Detroit's Big Problem: Its Cars Are Never The Best

I'm not sure how true the value argument holds.. it may be partly perception, but at $20k, would you rather get a Chevy or a Honda? at $35k, would you rather get a Caddy or a BMW?

"No American car, from the lowly Ford Focus to the mighty ZR1, is truly the best car in its segment in the world. Not one."

The Wrangler is the best off roader on the market. No other country has something that compares.

The Mustang is the best muscle car.

I'm sure there are more if I think about it for a while.

Wow, the GM fanboys are going to be mad. Really mad.

I, on the other hand, am pretty satisfied.

Certainly a touchy subject but I have to agree with him regarding the Vette. Absolutely outstanding performance car but it just doesnt feel its sticker price, base car to ZR1. The optional "leather dash" just covers up what we all know is underneath. You just dont get that sense of high craftsmanship and that feeling and look is expected from a car of this calibre and price range especially being GMs halo car. It should represent what GM is truly capable of in terms of the complete package not just numbers or value price.

"The Wrangler is the best off roader on the market. No other country has something that compares.

The Mustang is the best muscle car."

I dont think you understand quite where the author is coming from as he really isnt asking for direct comparisons BUT...well its hard to explain.

Regarding the Mustang GT all the way to the GT500KR I can think of a few cars that are in between the GT and GT500KR in price that are much better built, offer much better ALL AROUND performance while being more refined, balanced and technologically advanced. For $80K the GT-R would be one, the Z06 and M3 would be the other 2 vehicles that in my eyes are better than the GT500KR especially considering its asking price as in this price range it needs to do EVERYTHING well and the KR falls seriously short. I really dont think the Mustang was made for this type of performance.

Edmunds apparently feels the same:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=131034?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

The Mustang GT.....Id take a 350Z, Mitsu RalliArt, MazdaSpeed3, 09 WRX and even a Cobalt SS over it without question as they all offer equal or close acceleration #s while offering better handling characteristics as well as refinement. They arent "muscle cars" as you put it but a few of them are priced near the GT while offering a better overall package.

The Jeep Wrangler. Thats a hard one as its pretty much alone in its segment. As far as being the most capable off roader regardless of price...I wouldnt sleep on Land Rover or some of those odd versions of the Toyota Land Cruiser available in parts of the world.

Well, for some time now Mercedes and other Euro brands have had poor reliability in many of their products. That hardly rates calling them "best".

Or is the point of a car to impress its driver for one review, .vs. be something a driver relies on for years as functional as well as fun transportation?

At least the USA is getting serious about competing with the quality and cachet of the imports.

hondaacura4

I agree the term muscle car is tough to define. There are better performing cars for the money but (IMHO) none have the attitude which is more important then the pure numbers (I haven't driven a Challenger yet, it may knock off the Mustang).

There are lots of off roaders that compete with the Wrangler. The FJ, Xtera, H3 and I suppose some overpriced Euro trucks are just some but none come close as a pure off roader. Tops in it segment.

As for where the author is coming from, who knows really?

Like his other posts, this one is just mindless rambling aimed only at provoking an argument.

I would partially agree/partially disagree. While for the most part Detroit is always playing catch-up, I would say that the CTS is far better than being "a lap down". Is it better than the 5 Series and E Class? Maybe, maybe not but it is right up there neck and neck. It just seems whenever they seem to get momentum, they always find a way to knock themselves back down (see story on Kappa II below). If they have a good car, I'm always waiting for it to be canceled in favor of the next SSR. They're making big strides in the big important stuff now, but they're still just not there on the little details, the little things that let you know this car was engineered and designed with a purpose, to be good. And my pet-peeve: while everyone else is focusing on weight reduction and trimming back curb-weight to help with fuel economy and performance, Detroit keeps ballooning their vehicles, blaming safety regs. The same safety regs all the other companies that just cut weight are held to. It's sad, because the American automotive industry was once something for our country to be proud of. American cars were exciting and lust-worthy. That legacy has been squandard, and any surviving management of the Big 3 starting from the '70s ought to be arrested and jailed for that.

"Detroit keeps ballooning their vehicles, blaming safety regs. The same safety regs all the other companies that just cut weight are held to"

Have you seen the new Accord, the new Mazda6, anything German? All car makers are guilty of the same lazy engineering.

I'm going to try to say this in the cleanest way possible:

F**K THAT!

Sure, Detroit's big 3 have a ways to go but to say "I would never buy an America car" is just ignorance.

And they do have some of the best in class. The Malibu is just as good as a Camry or Accord (Edmunds says so), and better than the Altima. Name me a CUV that can comfortably handle 7 adults and more cargo than GM's lambda CUVs? And the CTSis constantly getting raves about being on level with world class competitors like MB and BMW.

I wouldn't say the Edge is the best package, but it's one of the top sellers in the segment. No one will ever outdo Ford in the Truck categor- ever (though that's not very comforting, considering gas prices). And Chrysler has Jeep- no X-terra or Land Rover or FJ Cruiser can outperform a Jeep. No minivan will ever outsell Chrysler's either.

Allright, so maybe GM is the only one of the three really bringing out the competitive cars, but all three have come a long way in a short time. And soon they will be on level with everyone else.

Ok, let's say for a minute that you're right and that American cars are consistantly a lap behind, or a notch lower than German/Japanese/Korean competitors. I'm willing to concede that Ford's engines are seriously underpowered, Chrysler's build quality is down and some GM's have cheapo interiors. I'll give you that and say you're right.

You're also right that overall, the only better value you can find would be in a Hyundai or Kia. Ferrari performance for half (or less depending on the model) the price? That's more than enough reason to consider a Corvette or Viper. And there's little that can top a Mustang GT or Challenger R/T in a performance to cost ratio. Maybe some people are tired of that fact just being handed out on a spoon - that doesn't make it less true.

I can see where you are coming from, sir (in fact I am quite an enthusiast of German cars); but fact is fact. The Chevy Malibu is possibly the best car in the segment - at the least it's in the top three and that's out of over a dozen vehicles in that segment. Just because maybe one car is better by, say, one or two points in a comparison test by the automotive press does not mean it's an inferior car. At that point the buying decision becomes a matter of personal preference.

Ok, so if you want the very, very best under any and all circumstances no matter what come hell or high water, then go ahead and buy a German or Japanese car as you see fit - I won't condemn you. That's your preference and you are welcome to it. As for me? Yeah, I like the German cars, but in the end, I still buy American. There's just something an American that appeals to me that I can't understand.

lol nice try mechanic but i think your i hate hybrid story gave you a bigger paycheque, keep on hatin!

I going to say the author hit the nail on the head...for the most part. There are some domestic products, namely the CTS-V and Corvette, in Z06 and ZR1 guise, that deserve the respect of the European and Japanese competitors. However, anything from FoMoCo is underpowered and beseached with interior cheapness and blah styling. Some mention muscle cars, these cars are easily put to task by Evo's, STI's, and Z's. Finally, as far is luxury offerings, Cadillac is the only domestic that has its toe in to door. The Chevrolet Malibu, is also deserving of some credit, at least it can get out of its own way and has a decent interior, unlike the Avenger or Fusion.

"firstwagon"

alas,The Land Cruiser has been and always is the "hands down" best off-roading machine.Land Rovers are second as well.

How can this article be taken seriously? First of all, the author doesn't even take the time to define what "the best" constitutes. Is it fastest 0-60 time, mpg, NVH levels, lateral acceleration, reliability, design, price, etc?

The truth of the matter is, what constitutes the best changes in the mind of each car buyer. Some value acceleration more than fuel efficiency, a quite ride more than sporty handling, and so on.

On this level, Detroit has been doing very well, since in my book there is no such thing as "the obvious best choice irregardless of whom/where/when the car is being considered." The way to measure success in the auto industry, beside sales, is to be competitive. That means, when a person is interested in buying a luxury sport sedan, they INCLUDE the CTS in their search because they realize it is worthy of being compared to a 3 series. The same is true for the Malibu in the family sedan category and GM's lambda CUVs in the minivan/SUV market.

This article is nothing more than a failed attempt to completely belittle the American auto industry. An equivalent article would be to say that Italy is the absolute best place in the entire world to go on vacation without 1) justifying why and 2)considering the fact that people take all different types of vacations and for different reasons.

I'm FoMoCo and Chrysler aren't getting any money from the consumer anytime soon, with their current offerings. Who buys these vehicles anyway? Offering like the Fusion, Avenger, Mustang, Edge, any Lincoln, they just don't cut it.

To say the least the "Mechanic" must live in on the west coast and has never, ever bought an American branded vehicle in his lifetime. He must be best friends with Dutch Madel of Autoweek. He has the same opinion. Why is that? Why would neither of them ever consider a domestic nameplate? I had the chance to ask Dutch at the Detroit Auto show last year. He told me flat out;

Dutch.. "I would never recommend a domestic brand anything"
Me "Why is that"
Dutch "When Honda, Toyota, BMW, and so on, preveiw a new vehicle, I get a press junket to Spain, Germany, or some other local to drive thier new offering. When Detroit comes out with something new, I get to drive myself about 30 miles to Auburn Hills, Dearborn, or across the street to GM headquaters. Which would you give a better write up?"
Me "I would be impartial and give the better write up to the best vehicle"
Dutch "Well, you're not me"

It seems like the "Mechanic" is not like me either. I'm sure his taste in vehicles cannot be swayed no matter what the Detroit offerings send out. I'm sure he is still wringing from the 77 Pinto he had his freshman year of college. Even though it got him back and forth to school, started every day, the one time he picked up a girl at a frat party it didn't start because he didn't change the fuel filter on it, and never the less, didn't score a homerun that night. Ever since then, every American nameplate will pay the price of Suzy Lipshits walking out on him.

I have owned about thirty vehciles in my 30 years of existance on this earth. Both domestic and imported brands. Here is a sample. Just an unbias opinion of what mark they had left on my driveway:

Used 71 Plymouth Duster... Great reliable car with a slant six. Never gave up. Rusted shock towers at 145k miles.
Used 77 Thunderbird. Great 400 cube engine.
Used 1982 Honda Accord. Rusted out at 58k miles. Fred Flinstone floorboars
Used 1988 Pontiac 6000. good car. Small electrical gremlin that would not unlock the doors when it was cold out.
!994 Dodge Shadow. Drove across the country four times. First new car. My nephew still has it. over 350k miles on it. Same trans and engine.
New 2004 Toyota Camry. Engine blew at 12k miles. Fought with Toyota for six weeks on whose fault it was. They finally came clean with the famous cover up sludge problem.
2006 Honda Odyssey. Two transmissions, doors slides off the track, seat heaters break, rattles, Dvd player skips, leaks oil.
2004 Dodge Ram. No problems. Over 100k miles.

So if I was the "Mechanic" I guess I would say every import brand has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Not to mention long hours of sitting in Import brand waiting rooms, waiting for my vehciles to be fixed right. Personally, I would not consider any import brand again, due to the past experience I've had. But I'm sure the "Mechanic" has never had to deal with the morons at a Honda dealership. Or the service manager of the Toyota dealership the tells you "they all do that". No. Probably not. But I'm sure the "Mechanic" can tell you what came in the Lexus goodie bag at the preview at Pebble Beach last year.

The "Mechanic" is suffering from what I would call a little case of the "BIASNESS".

i AM a GM fanboy and I think you're right. but i don't think you give gm enough credit, because while they're not there yet, the gap (or, the lap, as you put it) is closing. with the cts licking at the heels of the 5-series and the cts-v "out-everything'ing" the M5 (insideline review, not my opinion)gm is a couple years away from being on par with the best. and thats a HUGE accomplishment if you look at gm's lineup from a few years ago.

ps. the merc black edition CANT be compared to the ZR-1. In order to compare vehicles, you have to compare prospective buyers. the black is a track car, and most likely a 5th car. the zr-1 can easily be an upper-class person's daily driver.

I wish the GT8 or CTS did it for me. I want a RWD sedan again after a short hiatus. Sadly I think that means 3 series.

Americans believe that building a bigger size, bigger engine and bigger cylinders and bigger everything = better cars...that's not true.

Any serious racer will choose a Porsche gt3 rs over any Vette zr1 or r2d2.....just an example.

They have the best military on earth but when it comes to transfer military technology to cars...there is no transfer.

The truth is the oil industry have been controling the car industry in the US for ever. They have been drinking oil for so many years while in Japan in Europe, the need ( for higher mileage cars since gas is more expensive) create the technology years back.

The problem is too big and there is so many $$$ involved that the solutions is to sell their cars in Asia or India mostly and always cater to the american who will always buy american because is american...declining market. Gm sells more cars in Asia than in the US....that's why it is not finished yet.

The next stage is tell the blue collar people in Michigan to build batteries for the Chevy volt and the next generation of "supercars"...come on give me a break...

My last car I owned in Europe, was a Nissan Almera 2.2 DI ( direct diesel injection)..this is 2001...the car game me around 50 mpg....

Okay pompous college boy, do you know your history and economics? For example: how did the "Japanese Miracle" occur, following WWII? Simple answer: a strict policy of mercantilism (referred to as neo-mercantilism since we're not strictly speaking of bullion). The basic idea is to encourage exports, discourage imports, and generally make sure that more money is ultimately flowing into the country than out.

Mercantilism is exactly what has not been happening in this country for fifty years, fueled (in part) by a (perhaps) mistaken belief that the imports are necessarily better. For example: for most of the US, cornering gs and steering communication do not matter. Most of the US population doesn't live on a mountain road, but on one of our many long and pock-marked roads. Our roads aren't narrow, so why not have a spacious cabin? European roads are narrow, twisty, and the taxes on engine size and gas are incredible. Therefore, of course handling is important for their small and underpowered cars. Here, I would rather drive a Buick than a FIAT any day. However, after WWII, the Mercedes and the Jaguars that had been idolized, but not driven, in the 30s became within reach of Americans, and the European cars came to define what a car should be in minds that had already decided.
Our American manufacturing empire has been in decline ever since.

The Mechanic's opinions really are just voicing of a detrimental mindset that has persisted far too long. People in Korea and Japan have bought their nation's products (for decades far inferior) for years out pride and duty. The car is the 3rd most expensive product most people have (after children and their homes), how about making sure that that money ends up in the hands of American blue and white collared workers. How about buying a roughly equivalent American product to keep our country from being a decadent shadow of its former self?

Finally in response to your last point, the fact that there is something doing the questioning, something thinking, makes it impossible for me to believe that I do not exist. Your existence though, I'm free to doubt.

I think there is definite truth to this article. No American brand seems to have that "aspirational" product. A vehicle that you somewhat irrationally desire to have. A car you fantasize about driving and that makes you go ahh when you see it driving around. Now that probably doesn't apply to everyday import brands like Honda or Volkswagen (I mean, do we really dream about driving the Accord or Passat?), but they make up by offerings from their luxury marques, like Acura, Audi, Lexus, etc. Of course, in defense of the Detroit, we can consider something like the Vette, but ultimately, people don't dream about compromises. They dream about all out perfection.

