Long-Term Road Tests

I think it’s funny when Americans say they want to see the domestic industry die. There isn’t a product that BDC could build that would ever sell in the Japanese market. BDC isn’t considered smart enough or worthy enough to be building a product that the Japanese would buy.
 
The people in Japan wouldn’t buy the Xbox 360 when it came out, and the majority of the people over there waited almost a year for the Playstation 3. They made the decision that they would rather not play high definition games then to buy a system that profits “dirt bag” Americans.

I wonder if BDC hates foreign cars that are designed and built in NA....

the quality of the product is irrelevant to BDC, he hates them because they are based in America for whatever reason. That alone proves that nothing he says should be taken seriously. What happened to the days when those who loved American cars were the ignorant bigots who refused to see the light? One has to be pretty ignorant to enbrace the concept of less competiton on the market. Who knows how ugly Asian cars would be if the domestic industry dried up. Vehicles like the Malibu, Fusion, 300, etc. inject style into mass market vehicles. If the Big 3 go under we will be left with designs such as the new Murano, the new Maxima and the Pilot. Thats not a future I would want to have.

Yeah, that makes sense blueguydotcom, because we'd all love to see all domestic industry go belly up, wouldn't we?
 
Irrational hatred of self or society isn't a good thing. I'd be all with you if we were making bad stuff, but that's generally not the case any more.

1487,
 
Lighten up. I'm merely cheering on what - hope, hope - is happening in my lifetime: the demise of domestic brands.
 
Sleep well!

"1487, I may have to create multiple IDs and post it nonstop for you. If I took a pic of every tacky caddy I see, well that would be all of them. Thankfully, they're still rare on the West Coast so my eyes aren't scorched by the absurdity of Caddys too much. "
 
Oh...good one! Your bias is absurd. On the one hand we have the press giving tons of accolades to the CTS and other recent cadillacs and on the other hand we have BDC who hates all domestic branded cars and then wants us to value his "2 cents" about Cadillacs. If you hate domestic cars I fail to see why your opinion should be valid? You have made it clear on numerous occasions that you dont judge domestic branded vehicles based on merits because they all stink and thus I take whatever you say with a grain of salt.
 
"I'm willing to bet most of those are fleet sales. "
 
Not based on data I have seen. By the way "most" could mean 51% or 95% of sales.
 
Cadillac only sold 3363 DTS' in March which indicates they are cutting back fleet sales. Either way Cadillac's car sales are mostly retail, not fleet. They sold 6423 Escaldes and SRXs in March and most of those certainly are not going to enterprise or livery companies.
Hopefully thats not too much hyperbole for you.
 
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=44734

Joe "Second, how much of Cadillac's sales are too limousine companies? Fleets in general? "
  
1487's reply: "Cadilac has ONE model that sells to fleets in appreciable numbers, the DTS. When is the last time you saw an STS or Escalade at Enterprise? Give me a break."
 
Give you a break? Why? I said how much of Cadillac's sales are to fleets? I didn't specify it needed to be the whole portfolio of cars.
 
Let's do some basic math. I took Linard's numbers and added them up: the "hot selling" CTS and the somewhat aged STS combine to sell about 7,500 cadillac's in March....Cadillac sold about 17,500 cars in total. Do we know how much the Escalade sold? It's no longer the newest kid on the block and is an absolute gas hog, so I imagine a few thousand.
 
My guess would be that the DTS's March sales numbers were around 5000-6000.
 
If my theory is correct, then Cadillac is selling as many DTS's as their hot new CTS is selling.
 
I'm willing to bet most of those are fleet sales.
 
Joe

1487, I may have to create multiple IDs and post it nonstop for you. If I took a pic of every tacky caddy I see, well that would be all of them. Thankfully, they're still rare on the West Coast so my eyes aren't scorched by the absurdity of Caddys too much.
 
Have a great day. Keep smiling!

