles not being common in GM vehicles. GM is my favorite brand, however squeaks and rattles are one area where they could definitely improve. I have owned the following GM cars in the past 18 years:
'88 Chevy Beretta. Bought used with 24K miles, traded with 42K.
  
'95 Pontiac Grand Am. Leased new, driven 36K miles, and turned in at end of lease.
  
'98 Pontiac Grand Prix. Bought new, traded at 9,000 miles.
  
'99 Chevy Camaro. Bought new, traded at 26,000 miles
  
'06 Chevy Impala. Current car, bought new and now at 24,800 miles.
  
The Beretta was a squeak factory, especially from the dash around the stereo head unit.
  
The Grand Am was fixed twice by the dealer for a nasty rattle from the upper dash. Even after two fixes, the rattle came back and was there on the day the lease ended and I gave it back to them. It had also developed a creaking instrument cluster cover by the 36,000 mile mark.
  
The Grand Prix had a nasty rattle in the dash and rattles in the doors by the time it had 2,000 miles on it.
  
The Camaro was actually half decent, but developed a rattle in the rear hatch somewhere and had creaking side windows (the frameless glass rubbed against the weatherstripping at the top of the door frame and constantly creaked).
  
My current Impala has a creaky top dash panel (I have felt wedged between the top dash panel and the front dash panel that keeps it quiet), the doors clunk over bumps, and one of the rear window defroster connectors is loose and ticks constantly (yesterday afternoon I wedged a small piece of cardboard between it and the rear window to hopefully quiet it down...haven't road tested it yet). The driver's seat creaked constantly for the first year of ownership, until I re-torqued the seat rail bolts and eliminated the problem. The glovebox door also ticks unless I keep the latch soaked in white lithium grease.
  
My parents owned a '03 Impala LS, purchased new and driven 40,000 miles before being traded. I rode in it, and drove the car occasionally, and it had a nasty pop/creak in the top center of the dash and a rattle in the b-pillar near the top seat belt mounting. There was also a creak in the left rear seatback.
  
Other cars I have also owned:
  
'99 VW New Beetle...tons of rattles from the dash, hatch, side panels, etc. Traded at 12,000 miles
  
'00 Ford Explorer...tons of squeaks and rattles from dash, hatch, and doors. The dealer spent 17 days at one point tracking down a loud clunk from the driver's door. Turned out the b-pillar was never welded to the frame when the truck was built. Traded at 24,000 miles
  
'03 Dodge Durango...very solid...one or 2 very minor rattles in the tailgate. Traded at 43,000 miles.
  
'92 Plymouth Sundance Duster...very solid little car...minor dash creak when I traded it at 38,000 miles.
  
'02 Ford Focus ZX5...a handful of dash rattles and creaking doors and side windows. Traded at 17,000 miles.
  
No brand is immune from squeaks and rattles. My parents have owned Toyotas, Fords, Jeeps, Subarus, Saturns, all developed rattles and squeaks.

"he Japanese (Toyota-Honda) have CONSISTENYLY offered more reliable/durable products over the domestics."
 
That's not what I see around here...
 
*sigh*

"People like you have established this narrative that there have never been reliable domestic vehicles until 3 years ago."
  
Ive never ONCE said that GM NEVER has offered a high quality product so again I ask you to not put words in my mouth. My point is until recently GM didnt offer CONSISTENT, COMPETETIVE, HIGH QUALITY, appealing products. CONSISTENT meaning a full line of vehicles not just 2 or 3 good high quality, comepetive vehicles.
  
A good example of a below average GM vehicle would be the Cavalier as that car was produced just a few years ago. Have you ever driven one of those things?
  
A good example of GM's work in progress would be the SUV's, trucks, Aura, Malibu, Impala, G8 (although its a Holden), Corvette, Lambdas, CTS....I think now you can better undertand my point as GM's lineup is consistently getting better and more competitive with each new vehicle.
  
Yes, GM's percieved quality image has improved vastly and its about time. This was recently proven to me when I drove my friends fathers 07 Suburban a few weeks ago. Quality, refinement, solidity, performance it all was present.
  
Reliability can vary from car to car and manufacturer to manufacturer but I still believe that within the last 20-25 years the Japanese (Toyota-Honda) have CONSISTENYLY offered more reliable/durable products over the domestics.

I think what has improved most amongst domestic vehicles (mainly GM) in the last 5 years is interior design, handling, powertrain sophistication and styling. I'm sure reliability had gotten better as well, but perceived quality has increased by a far greater margin.
 
My alero was really the only purchased new GM product I have experience with that had more problems than I feel were acceptable- although the car had zero issues in my last year of ownership. GUess what, I didn't buy another one.

"domestics need to hit a level of perfection now to compete... otherwise they fail at their mission. imports can just go with the status quo"
 
Exactly. Does anyone remember the days when domestic cars were widely derided for dull styling and hard plastics? Now Honda and Toyota offer both in spades and no one eve cars because their vehicles offer great quality and resale value. The moral of the story is that the stronger your brand image, the more leeway you have from the press to create mediocre cars.
 