Having an "aura" product is not only important for the obvious psychological reasons, but also for platforms and shared parts/technologies. When Toyota strives to create a buttery smooth engine for a Lexus, knowledge gained from that effort invariably trickles down to a lowly Toyota sedan.

American brands seem to fail in this regard. They just don't go over and beyond to create something spectacular, probably because they feel that it's not necessary. Such feelings have proven to be foolish, but they may well have been warranted considering that they are giants in this largest and most important market for automobiles. So while all the foreign companies work the extra hours to produce cars that can take a bit more market share, the domestic brands almost begrudgingly attempted to follow the imports' lead. Take the Ford Taurus. Once a perennial best seller, but eventually allowed to languish and die, as Ford couldn't be bothered to compete with Accord and Camry.

Of course, Ford resurrected Taurus, as a part of recent move among American car makers to rescue.. uh.. reinvigorate their product lines. But so far, it has been too little, too late. When companies like Hyundai make solidly impressive advances at each product update, their efforts so far have been largely disappointing.

Still, developing a product as complex as a car takes several years of R&D, and it would be naive to think that Detroit can trump German and Japanese marques in just a couple of product years. I just hope that they really do keep at it. It'd be a real shame to see them fail with all the resources that they have.

let the brand die, essentially ceding the important mid-size sedan market to competitors.

They never seem to go all-out to create something really great, and this mentality seems to

"The Wrangler is the best off roader on the market. No other country has something that compares."

If you watch Discovery or CNN any time recently, the only cars (or trucks) you see in the edges of the world are Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Land Rover. No, I am sorry; I am afraid I can't find a Wrangler anywhere but America.

but but they have displacement :(

4.0 liters making 210 horses with 240 lbs. tq.

that's horrible... they don't engineer there engines, they make cars with power using more displacement...

while car manufacturers are getting closer to the 100 hp per liter mark we see people praising the mustang to the the "best muscle car" in the entire world.

get over yourselves... I don't understand why they just dont pay toyota engineers and honda engineers to come over and make them a new car.

I think the Mechanic met his goal by stirring the pot and getting most of you worked up.

I've never been fond of American cars, but have been impressed with the latest offerings in most segments. I even almost bought into a Saturn VUE because of it's perceived quality and value argument.

Alas, I stuck with the Germans for another 48 months, and while I might not have bought into a more reliable vehicle, nor did I buy the most economical or value-oriented, but I bought the car that stirred my emotions and hit the right buttons for ME. That's what it's all about, right? Automobiles are an emotional purchase for the most part, certainly not logical given the increase in sales of hybrids and the multitude of fact-backed arguments given against that decision.

Regardless, I think Detroit's big problem is not necessarilly that their current cars are "a lap down", I think the problem is deeper than that. It delves into WHY they are playing catch up, and that circles around product management. Their biggest problem NOW is the decade+ spent focusing on large SUV and truck offerings, while letting their car lineups stagnate. Ostensibly, this proved profitable in the shorthaul, but is proving detrimental now with the current economic climate.

Given that situation, I think the Domestic manufacturers have actually done very well with refining and improving their car offerings over a relatively short time period, and are still on the up-slope of that curve. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether they reach the pinnacle of quality before they file chapter 11.

firstwagon,

It is hilarious for you to say the Mustang is the best muscule car when comparing cars b/w American vs. Japanese and Germans. Because obviously, the Japanese and Germans don't build any muscule car!

I think this article hit the spot. Detriot is always playing catch-up. That's why none of them can sustain long period of profitability.

Sure the Malibu is great, but it's only as good as the Accord/Camry/Altima.

Sure the CTS is great, but it's only as good as BMW 3s/Lexus IS/Infiniti G/Audi A4.

And everyone else is still catching up to Toyota's Prius hybrid hype.

And really, if you have to put out your own wallet, would you buy a CTS-V over a M5 or a M3 even?

The Volt is the only vehicle that's breaking the frontier.

I left buying American cars in the early 70's. My last was a Camero SS396. After that all the American cars turned to junk. Anybody remember GM's infamous diesel cars? Cost's more but worthless. The public sure got shafted on that one. Purchase my first Datsun 510 and never looked back. I always thought that when you spent big bucks to buy a car you should be able drive it with out in being in the shop all the time. What good is a fancy car with all the amenities to you when you can't drive it. They should have been focusing on quality not adding additional amenities. My current car is a Prius...drives great and gets excellent MPG. I am waiting for Honda to starting selling their new Prius look alike next year and I will get that for my wife. The American auto makers still continue to put out high power cars but with today's fuel costs even if they are well made the average Joe can not afford to drive them. GM's Volt will cost almost $40K out of reach for the average family.

I left buying American cars in the early 70's. My last was a Camero SS396. After that all the American cars turned to junk. Anybody remember GM's infamous diesel cars? Cost's more but worthless. The public sure got shafted on that one. Purchase my first Datsun 510 and never looked back. I always thought that when you spent big bucks to buy a car you should be able drive it with out in being in the shop all the time. What good is a fancy car with all the amenities to you when you can't drive it. They should have been focusing on quality not adding additional amenities. My current car is a Prius...drives great and gets excellent MPG. I am waiting for Honda to starting selling their new Prius look alike next year and I will get that for my wife. The American auto makers still continue to put out high power cars but with today's fuel costs even if they are well made the average Joe can not afford to drive them. GM's Volt will cost almost $40K out of reach for the average family.

Idiotic commentary for the simple minded. You can basically predict who is going to agree with this and who is not. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy, it has everything to do with applying common sense. Saying money shouldnt be a factor when determining which vehicles are the best is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. If that be the case car magazines might as well start doing midsize sedan comparos that pit the 550i vs the Malibu or Sonata. The 5 series is a better car than the Malibu but I don't know that I am impressed by the fact that BMW can sell me a nice car for $50k. A nice car at $25k is far more impressive.

I see there was no mention of pickups or full size trucks in the tirade. The Tundra came out last year and by this fall it will be the 3rd or 4th best truck on the market. With all their resources Toyota couldnt even deliver a Tundra that trounced the 2007 Silverado, much less the 2009 F150 or Ram. Both of the new 2009 trucks pack more features, versatility and interior quality than the Toyota and GM has had the Tundra beat on efficiency since day one. There was also no mention of 7 passenger crossovers and I guess that was intentional. It's hard to justify your ridiculous position when the GM crossovers are best in class from a hp, space, interior design and versatility standpoint.

"The American auto makers still continue to put out high power cars but with today's fuel costs even if they are well made the average Joe can not afford to drive them. "

The 2009 Aura/Malibu deliver better mileage than Camry, Accord and Sonata. The 2010 Fusion will surpass those cars as well. The 2009 Cobalt gets 37mpg on the highway which is more than the Civic, Fit and corolla. There are affordable fuel efficient domestic products on the market. Get the facts straight.

"And really, if you have to put out your own wallet, would you buy a CTS-V over a M5 or a M3 even? "

Yes.

What you fail to understand is that NO ONE can leapfrog the competition while maintaining a competitive price point. Do you think it's a coincidence that almost every luxury sedan sold today has similar hp and features?

give me a break. The Accord is "only" as good as the Malibu or Altima. Don't expect Detroit to work miracles when the Japanese can't even work them. Any advantage that any automaker has is typically erased within one or two years as new competitors join the market. It doesnt matter if you're Toyota or Ford, you will be caught within a few years.

So is the Mechanic Edmunds' rendition of the Stig?

I find it funny he's driving a Nissan 240SX in the pic.

I would agree that American cars are still perceived as a lap down, but I think it's mostly image (Chrysler excluded). The problem is image is the hardest lap to get back.

"get over yourselves... I don't understand why they just dont pay toyota engineers and honda engineers to come over and make them a new car. "

Because they probably havent been impressed by some of their recent efforts. Honestly, do you feel the Accord, camry and Pilot are examples of brilliance in engineering? I sat in the 2009 Corolla at the auto show and it was painfully obvious Toyota hadn't spent any time in the 3 or any competing compact when developing the mediocre corolla. In fact, the car is so similar to the old one they should've just skipped the redesign.

I have never purchased an American made car and I am 42-years old. I have owned a 2 Maxima's, 3 Hyundai's and 3 Honda's. All were outstanding cars and owed me nothing when I traded them. So, you can see that I am not a domestic die-hard. BUT.

I'd definitely buy a Caddy CTS-V a G8 and a just might buy a Tahoe Hybrid when I am ready with for a new business truck.

As far as 'best in segment' bull***t, who friggin cares. I like what I like and I don't care what some rag says about it being the best. I do have a mind that isn't owned by a wife or significant other or the professional idiots who think they know more what I like than I like. I tend to think I know more anyway. I'm done.

""firstwagon"

alas,The Land Cruiser has been and always is the "hands down" best off-roading machine.Land Rovers are second as well. "

You mean they were (in some peoples opinion). Maybe somewhere in the world they still have versions that are but not here.

Both the Land Cruiser and Land Rover versions we get in North America are designed to be luxury image mobiles first and off roaders second.

"I sat in the 2009 Corolla at the auto show and it was painfully obvious Toyota hadn't spent any time in the 3 or any competing compact when developing the mediocre corolla."

The Cobalt, Focus, and Caliber aren't really anything special either, and I think that's part of the point of the article.

So in The Mechanic's little, well defined, category, American Cars aren't the best. Even with that, there's the exception of trucks. If you define the categories a little different, American cars might qualify, but The Mechanic doesn't want to do that.

This person gets big checks for what reason? Wait, I know. This person's purpose here is effectively the equivalent of a troll. The only difference is that he/she is a troll inserted by Edmunds. Kinda like that really bad "reality" show.

Is there an engine in the 200HP range better (performance, economy, torque band etc) than the Audi's 2.0T? Or in the 300HP range better than BMW's 3.0 twin-turbo? And I don't mean just numbers.

I won't even get to DSG transmission. There is just no competition.

For the record, I drive a 2007 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2007 VW GTI after having 10 american cars (GM, Ford and Chrysler). So you can't criticize me for speaking without knowing.

P.S. I recently had to drive a 2007 PT Cruiser. My 4-speed 1979 Mercedes 230E was way better.

"The Cobalt, Focus, and Caliber aren't really anything special either, and I think that's part of the point of the article."

The Corolla is 3 years newer than the Cobalt. It should be better and aside from mileage it's not. That's my point. Why didn't he mention pickups, large crossovers, SUVs, etc.? Probably because the domestic offerings are superior. Even within the midsize sedan category the best in class car is highly debatable. the only thing we can say is that Domestic brands are trailing in the compact car and high end luxury segments.

His commentary on the Z06 is beyond absurd. The GTR is 3 years newer than the Z06 and should be better. He also said it's faster which is a flat out lie. It's faster to 60mph and that's where it ends. The Z06 was the best reasonably priced sports car for 3 years. Nothing lasts forever in this industry because of the competitive nature.

"For the record, I drive a 2007 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2007 VW GTI after having 10 american cars (GM, Ford and Chrysler). So you can't criticize me for speaking without knowing."

I can. GM's naturally aspirated V6 makes more power than the BMW twin turbo and is as powerful as competing motors from Lexus and Acura. The Europeans lead the Japanese and Americans when it comes to transmissions. Domestics are pulling ahead of the Japanese when it comes to 6 speeds however and Ford/Chrysler are working on DGS's for mass consumption. Meanwhile there has been no word of any mainstream Japanese brands adopting DSGs in large numbers. GM's turbo four is amongst the best in the business and outpowers Audi's 2L iron block turbo. GM's top V8s cant be touched by anyone except MB. Ford's 3.5L turbo V6 will outpower every other V6 on the market. Even Chrysler has done some good things with the 2009 HEMI that mathches the specific output of the Toyota 5.7L DOHC V8.

For the record the PT Cruiser is a 6 or 7 year old product that starts out under $20k. It's hardly state of the art american carmaking.

Both those engines require premium fuel. If your goal is low operating costs, neither is a good choice. Turbo longevity is another concern - we don't have long-term data.

I test drove a 2009 A4 V6 Quattro and it was nice but it was $48,000, so I'd say the value of the German cars has eroded tremendously lately.

The BMW 3 series interior is bland and boring, possibly worst in the near-lux class, and the I-drive interface has the worst ergonomics. The CTS interior puts BMW to shame, twice as big and twice as nice.

Euro car are certainly not without fault. Giving them a pass for being cramped inside or grossly overpriced is bias.

Sure, they handle wonderfully, which is easy when they're smaller so they can weigh less, and cost tons more so they can use exotic alloys.

I think the concept of "price no object" is ludicrous, and that's where he really lost me. You have to compare cars for a certain budget, i.e. in the same price class.

VW can't get a sedan here for under $17k, while everyone else can build a car for less. The Germans just have the worst cost structures. Until recently their 2.5l engine only made a paltry 150hp.

How many of us with a mortgage can truly echo the author's words, "Screw Price"? Please.

Sure, Detroit has its problems, but there are some bright spots as well, many mentioned above.

Pick any country, and we could tear them apart. The author picked on the USA, and I just picked on Germany. Anyone could do the same for Japan or Korea, too.

And I like German cars, that's the funny part. Best? In some ways, for certain priorities, sure. Best value? Best price? Best TCO? Best ride and isolation?

None of the above.

"The Wrangler is the best off roader on the market. No other country has something that compares."

That used to be true before Auburn Hills came out with that pansy-ass JK nonsense.

Now, my money's in the FJ Cruiser. That's made by Toyota in Japan last time I checked.

Yes, I've driven both off-road. The FJ's better.

Wow. Strong article my friend. I have to agree that in most cases the American's are a step behind other car makes .. but that its not always a problem.

There is a few points I must make about subjectivity though. #1 I'll cite the CTS, personally I think it's one of the best looking car's on the road today. Yes, this is my opinion but one cannot argue that sedans from Japan are a little sterile... i.e. boring. Then the Germans make a fine car yes, but suffer from their own caveats - such as I Drive or Sterile, illogical interior. I mean seriously. Malibu, Enclave - same thing. The only japanese company who gets it is Mazda.

BTW Sir, I cite your own companies Long Term Test - which states that your GT-R has been in the dealership many times. A gas leak? Wow. That really is unacceptable in any vehicle, let alone a 85k monster. A standard corvette is still half the cost of a GT-R and has some damned impressive numbers @ that. Sure it doesn't have the fancy 4 wheel drive system .. but let's see who will be crying when they get the repair bill for that same 4 wheel drive system when it malfunctions after warranty. The whole damn car is a computer... there is a reason computers don't run the world : )

OH, then there is cost of ownership. No matter how you cut it, no matter who you talk to, American cars are cheaper to own. Cheaper to insure and certainly cheaper to fix if something goes wrong. I cite my sisters experience with her 2002 740IL .. 3 window regulators went out, each costing her 850 bucks. That's ridiculous! This trend, while not to such a degree, also is true for Japanese cars too. The parts come from far away and it simply costs more to get them here.

Lastly, I must make the point that "perceived quality" is at fault for most of the trend towards German/Japanese vehicles. GM is in the middle of a renaissance and no one is noticing because we all THINK GM is crap. Please, drive a Malibu LTZ V-6 and then drive an Accord EX-L and tell me the reasons why you would pay 3-4k more for it... I couldnt find any! I don't want to hear the navigation thing either. I can spend 400 and get a GARMIN 6 inch touch screen portable unit anyways and still save 2600-3600 dollars.