In terms of reviews for the 98 STS, the I couldn't seem to find a C/D one, but a MT one was about on par with Edmunds. I wouldn't call either "very positive", but I also don't think they're too negative. They seem to be middle of the road. This is keeping in mind that due to the age of the car and the age of online publishing, neither is a complete review. Unlike some other users, I don't have an archive of MT and C/D magazines to quote from.
 
http://www.motortrend.com/buyersguide/preowned/112_0503_1998_2003_cadillac_seville_sts

"Which two?".
 
The second one I was referring to is the Escalade. But I may be confusing the definition of a limousine here, as I was intending it to mean "stretch limousine", so my comment may not be valid if you were just talking about short limos.
 
"You nor anyone else has explained how its dragging the brand down. "
 
I was simply correcting your generalization, as opposed to bashing the DTS.
 
edit: content

"Read: They're opinion doesn't match mine, so I'm just going to throw it out the window with an impossible-to-prove generalization. "
 
wrong as usual. I said in my previous post that the 1998 STS was generally well liked by the media so the idea that I am off base by suggesting its not as bad as edmunds said is nonsense. It's a pretty simple idea to grasp. Edmunds.com didnt have a kind word to say about any domestically branded cars in the 90s so saying the STS must have been crap because they didnt endorse it is like saying Obama or Hillary must be incompetent because Fox News doesnt have any kind words to say about them. Thats why its important to survey a wide range of sources before forming an opinion. There was NOT a consensus amongst the automotive press that the STS was crappy.
 
"Seems to me that there are two models, no?"
 
Which two? The DTS is the only Caddy that is sold to fleet customers on a regular basis. Have you seen a lot of STS' or CTS' used as coach cars for execs? I surely havent, nor have I ever seen either vehicle at a rental car lot. I do know some places rented the old CTS but its not common.
 
"Its possible to be the second best selling car and still bring a brand down."
 
You nor anyone else has explained how its dragging the brand down. The fact that you dont like it because its not a RWD sports sedan doesnt mean its dragging the brand down. If the car is selling well and appealing to a wide range of customers and Cadillac's year to date sales are up I would have to say the DTS isnt dragging anything down. But thats just using logic. If the "experts" here say the DTS is crap it must be so.

"I really wouldnt consider their opinion to be worth much when it comes to objectivity. "
 
Read: They're opinion doesn't match mine, so I'm just going to throw it out the window with an impossible-to-prove generalization.
 
"Cadilac has ONE model that sells to fleets in appreciable numbers, the DTS"
 
Seems to me that there are two models, no?
 
BDC: Some of us ACTUALLY didn't see the picture, so good call.
 
"The DTS is CAdillac's 2nd best selling car. I fail to see how its dragging the brand down"
 
Its possible to be the second best selling car and still bring a brand down.

"Anyone with me on our CTS wheels looking undersized and kinda boring?"
 
They are not undersized but they are boring. CAdillac's wheel designs of late have been lacking. The CTS definitely needs better standard 17" rims and 18" rims although the 17s are far worse than the 18s. There are another set of 18s available through the dealer. The last gen CTS actually had better rims at the end of its model run. The Malibu, CTS, Astra, Aura and Impala all have better rims available than the CTS.

bdc,
 
can you post that pointless picture again? some of us didnt see it the first few times you posted it in other blogs. If your point is that some people have bad taste I think we got the message.
 
linard,
 
I dont need help with my facts. I said BMW and Lexus were down and I thought MB was down but I see they are not. Cadillac is up so far this year per media.gm.com. What facts are you correcting me on exactly? The CTS is outselling the ES350, G35 sedan and TL which is pretty impressive to me. I see you totally left out truck sales which is interesting. I said as a BRAND Cadillac is up and BMW and LExus are down so far. Did you disprove that?
 
BTW, According to cars.com 2002 Devilles are selling for $9k-$17k in this area.