Hondaacura,
 
You dont have to make any assumptions about why I think there are double standards. People like you have established this narrative that there have never been reliable domestic vehicles until 3 years ago. I never said that I believe that is true and thus I don't share your view that domestics have to prove themselves because until recently they couldnt last more than 50k miles without an engine rebuild. THis is what happens when people who swear by imports and havent owned a domestic vehicle in 20 years are the ones who define what is true and untrue with regards to the reliability of american cars. My parents first car was 11 years old and had 80K+ miles on it when they sold it and it continued to be used for years. Their second car lasted 12 years and 140k miles and was sold. Still running fine of course. The power seat needed to be repaired which probably woulnt have happened on a 12 year old Honda. The car was repainted once as well. Again, this probably wouldnt have been required on a Honda but I think its acceptable for a 12 year old car. Their third car was just sold after nearly 10 years and 97k miles and is still running fine. CAr hasnt even had a tune up yet and will likely last another 5 years. On top of that I see many10+ year old Buicks and Olds on the road today because large G body GM models are now quite popular amongst young people. I believe that 10 years ago an American car would give you more problems over 100k miles of ownership than a Honda or Toyota but that doesnt mean those problems would be critical to the vehicles operation or expensive to remedy. That does not mean that most domestics were incapable of lasting 100K or 150k miles if properly maintained.

"This is it for the problems with the XR. I have had no transmission issues, none. No problems with my sunroof, no steering issues, nothing. No rattles, nothing. The car still drives perfectly, from day one. The car has been reliable from day one. "
 
Stop the lies! I cant be! All Auras have crappy steering racks and other problems!
 
Unfortunately AURAKR positive anecdotal evidence will be discounted here, they only coun the people who post with problems.

"But this car is a joke and I am sad to see other Aura owners are having the same problemS (plural). The car is only going to get worse with age and these people will be left with a car worth a fraction of it’s original value."
 
You have no proof of anything stated above, not that would make you unique in this forum. We have TWO owners who stated they had similar issues with steering and you have enough evidence to determine that all Auras are unreliable and the car is another failure on behalf of GM. I bet you didnt think the Fit's problem with a broken reverse gear had any bearing on the Fit's reliability as a whole. Thats where the double standard comes in, every time there is a problem with one of your beloved import brands its isolated. If we have two people with a steering issue on a GM car its a sign that its a widespread reliability issue. I already said CR recommended the car, the carspace boards were pretty much silent (not so for Camry) and the Consumer ratings were very positive with few mentions of the problems stated here. If you have some data or proof to support your position that Aura's have poor steering systems or low quality overall please share that with the group. Its a pretty simple request.
 
BTW, months back there were other Aura owners who used to post including someone who had his car for a year or so and there was little mention of these supposedly widespread problems. Please spare me the "I really want to buy GM but cant" speech because the reality is anyone who doesn't want to buy a domestic product can find any excuse not to. All the data out there shows that cars in general are more reliable than ever and GM has made larger strides than most in the reliability department. You read about a some noises from a few steering columns and now you have determined that you just cant risk owning a GM model. This while Toyota is making 6 speed automatics than cant shift properly.

"Furthermore, I don't think anyone will ever take you seriously in these forums until you show people some respect. It shows a certain level of class to include statements like "see if you can understand this:" and "Get over it."
 
sir, I give what is given. If you counter my points in a calm, respectful manner than that is what you will get from me. If you post on here as if you are an unparalleled authority on all matters automotive while playing loose with the facts to make your point then I likely will point that out. People who have a predetermined agenda and are not open minded aren't going to like what I'm saying, period. The phrasing doesn't change the facts. As long as I am saying anything besides Honda/Toyota makes the most reliable cars, the best styled cars, the best handling cars and the best engines in the world I am bound to run into serious opposition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPsj2v-fRQ8
 
Nobody sweats the details like GM. Ha ha!

Its certainly a good thing that GM seems to be producing better, higher quality vehicles but what I dont understand is how some people think these new cars will just completely erase GM's perception as the newer cars havent been around long enough to prove themselves.
  
This is probably the reason 1487 thinks the domestics are in the spotlight more than the imports as they are really going to have to prove themselves. The same happened to Toyota over the last few years as some claimed that Toyotas quality has slipped and to some extent it has, Hondas too.
  
To me its all about durability and reliability and I can honestly say all the high milage Hondas/Lexus vehicles Ive owned to date have been very durable. Im not talking about vehicles with 15,000 miles, Im speaking of vehicles with well over 100,000 or 200,000 miles.
  
One of my current vehicles a (tastefully modified) 1995 Honda Civic Ex sedan has been a good car. The interior hasnt faded, the plastics havent chipped or cracked, the seat material still cleans up well and shows very little wear. All the electronics work correctly. It has no squeaks or rattles even though the adjustable coilover suspension is always on the firmest setting.
  
The only things Ive had to replace because of failure was a sunroof switch which I found one at a local junkyard for $5, parking brake sensor, idle air control valve, vtec selenoid, a rear brake caliper, and a drivers side window regulator. Keep in mind that these items that were replaced when the car had well over 150,000+ miles and the fact that I dont drive this car in a "normal" fashion as it has seen its fair share of track time and aggressive driving. The car has been repainted because Honda paint SUCKS! The car currently has over 270,000 miles on the odo and the Integra GSR/Type R sourced drivetrain has more than that. It only left me stranded once in 13 years because of a faulty MSD SCI ignition box.
  
One of the other high milage cars Ive owned would be my former 1996 Lexus ES300. Aside from various gaskets/seals that I replaced this car really shined in terms of build quality. People always refer to the ES as a "glorified Camry" and to some extent it is as they share platforms and drivetrains. But the similarities end there as EVERYTHING from the paint to interior materials were certainly more than just a few notches above what the Camry offered. I sold the car in 2003 after I purchased my current 03 Acura CL-S 6MT. The guy bought the ES for his 16 y/o daughter even with the high milage because he had similar experiences with 3 ES300's.

Ya the 400h gets decent mileage, but its still way better than the speed6. That thing averages 18 mpg. I guess thats the trade off for such a fun to drive car.

I have a 2007 Aura XR and had the same problem with my steering clunking. The dealership said it was a "broken intermediate shaft", fixed it, and I haven't had a problem since.