Think about it.

Detroit has 3 big problems, which all reinforce each other:

1 - The brand is damaged, so they can't command top price, so they have less to invest, perenially lose money. It matters little if the CTS is on par with the 5-series/M5. Unless you are over 65 or part of the black urban culture, you won't want to be caught dead in one. It has no image/desireability factor.

2 - Their platforms suck. Look at BMW with killer RWD platforms from the 128i to the new 750i, engines like the 3.0L 300-326HP twin-turbo L6 and the 400+HP twin turbo V8 and the twin turbo diesels. NOT just ONE RWD platform, not just ONE good engine like the CTS-V, but good platforms on ALL pruducts, up and down. Transmissions? What transmissions? Look at the 7-speed Mercedes transmission or the ZF-sourced ones on BMWs - there is nothing in Detroit that comes close.

3 - They are constantly trying to avoid the meat of the market to come up with niches where they can play alone for a while. It is pickups, it is minivans, it is SUVs, it is horribly handling and cheap interios pony cars. Detroit hasn't been competitive in the meat of the sedan market for eons. What lineup competes with civic/accord or corola/camry or BMW 3/5/7 series or Mercedes C/E/S class or Audi A4/6/8? An ocasional great point product like CTS accomplishes little, just like an ocasional bad product from BMW, Mercedes, Honda does little damage. People are smarting up - there is just too many choices to choose fith best in a segment. If you want a $20K sedan you have Accord, Camry, Altima/Maxima, Mazda 6, etc... why would you buy a Malibu? If you want a $50K sedan you have A6/5-series/E-class/Lexus GS/Jaguar XF, why would you buy a CTS?

So I agree with most of what Mechanic said, but he is wrong on Detroit not being best on any segment.

The Traverse/Enclave/Acadia is the absolute best $30K 7/8 pax spacius crossover in the world. Period. CX-9 comes closest but is pricier and less roomy. Those, currently are the ONLY Detroit products I'd consider buying.

As for the Mustang - come on!!!! A bouncy live-axle rear suspension???!!!??? Top line mannufacturers haven't used anything other than fully independent rear suspensions in 20 years. The 4.6L V8 produces less power than some 4cyl German engines.

The Mustang is a joke.

AJ

"How many of us with a mortgage can truly echo the author's words, "Screw Price"? Please."

You're missing the point. Being the "best" is never about "price." It never has been, and never will be. "Value" is not part of the equation. The only thing that matters is being "best."

He's not talking to you. He's talking to those who can afford top-ticket cars. This is not a "middle class" discussion, or a discussion that the middle-class can relate to or easily understand.

edmunds big problem: Its contributors aren't the best/brightest ethier. And some are just classless tools.

"The Cobalt, Focus, and Caliber aren't really anything special either, and I think that's part of the point of the article."

The corolla is new for 2009, the cobalt is 4 years old. I would hope the corolla would be superior. Caliber is a Dodge and the Focus is a restyling of an 8 year old car. I fail to understand why people embrace mediocrity from Toyota and then turn around and say anything but a world beater from detroit is a disgrace.

want to know what really kills detroit? a 3-letter word --> UAW. unions today are not like unions of the yesteryear. greed, inefficient, and overly demanding are their slogans today. it doesn't matter how good a car gm builds. if they have to sell cars for losses, they will never recover. meanwhile, the korean, japanese, chinese, and practically everyone else is taking market shares from us.

Best in what category, though? Performance, is my guess.

What about comfort?

What about ergonomics?

What about interior design?

What about interior space?

Even if we do put on blinders and ignore price entirely, BMW still has plenty of room for improvement. The ride is stiff, ergonomics are poor, iDrive is maddening. A $200 Garmin GPS puts their Nav system to shame. The 1-series and 3-series feel cramped next to a CTS.

The article was posted on Edmunds, so I thought the audience was Edmunds members, but even if it is the truly rich, you'd still have to define and categorize what you want.

They perform well overall, but they make lots of compromises, even if you overlook cost.

"Their platforms suck. Look at BMW with killer RWD platforms from the 128i to the new 750i, engines like the 3.0L 300-326HP twin-turbo L6 and the 400+HP twin turbo V8 and the twin turbo diesels. NOT just ONE RWD platform, not just ONE good engine like the CTS-V, but good platforms on ALL pruducts, up and down. Transmissions? What transmissions? Look at the 7-speed Mercedes transmission or the ZF-sourced ones on BMWs - there is nothing in Detroit that comes close."

Lots of ignorance on display here. BMW outsourced transmissions to BMW and GM so I dont get how you can praise them for being ahead of the game on that front. On top of that MB, not BMW is using 7 speed autos. The new 7 series is launching with a 6 speed auto just like the one found in a $24k Malibu.

The sigma, zeta and lambda platforms are all recent and that's just GM.

BMWs twin turbo V8 makes less power than the supercharged northstar or the LSa/LS9. In fact, it only makes slightly more hp than the LS3.

"they will never recover. "

do some research. New wage rates take effect in 2010. UAW workers will make less than workers in Toyota/Honda plants in the US. The Big 3 are phasing out all their highly paid line workers with buyout packages. Also, the labor cost of a car is a fraction of it's total price.

"Detroit hasn't been competitive in the meat of the sedan market for eons."

Who seels more midsize sedans, GM or Honda or Nissan? Get your facts straight. You are confusing nameplate sales with overall sales. The Japanese dominate from a nameplate perspective but GM sells more midsize cars than Honda and Nissan. Probably Toyota as well.

"Top line mannufacturers haven't used anything other than fully independent rear suspensions in 20 years. "

another lie. VW and Nissan were using such suspensions within the last 10 years. read up on the Passat, Jetta and Maxima. Maxima got an IRS when it was redesigned for 2004. The corolla still uses a beam axle as well. Do you know anything about cars?

"BMW outsourced transmissions to BMW and GM"

I meant to say "ZF", not BMW. I just want to know how there is "nothing close" to the trannies offerd in BMW models when you can get a 6 speed in everything from the Malibu to the Flex to the 2009 Escape to the CTS.

Somebody hit it on the head when they said American cars suffer from an image problem. I would also say that American offerings have some serious styling deficiencies. Forget all the numbers, if you were to compare cars in a segment you will find them to all have similar numbers. Problem is, American offerings just don't stir me. Do I want a clean looking Corolla or an ugly chrome grill having Focus? Would I want a bland Cobalt SS or Sporty looking WRX? Do I want a grandma Aveo or an edgy Scion? Sleek beautiful Ferrari or clunky looking corvette ? Mustang GT500kr that looks just like the entry level mustang or do I want a GTR that looks like nothing else on the road? Sorry folks, but American cars just don't move the soul when compared to other cars in their segment regardless of how similar their price, performance numbers, efficiency, etc are. As for the Malibu claim, sure might be on par with the Camry and Accords but the Camry and Accords have a SOLID track record and Honda/Toyota have built the branding on these models for years. So given the choice do I want something with a good track record or a 1 hit wonder? Again, an image problem. Sadly, American automakers know what moves people in other markets just not here for some reason. Where is the sporty Focus RS? How about some of the Holden offerings? The Comodore SV6 and SS are sexy beasts. The Australian Ford Falcon is a nice car, I would buy that. That being said, I want to buy a Holden not a Pontiac. I want to buy a Vauxhall or Opel not a Saturn. They may be the same cars but bringing these vehicles here without rebadging can give them a sense of exoticness. So I would say Detroit's biggest problem is one of branding , marketing and styling more than anything else..

I drive an 2005 F350 superduty and an 2006 Acura TL, american cars suck, (the last TL /Legend went 350k before I got tired of it) a buddy bought a cadillac, on top of it being a depreciation hog, It's a P O S. fit and finish is terible, my dad drives Lincoln, POS
Please do not even try to compare with Jap or German products
All they have to do is build a muscle car and sell it at a fair price, not $25k-$40k over msrp and they could keep the companies a float.

I blame the union environment on killing the attitude of the american worker and the 50 yr old benefit packages that are killing the companies.
Bolting up a motor can not possibly earn enough $$$ for a company to entitle a worker to 30 yrs of pension and paid medical
Do the Math, we let the good times roll and now we are greedy pigs choking in a world economy

Solid Axles and Leaf Springs are the culprits when you're talking about Mustangs and Corvettes, repectively. Ford had a chance to continue along with it's IRS set up it had in the previous version of the Cobra, and decided not to do so. So, while the ZR-1 and the KR and astonishing in the engine department, you get nothing but wheel hop and oversteer.

The interiors are the biggest culprits in the decline of American Automotive dominance. it has been at least 20 years since an American car had an interior that was interesting and relavant. How is it that the interior on a 25k VW GTI can be far more appealing in EVERY way than the interior on a 100k ZR-1?

Plastic, plastic, plastic. To compare the swtiches and buttons in a 2009 VW to a 2009 Corvette is like comparing the feel of a $100 casio keyboard to a Steinway. Shouldn't it be the other way around.

I'd happily plunk down cash for a Challenger, Mustang, or even a G8 if the interiors were better than the competition. The G8 got close, but that center digital guage form the 80's KILLS it.

I'd just like to start by saying that I myself have owned American(Dodge,Jeep), Japanese(EvoIXMR), & German(Porsche), and can say that I totally agree with the author.
I believe Detroit/Dearborn should stop focusing on "Bargain" and start focusing on "quality".
When you consider that 85% of a rental car company's fleet is comprised of American cars(ex. Corvettes,Mustangs,Cadillacs,etc), it makes customers realize just how poorly crafted some of those cars really are. I think the authors comparison of the Z06 & the GTR is spot on. Nissan developed the car to go head to head with some of the best supercars for only $80k, which puts the Z06 out of the question when comparing overall quality/performance.
Has noticed that the best quality American cars are actually built elsewhere?
Take for example a Pontiac GTO AKA Holden Commodore(Built in Australia). Sit inside one and you will immediately notice the upscale leather and dashboard materials. It sold for a little over $32K(I think), had 350HP LS1/400HP LS2, and offered great comfort. Didn't do well in sales because of the mis-use of the GTO name with original GTO purists beliefs. Anyway, getting side-tracked here.

Im all for American cars. In my line of work, I have driven everything from Ferraris(360s,430s,550s,575s,355s,etc), Vipers(GTSs,SRT10s), Corvettes(C5s,C6s,Z06s),BMWs(M3s,M5s,M6s,Z8s,etc, Mercs(SL55/65s,SL56s/too many to name),Lamborghinis(Diablos,Murcialagos,Gallardos,),etc. So in other words, I have a pretty good understanding of these cars differ from one another in terms of quality, performance, & price. I have nothing against any of them and hope to never see any of them stop making cars. They all have their own "thing" about them that make each and every one of them unique and special. But I REALLY do hope that Chrysler, GM, & Ford step up their game because they ARE falling behind and have some catching up to do.
I suggest maybe making an alliance with the Europeans & Japanese in the developing department.
Ford looks like they're FINALLY communicating with their European division and going to be bringing over some of their Ford Euro models that have been years ahead of ours.
Whoa, getting side-tracked again.
I'll stop now.

P.S
Getting back to the Wrangler comments some of you guys are making: I currently own a new '08 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited(JK 4door) that I purchased back in April of this year. It is a great off-roader and has greatly improved as far as comfort & ride compared with its previous models.
Sure there are others that compete in the same segment like the Toyota FJ Cruiser, Nissan Xterra, Hummer H2, etc. But if you, like me, actually "off-road" your SUV , you'll notice that there is nothing that even comes close to a wrangler. The H1 is a good candidate, but is no longer being produced and isn't even near it's price-range. It belongs with the Land Rovers and Land Cruisers which in recent times have become so big and heavy, they aren't what they used to be.
The Jeep Wrangler is a true American icon that, I can truely say, has it's competitors in the dust.

flwind,

If you think Toyota and Honda are the leaders in terms of design than I feel sorry for you. You have got to be kidding if you think the corolla is a design people find inspirational. I'd rather have an Aura, Fusion or Malibu than a camry from a styling perspective. I'd rather have an Acadia or flex than a blocky pilot. I'd rather have a CTS than ANY Acura or Lexus car. domestic designs are improving over time while most Asian car design seems stuck in neutral.

AJ

"Best in what category, though? Performance, is my guess"

Anytime you put qualifiers on "best" you are limiting it.

Maybe I'm expanding the discussion a bit here, but when I say "best," I mean BEST! And part of that also has to do with status, image as well as exclusivity.

While it can be argued, when you add qualifiers (categories), that America does make some "best" models. However, when you include status, image as well as exclusivity as part of the equation, American cars don't hold a candle to some international brands.

While we've done okay on the sports car front, American has not made a car to compete with the likes of Rolls-Royce, Bentley, etc. in perhaps 80 years; the last being Duesenberg, back in the 1930s.

Now it could be argued that Rolls, etc. aren't such great vehicles, but to many who can afford them, they are considered the "best" cars in the world.

"How about some of the Holden offerings?"

The G8 is a Holden. I wont get into the specifics of why different cars are sold in Europe but rest assured there are MANY reasons. I dont understand why people think you can simply ship over European products unchanged and sell them here successfully.

"The interiors are the biggest culprits in the decline of American Automotive dominance. it has been at least 20 years since an American car had an interior that was interesting and relavant."

You must not follow current events. And by the way who are you holding up as the benchmark in interior design? Toyota? Have you seen the interiors of the corolla, Avalon, FJ Cruiser, Yaris, any Scion model, etc? The Tundra is also a disgrace. The interiors of the Flex, CTS, Enclave, SRX, STS, Malibu, Astra, etc. are top notch. As for leaf springs, you should note the Vetter has an IRS and has a transverse leaf spring which isnt the same set up that is used on pickups. There is nothing simple about the Vette's suspension componentry and to suggest otherwise only betrays your lack of knowledge. The Mustang is a totally different animal and it's one of the only American cars (other than compacts) that lacks IRS.

I dunno, I just feel like for automotive writers there's just a rule that to be respected you have to like the sportiest cars the most, hence the love affair with BMW.

I hear your 4th paragraph loud and clear, but *should* Detroit even aim for those goals?

VW built the phenomenal Phaeton, and bled tons of red ink doing so. How good it was simply didn't matter - it bombed.

Rolls and Bentley all failed and were bought out by mainstream brands that sold more volume. You still wonder if they ever really turn a profit for their owners.

If that's what the mechanic means by being the best, perhaps it's a good thing GM doesn't try.