"1487, why do you care so much about the media? And other owners? If you like the STS then ok. No one else has to.
  
I agree with Joe...the STS is ok, but the DTS and XLR are now dragging Cadillac down. I hope that their refresh or replacements do the new CTS and the rest of the updated Cadillac lineup justice."
 
The media liked the STS when it was new. C&D and MT gave it very positive reviews. Back in 1998 Edmunds.com hated 90% of the domestic vehicles on the market so I really wouldnt consider their opinion to be worth much when it comes to objectivity. Read some other sources from the time and you will see where I am coming from.
 
The DTS is CAdillac's 2nd best selling car. I fail to see how its dragging the brand down. It has plenty of space and a very nice interior and is competitively priced. The problem is some folks feel that any car that isnt a direct BMW competitor is a "drag" on a brand. cadilalc isnt BMW and they arent trying to be. Once you accept that you will see the value of the DTS.
 
The XLR is so low volume that its not helping or hurting the brand. It is being updated for 2009.

"Second, how much of Cadillac's sales are too limousine companies? Fleets in general? "
 
Cadilac has ONE model that sells to fleets in appreciable numbers, the DTS. When is the last time you saw an STS or Escalade at Enterprise? Give me a break.

Ah Crap! There is that Saturn comparison again! Every post usually contains one Saturn related comment! They should change the name from Inside line to Insecure Line.
 
I doubt if the original owners who bought the car would have held on to their cars until now because they are either dead from old age or they would have enough money that they would not have held on to a car for 10+ years.
 
I demand GM to cut Saturn off! Give it to former makers of Yugos. It was a brand that never really made any sort of impression on me. Even Hyundai is oozing with sex now with new Genesis models. But Saturn? Where is the appeal? Plastic panels? Bwahaha! I would rather drive a car made from maple ham slices. And now I am growing to hate Saturn owners (kinda like SAAB and Volvo owners).

Something else I find interesting...
 
Insurance Institute Summary for Large Luxury Cars
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/datatables.aspx?class=10&type=f
 
For Midsize Luxury Cars
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/datatables.aspx?class=15&type=f
 
Impressive structural rigidity in the new C class but it might be too solid? It's almost as if nothing happens to the passenger compartment except that the steering wheel moves AWAY from you.

linard,
 
what helpful information.
it shows jaguar really needs to get their act together.

1487,
 
Let me help you out with some facts and figures.
 
2008 YTD Sales figures
Mercedes - 57,600 up 3%
Cadillac - (could not locate actual figure) down 1% (from Detroit Free Press)
BMW - 58,635 down 13.4%
 
March 2008 Sales
 
PRE-ENTRY LEVEL
1. Acura TSX - 2,280
2. Volvo S40 - 1,528
3. BMW 1-Series - 1,496
 
ENTRY-LEVEL
1. BMW 3-Series - 11,226
2. Infiniti G - 8,269
3. Mercedes-Benz C-Class - 6,713
4. Cadillac CTS - 6,045
5. Lexus ES - 6,019
6. Lexus IS - 4,798
7. Acura TL - 4,269
8. Audi A4 - 4,061
9. Lincoln MKZ - 3,501
10. Saab 9-3 - 2,133
11. Volvo S60 - 1,243
12. Jaguar X-Type - 46
 
MID-LEVEL
1. BMW 5-Series - 3,667
2. Mercedez-Benz E-Class - 3,039
3. Infiniti M - 1,753
4. Lexus GS - 1,668
5. Volvo S80 - 1,629
6. Cadillac STS - 1,486
7. Jaguar XF - 1,161
8. Audi A6 - 898
9. Acura RL - 548
10. Saab 9-5 - 316
11. Jaguar S-Type - 80
 
FLAGSHIP
1. Lexus LS - 2,125
2. Mercedez-Benz S-Class - 1,622
3. BMW 7-Series - 1,467
4. Audi A8 - 249
5. Jaguar XJ - 218