I am in total agreement with the whole image thing. A car must "move" you before you give it a second thought about purchase. I have to admit the new Malibu cant be ignored. Sadly enough, thats the first time it's ever happend with the Malibu. That looks like a one hit wonder so far to me. Did anybody mention to "1487" that GM uses Isuzu motors that are imported? And how can this guy say that the GT-R is only faster in the 0-60 and nothing else. GM didnt produce a car that could lap Nurburgring in under 8 minutes until almost 10 years after Japn did! (Nissan Skyline R33 V-Spec, 1997, 7 minutes 59 seconds) Remember the new GT-R is a BASE MODEL GT-R and the ZR-1 is a "top of the line" Corvette. Its pretty sad when the lowest model of one car leaves the top model of another doubting it's own capabilities. Another fact is you dont look at all those numbers until the car has caught your attention, or "moved" you. If you havent noticed BMW is already redesigning the 5-series. So the M5 that the CTS-V is beeting is already old news. If you can recall, the Z-Tune GTR is older than the Z06 and it ran a 10 sec 1/4 mile in stock form. When has the Corvette ever done that? And what's up with that clear plastic hood and those huge goofy chrome wheels? You cant find a Corvette enthusiest that would agree with the look of the ZR-1. Dont get me wrong. The Corvette is a great car. . . for GM. But no other manufacturer would dare to fabricate such a monstrosity of carbon fiber. Dont forget that imports have been using carbon fiber as a stock material since the 90's. Again proving that the Amaerican big 3 are still 1 lap behind.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

Here's something that trumps everything you just said (which I agree with 100%):

I would rather die than walk into a domestic car dealership.

These guys can put out the finest cars available but the thought of dealing with the sales people in these places sends shivers down my spine. Some of these guys are the typical alpha male, comb over, polyester suit wearing sales people from the 60's - 80's.

I would pay a premium for the overall ownership experience and that starts from the moment I walk into the dealership for the first time.

Sure, not all the Euro and Japanese dealerships are the best experience (but chances are pretty good) and there are definitely quality issues with the Euro cars. But once again, I'm going for the total ownership experience and when the Americans figure this out, then they will be successful.

Until then, walk into their dealerships and just grab your ankles...

"I'd rather have an Aura, Fusion or Malibu than a camry from a styling perspective. I'd rather have an Acadia or flex than a blocky pilot."

1487, All this tells me is that you have bad taste and must have a soft spot in your heart for chrome. How old are you 65+? You don't like blocky Pilot but you like the blocky CTS? That thing looks like a brick! Sorry, I will pass on those and go for the cleaner, sleeker, modern European inspired design of the Accord , Camry, Acura, Lexus, etc...As for your Flex, Arcadia, insert SUV name here, sure, American makers are good at those, but oh wait, they aren't selling many of those any more are they? So the mechanic got it wrong, American Car makers do make the best of something, they make the Best GAS GUZZLERS in the world!

AMEN flwind!

"I dont understand why people think you can simply ship over European products unchanged and sell them here successfully."

The fact that they are bringing these over should tell you they have a clue that they CAN sell them successfully here and you cannot argue against the image problems that current American brands have in the states. Maybe not with older buyers but certainly with new young buyers. Just take a look at the comments if you are in denial. Bringing these models here as a Holden, Falcon, VauxHall, Opel etc can work wonders for the image problem when people feel they are buying European and not American. If you have any doubts, why did Nissan bring the GTR as a Nissan and not an Infinity? Why are the American big three rehashing all of their blasts from the pasts? Because IMAGE is everything in this country...

"Remember the new GT-R is a BASE MODEL GT-R and the ZR-1 is a "top of the line" Corvette. Its pretty sad when the lowest model of one car leaves the top model of another doubting it's own capabilities. Another fact is you dont look at all those numbers until the car has caught your attention, or "moved" you. If you havent noticed BMW is already redesigning the 5-series. So the M5 that the CTS-V is beeting is already old news."

I think your screen names says a lot about your rationality.

1. the GTR is AWD and has traction advantages over ANY RWD car, including the vette.
2. The GTR is slower than the Z06 (and ZR1) through the quarter mile. Also the Zr1 is faster than the GTR at the Ring or in any drag race so I dont understand how the GTR has it "doubting it's capability".
3. The Viper ACR is faster than the GTR at the Ring
4. GM wasnt regularly testing vehicles at the Ring until 5-6 years ago. The cobalt SS is faster than any Japanese compact at the Ring. The 2nd fastest FWD compact is an Opel, not a Honda or Toyota.
5. There will not be a new M5 until 2010 or 2011. The current model is still on sale at a BMW dealer near you. check it out for yourself. That said, the CTSv will beat it for $20k less.
6. The old "wait until the next gen" come out is a cop out that wouldnt be tolerated if a domestic car fan offered it as an excuse. Stop making excuses about products out today by saying a new, better, unannounced product is coming in 3 years.

Look deeper. I think he makes a point about the perception of Detroit. He doesn't cite any general reasons why the imports are better, just that they are. That is very superficial, just like most of the car buying public. They are not buying the car, but the image that comes with the car. Detroit needs to continue to better their cars AND their image.

"1487, All this tells me is that you have bad taste and must have a soft spot in your heart for chrome. How old are you 65+? "

You have to be kidding me. You think the corolla is hot and then you accuse me of being old. Surely you jest. The camry, corolla, accord, etc. are conservative designs for conservative people who like the status quo. toyota created Scion because it's owners are getting older and older and young folks arent attracted to Toyotas these days. When you look at the Avalon and Camry you can see why.

BTW, the fact that you are pretending that I am alone in admiring the looks of the vehicles I mentioned shows you are living in a vacuum when it comes to automotive news. The Malibu, CTS, Enclave, etc. have been widely praised for design and execution. MT said the Malibu was easily the most attractive car in it's class.

"As for your Flex, Arcadia, insert SUV name here, sure, American makers are good at those, but oh wait, they aren't selling many of those any more are they?"

1. It's "acadia" not Arcadia
2. Sale of the Cobalt, CTS, Malibu, Fusion, Focus and Aura are up this year. Get your facts straight.
3. Sales of Enclave and ACADIA are up this year. The Edge is outselling the Pilot and Highlander. Get your facts straight
4. Acura and lexus sales are down for the year so their "European" styling must not be as appealing as you believe. Get your facts straight.

If you are going to post assertively you might want to get a handle on the facts.

Thanks to the Mechanic for once again providing an entertaining post to comment on. I don't necessarily agree with all that he says, but I enjoy reading the debates that follow.

For those of you who just insult the Mechanic, you need to realize that there is a reason he posts like he does and you are playing right into his game.

The existence of the Mechanic is primarily to piss people off. Its not like his points couldn't be made in a more civilized way. He is well aware of all the anger and hate spewing posts that take place on this site each and every day (and its getting worse...), so he knows that you guys will rise to the bait.

"The fact that they are bringing these over should tell you they have a clue that they CAN sell ........ when people feel they are buying European and not American."

The Astra is sold here and isnt doing well. Previous attempts by Ford and GM to sell Euro products here havent done well. Most Americans arent familiar with Opel or Vauxhall and could care less about those brands. BMW, MB and Audi are seem as prestigious and that's why they are sought after. People in America are not clamoring for low end European cars with brand names they have never seen before. Small European cars are far more expensive than their American counterparts because people dont associate price with size like they do in the US. Also, most of the fuel efficient cars in Europe use diesels that cant even be sold here in the US due to our emissions standards. The Astra has only one gas engine that is sold with an auto and that's the engine that got sent to the US. The problem? That engine is lackluster from a fuel economy standpoint and that has hurt sales. The Astra is priced much lower than it is in Europe and many in the US still think it's too high even though GM is losing money on the car.

Why would Edmunds pay someone to troll when there are more intelligent ways to start a discussion like this? Weird.

"BMW, MB and Audi are seem as prestigious and that's why they are sought after"

See, you just admitted it yourself. Image is everything in America. Face the facts. They're just not as many American cars that have the image factor than imports that do. You keep forgetting that the new GT-R is a base model. Like I said, it took a top of the line Corvette to beat a base model GT-R. That just isnt cutting it. By the way, the Cobalt SS ran a 8:22 on the Ring. The Renault MéganeRS R26.R (a 2.0L FF compact Euro import co-engineered by Nissan) ran a 8:16, a whole 6 seconds faster than the Cobalt. You sound like one of those grouchy GM reps I used to work for. Forfetting the fact that things change. GM inevitably couldnt stay on top forever.

"GM wasnt regularly testing vehicles at the Ring until 5-6 years ago."

This statement brings home the fact that they are still 1 lap behind.

P.S.- you still didnt answer the age question. I wont say 65+, but I will say mid to late 50's.

"Now I tell the truth for a living. A good living. I get big checks to write this garbage. Big enough that I can buy any car I want. OK, that's a stretch. The Mechanic cannot afford a Rolls or a Bugatti, but I've got money to spend."

Oh... and he kind of lost me after the opening phrase...

Oh, yeah, I forgot to add, if American cars are never the best in their segments, then why is Chrysler building Nissan's new truck, and VW's minivan.

I'm not saying America does it best. I'm just saying no one is superior.

And the 3 series is definitely the BEST in near luxury class, unless you count the CTS. That's why everyone is copying BMW from Lexus to MB. Ofcourse, the CTS isn't really "near luxury" and should really compete with the 5 series.

That Chrysler info isnt official. They are only to provide the HEMI, the chassis is still Jap engineered. As a matter of fact, Carlos Ghosn is talking about scrapping the Titan all together. And as far as money is concerned, most people would rater have a Bimmer than paying that much for a Caddy. Most people with those pockets are'nt domestic fans anyway.

1487,

It is obvious that you are just out here to defend Detriot. Why would anyone need to defend Detriot if they make such fine vehicles in comparison with the competitors. I respect GM for catching up the quality that Toyota once exhibit. But it is no way that any GM vehicle can be considered best in its class - maybe some of their pickup trucks/SUVs - but we know those line of cars are not doing well for GM.

We know you preferred a Malibu over Camry/Accord or Arcadia over a Honda Pilot or a CTS over BMW 3 series- but so what, does that mean those vehicles are better or can be even considered best in its class?

And that's the exact point the Mechanic is making- no matter how good these GM vehicles get, they just caught up with their competition- they offer nothing more.

Well stated traderyin.

I just bought a 2008 Pontiac G8 GT and am very happy with my decision. I have no issues with people who choose to drive German or Japanese or Korean. I respect their decision. I choose to drive American brands so please respect mine and others who choose the same.

There are awesome cars out there from all the manufactures and some not so awesome cars.

@Bob Holland: "He's not talking to you. He's talking to those who can afford top-ticket cars. This is not a "middle class" discussion, or a discussion that the middle-class can relate to or easily understand."

Really? If this is the case, he should've put a disclaimer: FOR RICH PEOPLE ONLY.
This excuse doesn’t make much sense, as I don’t think too many truly rich people post here anyway.
However, there are a lot of rich people driving GMs (e.g. Escalade, GMC) or Fords (Navigator, F-series) don't you think?

On top of that, he's all over the map with his statements. For example this one:

"I could go on with specific examples, but it's easier to just make a blanket statement: No American car, from the lowly Ford Focus to the mighty ZR1, is truly the best car in its segment in the world. Not one. The biggest of big pickup trucks being the exception and that's only because they're still the only game in town for dually diesels. Honda and BMW don't make those."

1. Honda and BMW don't make p/u trucks, but Toyota does and it's not the best.
2. Honda makes a mid-size CUV - Pilot, but I don't see why it would be better than the Acadia? The same goes for the Highlander.
3. Ford makes segment leaders in other world markets. Example: Euro Focus and Mondeo.

The only excuse I can find for some of his statements is that, indeed, he wrote this blog with the sole objective to start a riot. If I were to take it seriously, I would say that a statement like the example above is just ignorant or idiotic.

Disclaimer: I own two Japanese cars.

I completely agree 1000% with this article.

You guys don't get it, this article is about build quality, that's it.

It's not about the best muscle car this and that...

The big three should be embarrassed at the cars that they output to the world. Their business is threatened and still the come out with crap cars. I call them the "fast food" of cars. Junk really. I mean even Ford in their Ford Edge commercial they are saying that "now" they are on par with Toyota on their build quality. Did any of you see that commercial? Ford itself is admitting that they were (still are really) building crap! I'm not even gong to talk about Chrysler (but i will), their cars are probably the worst out there, I have seen countless chrysler/dodge cars with their owners posting messages on their back windows saying something like "Chryslers are crap and do not ever buy a Chrysler in your life, they are junk". Unbelievable, people are that fed up!!!

As for GM, they WERE the biggest car manufacturer in the world, but not anymore, little Toyota has passed them and they haven't seen the end of it yet!! Has anybody asked themselves why? It's not because Toyota has a better marketing team!!! They just build better cars period and GM can't!!!! The proof??? SALES!!!

I mean for fk sake, even Hyundai is building great cars these days, much better than the big 3 AND THAT'S FRIGGIN EMBARRASSING FOR THE BIG 3 PERIOD.

Even the Chinese are catching up to the big 3. When their dealerships hit America (coming very soon) with their super cheap cars and decent build quality, why would someone want to buy a GM or a Ford or even worse a Chrysler?

You can see though that GM is really pushing really hard from the inside to output some decent cars (Cts, Malibu) but still they just can't do it, I think the problem is on the inside, the designers, engineers, managers, direction, etc...

Oh and the Corvette?? OMG, that interior is just horrendous! It's just wrong and the proof that GM has lost it and just does not get it!!!!

And for those of you who are comparing BMW's to Cadillac are just the same problem, you just don't get it!!! You just don't!!!!

I think it's unavoidable, it's just a matter of time before they just downsize to the point of extinction.

The only reason people buy cars from the big three is price and convenience (some minivans, trucks, etc..) but that's just a matter of time before even that is just not going to be enough to keep them going..........unfortunately!

"Cadillac really thinks the CTS is as good or better than anything in the world. Better than a BMW 5 Series. Better than a Mercedes E-Class. Sorry, guys. It's closer than you've ever been, but it's still a lap behind."

This is a true statement. It isnt opinionated in the least. Yes the CTS is a sharp car, but the author is saying that the Cadillac should have been at this stage ealier in the game, which is very true. When now they are just catching up. Nobody said the car totally sucks, just the fact that they are a little behind.

nissanfanatic,

The Renault MéganeRS R26.R is a limited edition (450 units) model that uses polycarbonate rear windows and tailgate, rollcage, rear seat and belt delete, carbon fiber hood, titanium exhaust, removal of radio, passenger and curtain airbags, soundproofing, etc. This really sounds like a trackday special versus a daily driver Chevrolet. The Renault website (http://www.renaultsport.co.uk/roadcars/meganer26r/) even states as much:
"Mégane R26.R has been developed to:
- offer customers who enjoy trackdays a car with an unrivalled performance
- be a collectors car"

Makes me wonder what a spec miata would do? How about the Pontiac Solstice from SSB?

A Spec Miata doesnt sound bad at all. As for the Solstice, GM says it's going to be "shelved".

I am truly infuriated with your half-assed attempt to downgrade one of Americas finest industries. How can you write an article like this about the very companies who give you a job. I know you think you're some sort of big shot talking about the BMW's and Mercedes and other expensive cars of sorts, but don't ever downgrade the corvette like you did--especially to a mercedes worth an outlandish amount more than the vette.

My garage is filled with nothing but American cars and ive been happy with it that way my whole life. I enjoy keeping my money in the USA. I don't know where you live, but i hope it's not Detroit......You Un-American son of a bit*h. Have fun driving your prius, queer.

"GM's naturally aspirated V6 makes more power than the BMW twin turbo"

1487, maybe on paper.

And the best post award of belongs to...........Tryan!

"I think the Mechanic met his goal by stirring the pot and getting most of you worked up.

I've never been fond of American cars, but have been impressed with the latest offerings in most segments. I even almost bought into a Saturn VUE because of it's perceived quality and value argument.

Alas, I stuck with the Germans for another 48 months, and while I might not have bought into a more reliable vehicle, nor did I buy the most economical or value-oriented, but I bought the car that stirred my emotions and hit the right buttons for ME. That's what it's all about, right? Automobiles are an emotional purchase for the most part, certainly not logical given the increase in sales of hybrids and the multitude of fact-backed arguments given against that decision.

Regardless, I think Detroit's big problem is not necessarilly that their current cars are "a lap down", I think the problem is deeper than that. It delves into WHY they are playing catch up, and that circles around product management. Their biggest problem NOW is the decade+ spent focusing on large SUV and truck offerings, while letting their car lineups stagnate. Ostensibly, this proved profitable in the shorthaul, but is proving detrimental now with the current economic climate.

Given that situation, I think the Domestic manufacturers have actually done very well with refining and improving their car offerings over a relatively short time period, and are still on the up-slope of that curve. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether they reach the pinnacle of quality before they file chapter 11."

Great post.

It's hard to be the ultimate best in anything nowadays.
Germans are very unreliable.
Most Japanese cars are reliable but can't get luxury right. Name one japanese vehicle that is GREAT LOOKING.
The CTS is a very, very nice car. Less expensive than its competitors. More reliable than a BMW, and better looking than ANY Lexus.
p.s. I drive a 2007 IS350.

I think The Mechanic tries too hard to piss us off. He makes many valid points, but leaves many questions to be answered.

I can't think of a single Lexus model that another manufacturer doesn't make a better version of. They may be rock-solid, have impeccable interiors and be nice to look at, but they all fall short in driving pleasure and performance. Not best in class.

I dont think Detroits BIGGEST problem is what the author stated (although it is a problem) I think it has more to do with overall product execution and the fact the domestics are S O S L O W when it comes to a market shift. The past market shift just validates my point.

I will admit the value equation does damper product perception as I get tired of hearing that "the CTS is a 5 Series sized car for 3 Series money". Why not just throw the extra cash at the CTS and go head to head with the 5? Is GM scared that people wont buy it if it was priced like a 5? Is Cadillac somewhat intimidated by BMW?

Overall execution in regards to GM and Ford products have improved greatly but they STILL dont adapt well when the market shifts. Chrysler....well....you already know.

What I dont understand about the domestics is why and how they let themselves get in this bad of shape before they tried to do anything about it? Did they not plan ahead or have a strategy set?

I do know they made some REALLY STUPID decisions in terms of purchasing car companies that were in bad shape when GM and Ford didnt have a consistent competitive lineup themselves. I guess trying to be the biggest was more important than being profitable, making extremely competitive high quality products.

"What I dont understand about the domestics is why and how they let themselves get in this bad of shape before they tried to do anything about it? Did they not plan ahead or have a strategy set?"

This is the basis of what the author is saying. Domestics are claiming they are better than thier foreign competition. When in all actuallity they are just close. No onlybig3forme, nobody is downgrading American cars. It's just the fact that America should have been at this stage long ago and not just getting here. I'm sure everyone on this post can respect each individuals enthusiasm about a perferred manufacturer without thinking any less of that person or name calling.

"Name one japanese vehicle that is GREAT LOOKING"

G37
S2000
Supra
RX-7 (my vote for sexiest car ever made)
R33 Skyline

There's not many, I'll give ya that.

oh yeah,"the Mechanic"...I damn well agree with you on this.American Cars are most likely to be in the scrapyard in a few years.Japanese cars are the BEST.They are the most advanced as well...European Cars as well are the best too.Then the American cars...Wow,i have American pride,our "American" cars make a bad name though...American cars would be my last resort if i had to pick a car or truck...so my last resort doesn't exist.

For what it's worth, I must respectfully disagree with this author as well.

1) The CTS not only is as good, or better than its main competitors, but it has a look all its own that will hold up longer than any new 3 or 5 series. Stone me for saying it, it's true. Face it. Heck, the only new car in the CTS' sights that will keep up with it through the test of time is the E-class.

2) Toyota does half-ton pickups, Chevys are still better.

3) Interior quality in most cars today is distinguishable by a hair at most. You really have to beat the hell out of most interiors to get them to fall apart. I'd say the Lincoln MKX is probably the most disappointing interior I've sat in in recent years. And it doesn't feel as cheap as some cry. Just not particularly worthy of a $40k truck. So quit crying "hard shiny plastics," because Toyota does it too.

4) The GT-R's interior is not all that much nicer than the (leather-wrapped) Vette's. Actually...it's uglier and looks like its put together from big ugly black blocks. Won't argue about the seats though...they look mighty comfy.

5) An American automaker pulled Jaguar from having the reliability comparable to a straw under 50 pounds of pressure to near-Lexus levels of dependability. All while losing money every single year of ownership. Not too shabby...

mustang5507:

sorry, but while i don't mind the CTS's styling, its looks are too chromed out and pronounced to be easily massaged by the hands of time. even BMW's bangalized designs will hold up worlds better, simply because they are restrained and more conservative.

I'd like to solve the puzzle. Bob Holland is The Mechanic. At least for this particular blog entry. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it around. What did I win?

Bob writes: "Anytime you put qualifiers on "best" you are limiting it."

You (The Mechanic) do this. You chose to define it as exotics, but exclude Rolls Royce, Bugatti, and Trucks. That's some pretty narrow criteria.

And now for the bonus round. To counter the entire point of the "article", Ford did some pretty amazing things for Aston Martin (and Jag). It didn't do Ford a whole lot of good.

bah

1487:

the only reason the cobalt and the opel are the fastest cars at the ring are because not all fwd sport compacts have been tested there.

they may put up a good time, but there are only 3 cars that come to mind that have been regarded as title holders for the best handling fwd compact of all time.

and all 3 of them are honda's.

(prelude sh,integra type r and current jdm civic type r)

you can gripe about how american interiors are nice because toyota is slacking off all you want.

honda or vw cant be confronted with the same problem. even the civic, which has some cheaper plastics this gen compared to last, is STILL WORLDS AHEAD of anything offered by the big 3 in its class. cobalt? ha ha! focus? HA BYHAAAHAA! puh-lease. MAYBE, just MAYBE the astra, but even that is shod with some crappy quality, and its price tag goes way up when equipped nicely.

and even then, the rabbit will STILL own it in base form.

american cars are getting better. maybe no worse, but they are just as the author stated, not best in class.

oh crap!

forgot to add this:

1487, in regards to performance branded opels and other euro/american hatches/coupes, if you indulged in any euro car mag or top gear every once and ahwile, you'll find that most if not all of these cars are overpowered, understeering pigs.

the value card in europe is what gets them to sell a few. they are still out-everything'd by their classier and somtimes less powerful competition.

even the brilliant focus rs isn't without complaints on a shoddy interior.

"It is obvious that you are just out here to defend Detriot. Why would anyone need to defend Detriot if they make such fine vehicles in comparison with the competitors. I respect GM for catching up the quality that Toyota once exhibit. But it is no way that any GM vehicle can be considered best in its class - maybe some of their pickup trucks/SUVs - but we know those line of cars are not doing well for GM."

And are you just here to defend Import cars? Many could argue (and has been argued) that the Malibu and CTS are class leaders (perhaps not by sales numbers, but thats not what we're getting at), hence why they both landed on so many Top-car lists at major publications. And I'm not just talking CTS-V, Car and Driver picked the CTS V-6DI over any midsize luxruy car. But I'm not going to argue "best-in-class" as my points are no more valid than anyone else's concerning that because its a personal choice.

Its as simple as this. American cars have not, as has been proposed several times, always been the bottom feeders of their respective classes. Case in point, Ford Taurus: for years it was the best selling midsize car. Yes, it was allowed to degrade into a former shell of itself, but thats because of American market demand. America wanted trucks, SUV's and V8's and American manufacturers were the only ones building them. Imports didn't have to meet than demand, they had comfortable home markets where loyalists would continue to buy their cars.

Not so for American automakers. Not only do they build cars primarily for the most competitive market in the world, but they were caught off guard by oil prices. Even as gas prices topped $3 a gallon, SUVs and Trucks were still selling like hot cakes. It wasn't until earlier this year when they hit $4 a gallon that the American public panicked.

I'm not excusing them for being caught of guard, poor product planning is poor product planning, and same for development, but when you're target market is clamoring for something, you give it to them as fast as you can. Why do you think most major manufacturers came out with an SUV in the past 5 years? The problem is, the import brands had quality, fuel-efficient cars in their lineups backing up their trucks, and the Americans didn't.

American companies aren't in capable of creating class-leading products. The 1st gen Focus was a class-leader, it had good materials (for the time), good ergonomics, strong motors (in 2000, about the best you could do comparably was a Corolla power-wise), its only knock was fit and finish and NVH (however, a Civic was no better at the time).

The point I'm trying to make (perhaps poorly, I don't know) is that American automakers have to meet the demands of the American public first, and the world's demands second, as foreign car markets aren't their primary source of profit. Only recently did America start demanding fuel-efficiency and quality from small cars, and the imports were ready because they already have to do that just to survive in their home market. American companies ARE a lap down right now, but considering it takes at least 3 years to bring a car to market (unless a company-wide effort is undertaken, a la Ford GT), you can't expect them to build class leading small cars when all their target market has demanded is class leading trucks and SUVs for the last 30 years.

"its only knock was fit and finish and NVH (however, a Civic was no better at the time)."

I stated that poorly, it should read "its only knock was fit and finish and NVH (However, the last of which a Civic was no better at the time)."

1487 said ... Lots of ignorance on display here. BMW outsourced transmissions to BMW and GM so I dont get how you can praise them for being ahead of the game on that front. On top of that MB, not BMW is using 7 speed autos.

Dude - read what you just said "BMW outsources to BMW"!!! And I clearly said MB has a 7-speed. Learn how to read and write before calling people ignorant.

1487 said ... The sigma, zeta and lambda platforms are all recent and that's just GM.

Did you miss the announcement that they are being KILLED???!!! Same story again, one hit, kill, move to the next experiment. No staying power.

Ask any auto enthusiast the world over what a 535i or a 750i is. You don't need to say the brand. Everyone knows. Ask them what a cobalt or solstice or enclave or CTS is - nobody knows. They can't even get the brand sraight. they change the game so often (experimenting) that they run out of sensible names. It is totally ridiculous. As good a car as it may be, would you want to tell your girlfriend that you drive a cobalt? Please.

1487 said ... do some research...Who seels more midsize sedans, GM or Honda or Nissan?

Wrong question!!!

Relevant questions:

1 - Who MAKES MORE MONEY selling cars? Answer everyone but Ford, GM, Chrysler - They broke the record in losses.

2 - Which ones are the most desirable brands? Answer anyone but Ford, GM, Chrysler - they rank dead last in anyone under 50.

Got it? Your focus on sales number versus brand equity and profits is EXACTLY what is wrong with detroit. They are cheap. Not "valuable". a.k.a "junk"

1487 said ... I dont understand why people think you can simply ship over European products unchanged and sell them here successfully.

Hummm.... because BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc do it, comand top dolar, make a ton of money doing it.

What you have to ask is why, not a single Detroit designed/made product from the three "domestic" brands is on the dream list of any european teanager, when BMWs, Porche, Ferraris, EVOs, WRXs, IS350s, AMGs are collective in their dreams.

Why is that?

Another thing...

Honda has two brands: Honda (mainstream) and Acura (sport luxury).

Nissan has two brands: Nissan (mainstream) and Infinity (sport luxury).

Toyota has 2 and 1/2 brands: Toyota (mainstream), Scion (youth - developing) and Lexus (Luxury).

Mercedes Benz has one brand + Smart and Maybach (developing niche).

BMW has one brand + Mini and Rolls (niche)

Why the Heck does GM need: Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, GMC, Saab, Saturn????!!!!

Why does Ford need: Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Volvo, Mazda (controlling ownership)?

Why does Chrysler need: Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep.

And until very recently they also had, Oldsmobile, Plymouth, Jaguar, Rover, etc.

Each brand uses dozens of names like Caliber, Cobalt, Edge, Focus, Fusion, CTS, MKS, Enclave, Acadia, etc.

What is with that - there is no way to build brand equity like that. What is the difference between a chevy a buick and pontiack or a dodge and a chysler or a ford and a mercury? (lower case use intentional)

None - can't explain that to a PhD!!!

It is insanity. It is only that way because of the dealership obligations.

And someone made a coment about UAW wages in 2010 being lower than the japanese wages. It is not the wages. It is the attitude, the age of the workers, the 2 retirees for each active worker ratio, etc. It is plainly not competitive. These companies need to go through CH11, just like the airlines did so they can kill all the brands and dealerships that need killing, close all the plants that need closing, void all healthcare, pnsion benefits, fire all the old guard and start anew. It is the only way.

The ex-big three are rotting from the inside.

Obviously you've never used Costco toilet paper, or you'd have a different opinion. Now I wonder if you've ever driven a Corvette.

I will agree with one thing, and that is even when Detroit has the best technology, they don't use it until four years later after all the foreign manufacturers have already incorporated it into their products.

"See, you just admitted it yourself. Image is everything in America. Face the facts. They're just not as many American cars that have the image factor than imports that do. "

I think you need to be clear about what we are discussing. I didnt claim that import cars dont have better reps, I said there are several domestic products that are arguably best in class contrary to what the Mechanic said. Image is a large part of car buying which is why mediocre products like camry and accord can enjoy huge sales year after year. Image is how Toyota maintains it's high sales levels. Few Toyota products are actually rated best in class by the automotive media.

"Why not just throw the extra cash at the CTS and go head to head with the 5? Is GM scared that people wont buy it if it was priced like a 5? Is Cadillac somewhat intimidated by BMW?"

common sense dictates that the STS is already priced like the 5 so it would make no sense to price the CTS like the 5. The 5 series is overpriced so I don't know that Cadillac is the one making a mistake by having the CTS start at $33k. Cars like the G35 and TL are priced closer to the CTS than the 5 series and yet you arent complaining about that. Only here could people actually criticize an American product for NOT costing enough. Are you really that upset that the CTS doesnt start at $45k? I'm sure cadillac will sell you one for that price if you so desire.

"Hummm.... because BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc do it, comand top dolar, make a ton of money doing it."

first of all Audi is small volume in the US. BMW and MB sell much better but their volumes are small compared to mainstream brands such as Chevy, Toyota and Ford. Common sense would tell you that expensive products have limited appeal. You are totally mistaken if you think GM and Ford could import Euro products and sell them for the prices of MB and BMW. Those brands are seen as luxury brands in the US and thus the premium pricing is accepted. That would never be the case for Opels and Vauxhalls.

Also, Japanese cars arent nearly as popular in Europe as they are in the US. Lexus has flopped in Europe (just like Cadillac) and Infiniti/Acura dont even exist over there. GM and ford are more successful in Europe than Honda and Toyota. I have no idea where you got this impression that European kids are clamoring for Japanese cars. MT took the Challenger to Europe and the car drew an enthusiastic crowd in every country. Read the series on their site and then tell me about how much Europeans hate American cars. Europeans dont find American cars practical because of their size and lack of diesel options. It's not about poor engineering, its about American cars not fitting the European lifestyle or fuel prices.

"Did you miss the announcement that they are being KILLED???!!! Same story again, one hit, kill, move to the next experiment. No staying power.

Ask any auto enthusiast the world over what a 535i or a 750i is. You don't need to say the brand. Everyone knows. Ask them what a cobalt or solstice or enclave or CTS is - nobody knows. "

You continue to reveal your ignorance. Why post if you have no idea what's going on in the automotive world? The camaro is on the zeta platform and it's not being "killed". that platform underlies RWD products all over the world including cars in Australia and China. The sigma platform will be around at least until the current CTS is redesigned in 5 years or so. The lambda platform is brand new and currently used on four vehicles. Where have you read that it's being phased out?

Japanese and American brands do NOT use the same namplates around the world. No one in Europe has heard of the Avalon, Tundra, TL, TSX, Pilot, G35, etc. Only German brands use the same names in all markets and that is mostly because their names are numbers. The fact that people in Europe have never heard of the CTS doesnt mean it's a bad car. Does the same apply to the G35 or TL or M45? Your arguments are weak.

"This is a true statement. It isnt opinionated in the least. Yes the CTS is a sharp car, but the author is saying that the Cadillac should have been at this stage ealier in the game, which is very true. When now they are just catching up. Nobody said the car totally sucks, just the fact that they are a little behind."

More lies and half truths. CAdillac was late to the RWD game (ok not really because they were RWD until the 80s) but they have not been playing catch up on other fronts. Cadillac was the best selling luxury brand until 1998 and when it comes to technology Cadillac was on par with German brands. On everything from rainsensing wipers to variable suspensions to top notch sound systems to adpative seats Cadillac has been innovating for a while. Cadillac got 300hp out it's mainstream V8 before MB or BMW. While MB was using SOHC 3 valve engines Cadillac was using theh 32V DOHC Norhstar that had better specific output than MB's 275hp V8 and a higher redline. Cadillac also had magneride long before any comparable German car had an active suspension system. Cadillac lagged in handling and unfortunately some people think that this is the only criteria for a luxury sedan. The CTS and STS have closed whatever gap existed in handling and now Cadillacs can easily match up to German sedans.

"And someone made a coment about UAW wages in 2010 being lower than the japanese wages. It is not the wages. It is the attitude, the age of the workers, the 2 retirees for each active worker ratio, etc. It is plainly not competitive. "

Any proof of any of that? Of course not. UAW plants are as efficient (if not moreso) than the average American plant run by the Asians. Many UAW plants have taken awards for best initial quality and everyone who knows anything about how cars are assembled knows that all automakers use the same basic methods and quality control measure. The older workers are retiring so I have no idea why you are referencing worker age. They are also shifting responsibility of retiree healthcare away from the automakers as much as possible. it's not my opinion, it's fact. The analysts agree that 2010 is going to be a watershed year in terms of lowering labor and healthcare costs for the big 3. Their costs may actually be lower than the Big 3 Japanese in the US. You sound like the typical bitter import buyer who is mad that a guy with a HS diploma in the midwest is making more than you are. People always think the other guy is overpaid. America is about getting the most money you can for your skill set. Dont be mad at those union workers for trying to make a living. They are the same as the folks working for Toyota and Honda in the US, they just happen to be unionized.

"Japanese and American brands do NOT use the same namplates around the world. No one in Europe has heard of the Avalon, Tundra, TL, TSX, Pilot, G35, etc."

Not entirely true, at least with respect to some of the major Japanese car 'names'. Cars called "Civic" and "Accord", for example, are sold in Europe and Asia; however, it is not necessarily the same model as sold in North America --> Euro-Accord = Acura TSX I believe?

nissanfanatic:

You say that the GT-R is a "base model" and that the ZR-1 is a "top of the line". I'm aware of the Spec-V version of the GT-R that will be here soon. However, the point still stands that you don't need to have the ZR-1 to beat the GT-R. The Z06 will do the job just fine. And for roughly the same money will be a more friendly daily driver.

If you want to claim "TOTL" status for the ZR-1 and then say that the Spec-V is going to be the TOTL then we can compare those two cars in 3 years when the Spec-V gets here. Until then, Chevy has two cars that will outrun the GT-R.

Also, to the Wrangler fanboy's, most Camp Jeep events won't even let LandRover's play. I had a friend get kicked out of a Jeep event because they were just going right over everything that the Cherokee's, Wrangler's, etc were getting stuck in.

It's true that in the US the LandRover is marketed as a LuxUte, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are still the premier off-roading SUV on the planet. The Land Cruiser is big and heavy and the Land Rover's are too, but when it comes to off roading, there simply are no other vehicles that can come close to the system's that they carry.

1487 "For the record the PT Cruiser is a 6 or 7 year old product that starts out under $20k. It's hardly state of the art american carmaking."

1. I said is worse than a 1979 Mercedes 230E, and I only used that as a reference because I had one.
2. For 17k you can get a new VW Rabbit that's better in EVERY way than the PT Cruiser, Focus or any other american compact. What other car has independent rear suspension at this price-point?

From Edmunds other article: "Glance underneath the 2008 Ford Shelby GT500KR ... and you'll shake your head in disbelief at the $82K Mustang's solid-axle rear suspension ..."

Word of advice for american automakers: making cars is not a game of mix-and-match with platforms, engines, transmissions and badges.

My opinion: American cars are BUILT to output specs. German cars are truly ENGINEERED.

As a note to my previous comment I have to admit that the Corvette is probably the only truly engineered american car. There are a few others to consider but they only wear an american badge so they don't make it to the list.

It really boils down to a simple marketing rule: supply and demand. Before the gas hit $3/gallon, americans want BIG vehicles with MORE and MORE HP, as far as for the build quality/finish, it was not so important. Looking around other parts in the world, if you have ever hit the streets in Europe or Japan, the first thought come to mind is why we don't get such nice (build/finished) vehicles back in the states. I will still give GM credits for some of its new lineups. The only problem is, while you are already behind and trying to catch up, your targets are also moving forward. It is just going to be a long (and probably painful) journey for the big 3s.

hondacura4; Thank you for the praise, we certainly see a lot of emotion in these responses, don't we? =)

1487, if the UAW workers are so productive, competitive and wonderful, and the Detroit cars are so good, then why, in your opinion, did Detroit lose tens of BILLIONS in a single quarter when other automakers are making money and expanding market share.

There are many attributes to make a car better or best. There is the mechanical atributes, there is image, there is price, there is resale value, there is warranty, there is dealership experience, there is safety, there is available financing, there is the company behind the car.

You can rattle tech specs as much as you want, that is just one aspect, and other than the Lambdas and pick-ups, it is hard to find a market segment where detroit is ahead on anything other than price.

Comparing a brand-new/redone CTS-V with a 6 year old E-class or 5-series is easy. But you must know that both cars will launch with a brand new platform next year as '10 models, right?

And if you buy a CTS and want to move up, what do you move up to? The decrepit STS boat? Or if you want a smaller car for your wife, what do you buy in the Cadillac family - see NO OPTIONS.

If you buy a 535i or 535ix you can move up to a 750i, you can buy your wife a 335i or ix. You know you won't lose too much money in depreciation with any of those. How about the CTS? You know it will be sold in the poliester lot for $10K after 4 years, right? The bimmers will be mostly CPOs sold for 60% of new.

Are MB and BMWs perfect? Heck NO. Are they overpriced? YES. That is where the profits are - high desireability, higher priced, higher margin. They are also too small for my taste, except the S and 7 and their interiors are inferior to Lexus and Audi.

Ask yourself, how can GM and Ford invest in R&D when they are losing billions a quarter and firing engineers left and right because they can't fire unneeded UAW workers?

Now, watch Detroit over react and cancel all their new RWD platforms and V8s, just when Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Hyundai are investing in RWD and *HUGELY POWERFUL ENGINES*. Whach Detroit look for the easy fix - small 4 bangers and lose yet more money.

The smallest engine available in the US in the next 7 series is 400+HP. In the current S-class is 382HP, in the A8 it is 350 going to 420. In the LS460 it is 480+8-speed. The 3 series is available with 250HP (I forget the exact number), 300 and 400+HP. The 300HP can be tunned with a cheap Dinnan stage 2 kit to 427HP.

The CTS-V is a great car mechanically (from what I hear). But what is above and below it? Junk. What is the dealership experience? Outdoor cars, baloons, huge REBATE signs, poliester suits, shared lots with GMC and Pontiac in most dealerships.

So who will buy it?

Are

Meant 380/8-speed on the lexus.

Mechanic - you should be ashamed of yourself to even call yourself an American with your ignorant and biased comments. You call yourself "the mechanic," yet you clearly don't know much about cars.

Unfortunately, you are a reflection of the general American population's ignorance. The same ignorance that will lead to Obama winning the election.

You may be college educated, but you are not intelligent.

Congrats to 1487 for telling it like it is. It's amazing how many domestic haters there are that are willing to overlook so many facts about the imports. Just two significant ones:

1. Toyota has recalled more cars than GM in the last few years, and has lost CR's automatic recommend rating.

2. VW has one of the worst reliability ratings ever & the 'Lemon Law' was most frequently used for MB vehicles up until last 2-3 years (don't have recent data).

About interiors and percieved quality... VW's soft touch buttons and handles are nice for the 1st year.. but once they're scratched and start peeling they look like crap . Toyota has used the same switches and knobs for about 25 years, and they're dashes are so generic they should be outlawed.

It is a fact that BMW did use GM's 5 speed auto in its new 5 series unitl it was replaced by the ZF unit. And both BMW & MB decided GM's 2mode hybrid drive was far superior than anything they could devise so they decided to license it for their vehicles and actually become partners in its development.

And let's not forget all the Japanese car lovers -- half the Japanese industry went bankrupt and had to be helped by other car makers. Mazda is Ford, Nissan is Renault, Gm bought into Izusu & Subaru ( now sold those). This is the only way they could afford to bring out the products they have.

One last thought.... when Japanese auto makers first came to the US.. they were awful, just like Hyundai. But they improved. So why is it so hard to admit that the American auto makers are improving?

Introducing a little anarchy are we?

I see the first image and keep remembering the phrase "some people just want to see the world burn"

..but I think you're right.

Baron95:

Not to disagree with you about the CTS (I actually think you made a pretty good point about where do you go from there), but I work at a store that carries several high line european brands. They're all under one roof and the vast majority of our inventory is kept outside. I don't think it's fair to criticize a brand based on the dealerships they are sold out of. Franchise dealerships come in all shapes, sizes, and models regardless of the brand of car marketed there.

"You must not follow current events. And by the way who are you holding up as the benchmark in interior design? Toyota?"

I believe I mentioned VW (and by extension-Audi) in my post, but hey, why let facts get in the way? My point is; There is not one single American car you can name that doesn't have an interior that feels cheap. Yes, even the Aura and the Malibu. In fact, I would contend that out of the big 3, GM's interiors are the worst.

"As for leaf springs, you should note the Vetter has an IRS and has a transverse leaf spring which isnt the same set up that is used on pickups"

I've been around Corvettes my entire life (C2-C6) and I'm completely aware of the differences of a transverse leaf spring vs what you would find on a truck. The point is; It's outdated and no other in it's class utilizes a similar set up. Please tell me why a more modern set up can't be used on "America's Sports Car". To drive a Vette today is not that different than driving a Trans-Am series car; you have to muscle it around every single corner and hope that it's giant rear end doesn't snap loose and swap ends like an 80's 911 Turbo

"There is nothing simple about the Vette's suspension componentry and to suggest otherwise only betrays your lack of knowledge."

Oh and I can easily say that your zealous and myopic defense of GM products betrays your credibility, but I'll just chuckle at that one.

"The Mustang is a totally different animal and it's one of the only American cars (other than compacts) that lacks IRS."

But the Cobra HAD IRS before didn't it? However, Ford decided to go back to a solid axle set up with the new one. Call it what you want, but that's not progress and that is the crux of the entire article.

Why is it that if someone thinks American car are sub par they are (in some cases) put down by being called Obama supporters, elitists, colege people, gay or Prius driver? And how is that bad.
When I was growing up if elitist refered to people that went to good schools that was a good thing. But I am off point.

Stop blaming labor. The big 3 are in trouble because of management.
"Best" is totally subjective
I do (as most do) factor in price. Yes I think the 'Vette interior is lacking but let's not compare to a car twice as expensive.
Their is a negative halo effect. The Malabu is a fine car but it will take years to catch up. Right now the big three need to have something dollar for dollar better.

I bought a 06 Miata (Yeah I know queer guy's car -- but if the shoe fits...) I looked at the Sky & Solstice later. I like them. The top is silly but I love the Redline. GM has a winner I thought. But why make 2 niche cars? Greed? So now they are loosing money on everyone and they are letting one or both of them die on the vine.

It's like they come sooooo close but then blow it.

There is a reason they are bleeding to death -- And a few halo cars can't save them. It's very sad.

I have worked in the automotive industry for years. I only owned GM cars up until 2003 when I bought my first non GM car. I bought an Infiniti. I finally found a car that I did not compromise on. There is not enough space to write about the problems I had with GM cars. Today, there is not an American car that is even considered anymore. All my coworkers, friends bought Mazdas, Nissans, Toyotas, or BMWs. It is sad and a shame but I feel exactly the same way.

So, all you guys defending Detroit and its products are basically saying...

"You, the american public, consumer, driver are complete idiots. If you are not buying from Detroit, you are bying inferior products and paying more for it. You are morons. We know what is bestfor you. And it is Detroit's products"

Now, who is the elitist commie? The ones that simply point out the facts, that americans have voted with their wallets and Detroit is losing billions and market share, or the Detroit cheerleaders that think they know what is best for the american consumer.

Fear not my friends. The "market" will punish Detroit very, very dearly and will make it plain and clear that Detroit can't compete anymore. GM is no longer #1, Ford is no longer #2 or #3, Chyrsler, I don't even know what number they are. And they did all that by producing great cars, right?

By the way, since you (Detroit supporters) saved so much money buying Detroit products, I have a great deal for you... I have a deed for this one bridge connecting Manhattan to Brooklyn, I'm selling shares on it....great quality bridge, all unionized toll collectors, etc....email me at deal-for-detroit-fools@you-are-doomed.com

Cheers.

"Stop blaming labor. The big 3 are in trouble because of management."

Really, the ex Detroit execs seem to do just fine running sales and marketing at Toyota for example. Nasser did a great job in Europe, but somehow could not make Ford hummm in the US as CEO. Maybe, just maybe, the problem in the old and decrepit culture that includes unions, paying people to stay home, design and engineering by committee, etc.

Face it. Hyanday is taking market share from Detroit. BMW, a luxury brand sells more cars in the US than mainline american brands like Buick and Chrysler (check the August numbers if you don't believe me).

What does that tell you?

"I don't think it's fair to criticize a brand based on the dealerships they are sold out of. "

Fair enough, but, I have yet to see a Lexus dealership, where I didn't feel relaxed, welcome and treated in a businesslike and professional manner. Same at the Mercedes dealership where I bought my latest car.

Cadillac is the pinnacle of Detroit brands. The experience should be like buying a Maybach or a Ferrari or a Rolls. At least it should be like buying a Mercedes or a BMW.

Again, Detroit is making some right moves, don't get me wrong. The DI V6 from GM is a great engine. The Lambds are the best full size crossovers in the world for the $$$, the CTS-appears to be a great mechnical competitor to the bavarians (lacking only prestige, resale and ownership experience to be on par), capitalizing on the Challenger/Camaro brands is right on, etc...

But it is like a disfucntional family where the father is a drunk the mother is a crack whore, the grandma steals and occasionaly one of the kids gets a good grades. If you look hard there are indeed bright spots (a cute CTS daughter), but if you step back, ýou really don't want to marry into that family.

I'm not disagreeing with you on how a dealership SHOULD be. We take pride here in treating our clients with respect and making sure they are comfortable and taken care of. That said, there are a lot of poorly run dealerships out there that care more about cutting a profit than the customers, and I've seen that across all brands.

You're absolutely right though. If American brands took pride in their dealerships, more people would probably buy their cars...

"You, the american public, consumer, driver are complete idiots. If you are not buying from Detroit, you are bying inferior products and paying more for it. You are morons. We know what is bestfor you. And it is Detroit's products"

Now, who is the elitist commie? The ones that simply point out the facts, that americans have voted with their wallets and Detroit is losing billions and market share, or the Detroit cheerleaders that think they know what is best for the american consumer.

Fear not my friends. The "market" will punish Detroit very, very dearly and will make it plain and clear that Detroit can't compete anymore. GM is no longer #1, Ford is no longer #2 or #3, Chyrsler, I don't even know what number they are. And they did all that by producing great cars, right?

By the way, since you (Detroit supporters) saved so much money buying Detroit products, I have a great deal for you... I have a deed for this one bridge connecting Manhattan to Brooklyn, I'm selling shares on it....great quality bridge, all unionized toll collectors, etc....email me at deal-for-detroit-fools@you-are-doomed.com."

You know, I was beginning to agree with what you were saying, and then you got on your soapbox and completely undermined your point. Are you any different by saying that we SHOULDN'T buy American cars because they are utterly inferior? That YOU know better than WE do as to what we want? I'm beginning to see a double standard here...

Macine, said it well earlier when s/he said "when Japanese auto makers first came to the US.. they were awful, just like Hyundai. But they improved. So why is it so hard to admit that the American auto makers are improving?"

Its not that we're saying that everything they build is better, just like how no import brand has the best everything, just that there are some cars that are on the mark, and others are improving. Yes, the Americans are a lap down, but after building SUV's and Trucks so well for so long, they have to figure out how to properly engineer to todays standards again, just how the Japanese and Koreans had to learn to build a car to US standards as well.

"common sense dictates that the STS is already priced like the 5 so it would make no sense to price the CTS like the 5. The 5 series is overpriced so I don't know that Cadillac is the one making a mistake by having the CTS start at $33k. Cars like the G35 and TL are priced closer to the CTS than the 5 series and yet you arent complaining about that. Only here could people actually criticize an American product for NOT costing enough. Are you really that upset that the CTS doesnt start at $45k? I'm sure cadillac will sell you one for that price if you so desire."

1487, let me get this straight. Cadillac claims you get a 5 Series type of car with the CTS and charges a BMW 3 Series price, certainly not a bad thing. If the CTS is that good why even consider an STS? Why does it even exist?

You go on to mention the TL and G35, they may be 5 Series sized or even larger (09 TL) but neither Acura nor Infiniti has claimed the TL or G35 are 5 Series type of cars. Cadillac is obviously stating that the CTS is thier answer to the 5 Series so why dont they just go ahead and make it a legitiment 5 Series competitor as I think the CTS has a better chance competing with the 5 than the STS when you consider the model lineup as a whole. Cadillac OBVIOUSLY benchmarked the M5 when engineering the CTS-V (STS-V came up short compared to the M5) and the M5 is a 5 Series. Oh, there is that number 5 again.

The one thing I admire about BMW is when the set out to develop a car they build a BMW..and pretty much succeed. Other companies such as Infiniti and Cadillac (to some degree) I feel try to imitate BMW in a lot of ways and always end up a bit short (at least in detail). Let BMW be BMW. To further validate my point go back 20-25 years or so. BMW was building sport sedans yet Cadillac was building what?

Ahh Baron. Glad to see you blame the other problems aside of the Unions. I'm not saying that they don't act in their self interest but to say that that's the problem is too simple. "Foreign" car makers making cars in the US that pay as well as the UAW make a profit because they are run by the right people. Jacques problem was not unions but the culture.

Also in Europe they have a big advantage, the company doesn't pay for health care costs. Starbuck's biggest expense? Coffee? Nope health Insurance.

Putting that aside if my american car experience (my last Us car was a 93 Probe GT) was the least bit enjoyable I might have given them another chance.

I loved my BMW and I was treated well but the expense of "upkeep" just wasn't ok.

That said, when I bought my Miata I felt good about the process, wasn't treated like an idiot and the service is great-- evn for a $28K car.

If I bought a CTS I would hope I'd be treated well, but my fiends say they ran from the dealership to Lexis

The needling has just gone crazy. The Mechanic (Bob) must be delighted.

You know whats funny.

That the author makes the biggest flame bait post on edmunds...

But lacks the balls to stand behind his article and instead has to hide behind "The Mechanic"

If the author really belived what he wrote, he would use his REAL name. But alais, its easier to write crap, when your nameless.

Shame on edmunds for allowing it.

For tr3guy. I live in Europe. I own a company, and we have to pay for health care costs, and many other things as well (they represent about 30% of the wage). Living in Europe and labor costs are bigger then in America.

Every European who knows a bit about cars would newer buy an American car, and sad thing is that about third of Americans think the same.

Every time a read test of American can in any European magazine or site, was being criticized for bad handling, cheap interior materials, fuel economy, bad finish, bad transmission, too big engines.

The prove that American cars are step behind is that they don't sell well in Europe and Japan, because they are not good enough for this markets. Japan and European cars sell well in America!!!

Europe is much more demanding market for car makers. European car industry is investing more money in R&D, when American car industry is only now realizing that they cant sell cars with 10 year old technology and plastic interior.

I'm not saying that all American cars suck, but should be here 5 years ago. CTS might caught up with MB, BMW and AUDI, but all of them are developing new models that will come out in a year and then the CADILLAC is again step behind.

And still CTS is not selling well in Europe!

I love it! The Mechanic is my favorite Edmunds blogger!

GM, Ford and Chrysler are in trouble because of the American consumer, plain and simple. These are people who ACCEPT inferior products and pay good money for them. People buy plenty of horrid vehicles for MORE money than it would cost to buy PREMIUM quality products. US consumer gets what he deserves!

For baron95. It was & is not the unions that design crap, it's not the unions that can't understand what people want. Anmd it's not the unions that designed a "vett or a T-Bird with the interior that came out of a used parts bin.

for ervinbocko. If Taxes and costs are higher in Europe (which they are) I guess I'd look at what I get for my dollar.

Ironic isn't it the bg business' that didn't want single payers think it's not so bad now.

"Not entirely true, at least with respect to some of the major Japanese car 'names'. Cars called "Civic" and "Accord", for example, are sold in Europe and Asia; however, it is not necessarily the same model as sold in North America --> Euro-Accord = Acura TSX I believe? "

There are exceptions obviously but his point is still invalid. He is deriding american automakers from doing something the Japanese do. That was my point. Last time I checked TSX and Accord are not the same name. There is no Acura in Europe. The Vue is sold in Europe as the Antara but they have separate names. Honda is doing the same thing GM is doing.

"Face it. Hyanday is taking market share from Detroit. BMW, a luxury brand sells more cars in the US than mainline american brands like Buick and Chrysler (check the August numbers if you don't believe me).

What does that tell you?"

The first thing you need to do is get a basic grasp of how markets work. More competition generally leads to smaller marketshare. In Europe no automaker has the same share GM has in the US. Why is it people like you omit this fact? Oh, I know why because it blows apart your whole silly argument that less market share proves that you are making bad cars. Wake up and study the european market. Just as in the US the extreme level of competition and the number of players means no one can have 20% share there. GM had 50% share when there were 3 major automakers in the US market. Right now there are 10 so logic dicates that the share of the Big 3 had no where to go but down.

BMW is selling more cars because they have increased the number of "affordable" models they sell. There was a time when only the truly well off could afford BMWs and MBs but now each brand offers numerous models that can be leased for cheaper than a loaded accord. 50% of BMWs sales are from the 3 series and most 3 series are lower end trims. The average Tahoe retails for more than the average 3 series. Do "luxury" sales really mean much if many of the cars being sold are under $35k?

"Shame on edmunds for allowing it."

You arent surprised are you? His views reflect that of many of the staffers here. What better place to post a poorly researched rant than domestic hating edmunds/IL? Even C&D is looking objective compared to IL lately. Did you see the MKS review that totally contradicts every other review of the car?

"Unfortunately, you are a reflection of the general American population's ignorance. The same ignorance that will lead to Obama winning the election. "

Interesting you would say that when those on the right hate the Big 3 and their unions more than anyone. The main people who claim the Big 3 should "get what they deserve and their overpaid workers should retrain" are free market types that hate organized labor.

"The prove that American cars are step behind is that they don't sell well in Europe and Japan, because they are not good enough for this markets. Japan and European cars sell well in America!!!"

I assume you have enough common sense to know that GM and Ford offer Euro centric products. The reason why american cars arent sold there is because American cars are not made for europeans and that's why there are Euro only products. To be honest I dont trust the opinions of idiots like Clarkson or anyone else from Europe when it comes to American products. We dont have autobahns, we have larger spaces, we like larger vehicles, our roads are poorly maintained, etc. You commmentary about American cars lacking decent transmissions and "too large engines" shows you are out of touch with reality. GM (and maybe ford) uses the same architectures for its US and Euro engine offerings and GM shares trannies with US and Euro applications in many cases. GM sells 6 speeds to BMW so your comments don't line up with reality.

"The prove that American cars are step behind is that they don't sell well in Europe and Japan, because they are not good enough for this markets. Japan and European cars sell well in America!!!"

To my knowledge GM has more share in Europe than Toyota, Honda or Nissan. GM knows how to make cars that Europeans like and they do so under Opel and Vauxhall. Chevy is just getting a foothold over there now.

"Europe is much more demanding market for car makers. European car industry is investing more money in R&D, when American car industry is only now realizing that they cant sell cars with 10 year old technology and plastic interior. "

10 year old technology like VVT, 6 speed autos and direct injection? GM spends about $8b a year on R&D. How much does VW spend? Is this why the CTS has a 304hp engine but the C350 has 268hp and the new A4 has 265hp? Is this why GM gets 260hp from a 2L engine while Audi gets 200hp? Is this why Audi is still using iron blocks on some engines? Is this why the MKS and CTS have as much tech as any comparable Euro car but dont require 10 hours of manual reading before engaging basic functions?

"1487, let me get this straight. Cadillac claims you get a 5 Series type of car with the CTS and charges a BMW 3 Series price, certainly not a bad thing. If the CTS is that good why even consider an STS? Why does it even exist?"

I dont understand why I have to explain things like this. There is always some level of overlap when a new superior model comes out. The STS came out in 2004 and at the time was clearly better than the first gen CTS. The new CTS has raised the bar and subsequently has made the STS look like a poor value. It's the same thing with the 2008 Accord vs the 2008 TSX or TL. To say that Cadillac should charge more if the CTS is that good is ridiculous. Acura, cadillac and Infiniti ALL price their vehicle lower than the German competition in order to garner consideration. They dont do it because they feel their vehicles are inferior. Acura likely thinks the new TL is as good as the 5 series but I bet you wont be asking them to price it accordingly. If Acura charged $45k for the Tl sales would collapse.

"If I bought a CTS I would hope I'd be treated well, but my fiends say they ran from the dealership to Lexis"

Ah, the classic "blame the dealer" excuse. Dealers are independent enterprises. Some domestic dealers are good and some import dealers are bad. I have never been to an import dealer where the salemen werent pushy and somewhat unknowledgable. Of course the average domestic car hater will put up with that at a Toyota/Honda dealer but will run out of a Chevy dealer after receiving the same treatment. If case folks havent noticed, aside from the luxury brands import dealers rank low on JD Powers satisfaction surveys.

hondaacura,

Please show me where Cadillac said the CTS is specifically a 5 series competitor. If you compare cars on SIZE, the CTS, TL and G35 compete with the 5 series. Stop acting like Cadillac has come out making bold claims about the CTS vs the 5 series. The only non German luxury brand that has a true 3 series competitor is Lexus with the IS. Cadillac doesn't make a compact luxury car and from a size perspective they don't compete with the 3 series. The whole point of Cadillac's new approach is that they are NOT trying to mimmick BMW. Since people like base everything on what BMW is doing you cant conceive of the fact that the CTS doesnt have a direct counterpart at BMW. The CTS is a Cadillac and it competes with many cars on price and performance. Cadillac could care less if people cross shop it with the 3 or 5 as long as they chose the CTS in the end. The CTS-V exists in the $60k price range and whomever is interested can buy it. The fact that it costs less than the similar M5 doesnt mean that Cadillac has somehow missed the mark in their attempts to parrot BMW. Its obvious that Lincoln and Lexus have no desire to match up with BMW from a dynamics standpoint but cadillac decided that in order to be seen as credible their cars had to handle well. I think it was a good decision.

"Yes, the Americans are a lap down, but after building SUV's and Trucks so well for so long, they have to figure out how to properly engineer to todays standards again, just how the Japanese and Koreans had to learn to build a car to US standards as well."

Spoken like someone who has no clue about current product. Research the CTS, Malibu, g8, Fusion, 300C, Camaro, STS, C6, etc. before commenting further. Do you people even pay attention to the auto industry or do you make up stuff based on your biased preconceptions about American cars. I mean can you at least (try to) provide examples of before making such sweeping and ignorant statements?

"As a note to my previous comment I have to admit that the Corvette is probably the only truly engineered american car. There are a few others to consider but they only wear an american badge so they don't make it to the list."

The CTS/CTS V doesnt count as a noteworthy well engineered American product? Give me a break.

the small Vws didnt even have IRS until recently. The Golf, Jetta and Passat had beam axles a few years back.

As I said the Mustang is one of the only non compacts with a solid rear axle. Name 3 other American cars with such a system without mentioning the archaic Crown Vic.

"Why is it that if someone thinks American car are sub par they are (in some cases) put down by being called Obama supporters, elitists, colege people, gay or Prius driver? And how is that bad."

actually I think people who make general statements about how "bad" american cars are these days are ignorant. You can be educated and ignorant at the same time. Sure, many educated people THINK they are smarter than others and thus refuse to accept any data that contradicts their preconceived notions. I find that those (liberals, conservatives, whatever) who are quick to make stupid statements about the general poor quality of american products have little in the way of facts to back up their positions. when you start talking about 6 speeds, VVT engines, recent automotive awards, the LS9, Two mode hybrids, etc. their heads start spinning and they go into excuse mode. The bottom line is that this level of automotive ignorance is very common amongst a certain type of crowd and since these people generally only bounce these ill informed opinions off others who share their same views they actually believe they know what they are talking about. I have emailed newspaper reporters after reading totally inaccurate information in their articles regarding how holy Toyota is and how "behind" the bIg 3 are on technology and efficiency. Those who don't have mastery of a subject should refrain from trying lecure others about that subject. My experience has shown that the more someone preaches about the undisputed inferiority of American cars the less they actually know about cars or the auto industry.

"There is not one single American car you can name that doesn't have an interior that feels cheap. "

This may go down as one of the silliest comments in this entire thread. This is like arguing with a racist or a sexist. You are so hopelessly biased that it's amazing that you would actually think you should be taken seriously.

"To drive a Vette today is not that different than driving a Trans-Am series car; you have to muscle it around every single corner and hope that it's giant rear end doesn't snap loose and swap ends like an 80's 911 Turbo"

Read about the ZR1. Eat your words. Stop posting.

You should be embarrassed to post such nonsense here. Have some self respect.

"Oh and I can easily say that your zealous and myopic defense of GM products betrays your credibility, but I'll just chuckle at that one. "

Notice the key difference bewteen my posts and the posts of the ill informed lynch mob who is supporting the ridiculous stance of the anonymous blogger. You and your cohorts are arguing that every single American product is poorly engineered and there is no capacity for an American company to design and produce a legitimate contender. This stance is obviously precarious and can be easily disputed with the facts and I have shown that repeatedly. NEVER once have you read a comment in which I have proclaimed that GM's lineup is impeccable and full of class leading vehicles. I merely point out the segments in which GM is competitive and back my position with facts that cant be disputed. I do that and you say I am offering a "zealous and myopic" defense of GM. The fact that you dont like the truth doesn't mean that I am biased (as you are) or ignorant (as you seem to be) or incapable of liking cars regardless of where their manufacturer is located (which you can't seem to do). Its amazing that people can be so deluded as to sincerely believe that their closed minded and impossible to substantiate views are representative of the truth. In YOUR small world every American car sucks but that means nothing in the real world where we can examine performance, design, fit and finish, etc.

1487;

You can call people ignorant, and biased and quote market information all day long.

But you still can't tell us of an American Car with an interior that is of a higher quality than even a lowly GTI or an A3. Not one.

And please don't say something lame like "Panoz"

You also can't answer to the fact that Ford decided to go back to a solid axle set up with the current version of the GT500. By your logic, a solid axle is superior to IRS, which just highlights YOUR bias even further.

Again,the article is about progress, and America being "One Lap Down" The CTS DI-V6 may be a good engine and the CTS-V may be a GREAT car, but go sit in a "regular" 5 series and tell me that it's interior isn't better. Not to mention the handling, performance and other intangibles.

Are you seriously refuting the fact that GM didn't build the CTS-V to go after the M5? Because if you are, YOU need to get your facts straight and start reading some of GM's press releases and interviews.

We're one lap down for a lot of reasons.

"The CTS-V is a great car mechanically (from what I hear). But what is above and below it? Junk. What is the dealership experience? Outdoor cars, baloons, huge REBATE signs, poliester suits, shared lots with GMC and Pontiac in most dealerships.

So who will buy it?"

You have no credibility. Almost everything you type is a perversion of the truth.

1. A new M5 will not be out in 2009 because BMW always delays the debut of the M versions and the M5 isnt 6 years old anyway. The E63 was just updated within the last two years. Stop using the "wait until the next generation comes" cop out excuse.
2. If it was easy to beat the M5 Lexus, Audi and Infiniti would have likely done it already
3. The CTS is "below" the CTS-V and it was named MT car of the year and landed on C&D's 10Best list. Its been widely praied and is outselling the G35, TL and 5 series as of last month. That is garbage? No, but I can think of some opinions that are.
4. Cadillac routinely ranks higher than German brands in 3 year dependability and dealership satisfaction. Check the facts before attacking next time.
5. CTS sales were up 87% last month so I think cadillac knows more than you do about what luxury car customers would buy. Have you ever been inside the car, much less driven it? Stop bashing cars you haven't seen in person and dealership experiences you have never actually experienced.
6. Most Pontiac dealers are shared with Buick and GMC. Most cadillac dealers are either solo or paied with Buick. I have no respect for a person who choses what car to buy based on the dealer's proximity to dealers that sell cheaper cars. I suppose you are too good to be in close contact with inferior people who cant afford your kind of car but that doesn't bother me.

"Read about the ZR1. Eat your words. Stop posting"

I have a feeling your exposure to actually driving a Corvette is limited to Forza and GT-4 and sitting in the showroom going "vrrom vrrooom"

Go Autocross a Z06 and get back to us.

"But you still can't tell us of an American Car with an interior that is of a higher quality than even a lowly GTI or an A3. Not one. "

interior quality is subjective. I would say the CTS, STS, MKS, Milan, Lucerne Super, Enclave/Acadia or the Astra but you will simply say you dont agree. what's the point? Also, how can you define "higher quality" definitively? I think the materails in the GTI and A3 are fine but the designs are dull and unimpressive.

"You also can't answer to the fact that Ford decided to go back to a solid axle set up with the current version of the GT500. By your logic, a solid axle is superior to IRS, which just highlights YOUR bias even further. "

what the heck are you talking about? I have said nothing about the Mustang. PERIOD. The live axle is antiquated and everyone knows that. You need to read the initial premise of the article which was American cars are inferior in every way in every category. That statement is false. I said nothing about the Mustand being a benchmark coupe. The Camaro could be a different story though. Please explain why you are demanding some type of justification of the Mustang's rear suspension.

"Again,the article is about progress, and America being "One Lap Down" The CTS DI-V6 may be a good engine and the CTS-V may be a GREAT car, but go sit in a "regular" 5 series and tell me that it's interior isn't better."

It not better. Sorry but large expanses of black plastic, gauges that appear to be from the last decade and a center stack with 5 small knobs doesnt impress me at all. Several other people in the Long term blogs have said the same thing. I see nothing impressive about the 5 series interior from a design standpoint and the fact that you are holding on the the belief that it it CLEARLY better than the brighter, better designed more advanced CTS interior shows you are very biased and closed minded. Many reviews have said the CTS' interior is o equal quality and superior design to it's German counterparts. Try reading up on the CTS before coming here and telling people it's not competitive.

"what the heck are you talking about? I have said nothing about the Mustang. PERIOD. "

wow, is it posisble for you to destroy your credibility even further?

"Spoken like someone who has no clue about current product. Research the CTS, Malibu, g8, Fusion, 300C, Camaro, STS, C6, etc. before commenting further. Do you people even pay attention to the auto industry or do you make up stuff based on your biased preconceptions about American cars. I mean can you at least (try to) provide examples of before making such sweeping and ignorant statements?"

Excuse me? Did you even read all of what I wrote? Take a step down from your soapbox and relax for a bit. I agreed that there are examples in which American companies can build top notch cars, and I wholly agree that the aforementioned vehicles (STS and 300C to a lesser extent)are exemplary choices of good American cars, I'll even add the Flex to it, and the Edge to a lesser extent.

However, the key point of the statement I pointed out is "US Standards". They've changed, consumers are no longer settling for cheap plastic interiors with poor fit and finish (Focus, Cobalt, Caliber, Aveo, most Chrysler products: I'm looking at you). And this is coming from someone who drives an SVT Focus. I love the driving dynamics of the cars, for sure, but despite my complete TLC of the car, it has still developed creaks and rattles and has numerous poorly fitted plastic pieces in the interior.

Yes, the Big 3 are improving, and the cars you mentioned show that, and I don't doubt they can catch up, soon even; however the majority of the bread and butter American cars (aside from the aforementioned vehicles) suffer from cheap plastic interiors and some pretty bland/ugly exterior designs.

"interior quality is subjective"

to who? The Blind?

"I have a feeling your exposure to actually driving a Corvette is limited to Forza and GT-4 and sitting in the showroom going "vrrom vrrooom"

I can a)believe the motoring press who has thrashed the ZR1 on the track OR b)someone who has shown blantant bias and a total disregard for the truth and sincerely believes that there is one worthwhile product made by the big 3.

Who should I believe? Decisions, decisons.

Meant to say "there isn't one worthwhile product made by the big 3."

"to who? The Blind?"

It has to be subjective because no sane, objective person would be foolish enough to argue that the CTS, FLex, enclave, Malibu, etc. don't have nice interiors. Even the american hating automotive press has conceded that these vehicles have nice interiors. Where have you been? If you dont base your critcisms on the actual product what is the point of commenting? What you are saying is that you hate American cars unequivocally and it really doesn't matter about the product. That's just indicative of how closed your mind is and far you are from being objective.

tantan,

I will ask you to do something very simple: show me where I made any claims about the Mustang being best in class or even an excellent vehicle. Simple task. let me know how you make out.

honor,

I read what you wrote and it contradicted the first part of your statement. I will make a simple statement: newer cars are better than older cars. Your assertion that domestic automakers dont know how to build competitive cars because they focused on trucks is just plain wrong. The reason why the Malibu and CTS are two of GM's best interiors is because they are two of the newest. The Cobalt is one of the 3 oldest GM cars still sold in 2008 and thus it's interior is merely OK by today's standards. Spy shots of the cruze's interior show a much improved design and this is to be expected. When the Cobalt came out its interior was on par with the corolla and civic.

I am glad you can acknowledge there are some worthy domestic vehicles on the market.

"however the majority of the bread and butter American cars (aside from the aforementioned vehicles) suffer from cheap plastic interiors and some pretty bland/ugly exterior designs."

You seem to be talking about Chrysler and I agree. Problem is chrysler products have nothing in common with GM or Ford products. The interior of the fusion has more soft touch materials than the Accord, Camry or Malibu. This car has been on sale for THREE years. A new one is coming out and it's interior will be even better. Ford's trucks have been considered the benchmarks in interiro design until recently. The interior of the expedition is far better than that of the Sequoia or Armada. Where are all these mainstream GM/Ford vehicles with crappy interiors? Even interiors of some older products like the Lacrosse, DTS and Lucerne are nice. HAve you ever compared the Lucerne's interior to the plastic paradise of the Avalon? They arent even in the same league. The Silverado/Tahoe are mainstream GM products will excellent interiors that put Toyotas to shame. As for exterior designs I think GM's recent efforst are far more noteworthy than the medicrity being turned out by Honda and Toyota. Name 5 ugly American cars (not made by Chrysler) that have debuted in the last 5 years. The Fusion looks better after 3 years than the Accord looks after one. The Malibu, G6 and Aura are all very handsome midsize cars. Meanwhile the imports are giving us gems like the TL, TSX, Avalon and Maxima. Only Mazda seems to know what they are doing.

I'm betting this post ends around 250 comments (+/-5). Any takers?

i can normally stand 1487 but wow. theres a limit to what even I can read.

1487;

It seems that as long as someone else has a different opionion to you, they must be "biased" in some way.

BTW, the ZR1's slick "new" suspension system is a crude version of the Ferrari 599's.

Please tell us One significant innovation that American Auto Makers have come out with that has been copied by the Euros and The Japanese on thier own cars.

Just One. I bet you can't.

the responses are directed to specific people. You dont have to read them if you didn't make the intitial comment. Lots of people equals lots of comments.

"Last time I checked TSX and Accord are not the same name. There is no Acura in Europe. "

Just for clarification, thats not what I said. I said that in Europe, what we would call a TSX is badged as a Honda Accord. I see where you are coming from though, I'm just arguing semantics.

"It seems that as long as someone else has a different opionion to you, they must be "biased" in some way.

BTW, the ZR1's slick "new" suspension system is a crude version of the Ferrari 599's."

Not at all. Look up bias in the dictionary. You are making absurd claims that have no basis in reality. I am still waiting for some actual substantive claims that hold up under scrutiny. Thus far you have revealed yourself to be one of countless domestic car bashing bandwagon jumpers. You want to talk about subpar domestic vehicles? Fine: trailblazer, crown victoria, colorado/canyon, Town car, etc. There are examples out there. Always be wary of people who speak in generalizations but provide no specifics. Are some GM/Ford vehicles lacking? yes. Are all of their vehicles examples of subpar engineering? no. Its that simple.

Does the ZR1' suspension get the job done? Try answering that before telling me anymore about how inferior the engineering is. The car is one of the lightest sports cars on the road and uses fiberglass, composites, balsa wood and other things to do so. The Z06 uses titanium valves and revs effortlessly to 7k rpm. The ZR1 has carbon ceramic brakes and MR shockes. low tech indeed.

"I'm just arguing semantics."

I'm used to it by now.

i agree all the way. the big has always been playing catch up.

the Zo6 is a good track car yes.. but is it a good road car? hell no! it sacrificed everything road car about it to make it a really good track car. now look at Porsche, Ferrari, and Lambo. good track cars? yes. good road cars? surprisingly yes! they built good track cars without making any sacrifices.

now.. how many new Malibu's have i seen on the road so far? maybe 1 or 2.. how many of the new 08 Accords? almost every time i leave my house! (and no.. it's not a neighbors Accord that i see everyday)

and the same thing with the BMW 5 series, i've seen so many of those i lost count.. i can honestly say, that i see more BMW 5's than i do with the new civics.

"I'm used to it by now."

Remember that time I agreed with you on something and you still managed to insult me? It sure was fun.

1487;

Again, give me an American Automotive innovation that has been adopted by the rest of the world, not the other way around.

1487. That's right it's time to blame the media. The US cars are great we're just to dumb to know it.

"Does the ZR1' suspension get the job done? Try answering that before telling me anymore about how inferior the engineering is. The car is one of the lightest sports cars on the road and uses fiberglass, composites, balsa wood and other things to do so. The Z06 uses titanium valves and revs effortlessly to 7k rpm. The ZR1 has carbon ceramic brakes and MR shockes. low tech indeed."

Porsche has been offering thier Ceramic Composite brakes for several years now, which are available even on the Boxster. And don't get me started on effortlessly revving engines with titanium bits, particularly from the Germans.

Ferrari brought MR shocks to the market a few years ago as well.

Again, We are NOT the innovators anymore and we used to be. We've become a car industry of "me too". And even when we copy, it's never as good as the original.

Where's our DSG Gearboxes, Intellignet Cruise Control ala Mercedes and BMW, four-wheel steering sports coupes and the like?

Even if I concede your point that interiors are subjective (which I won't), you can't deny we're still behind in technology and gingineering when it comes to suspensions, engines, chasis and fuel economy.

If America Builds a car that is BETTER (not close, or Equal) BETTER than what I can get from Germany or Japan in every way, I'll buy it.

But in the mean time, I'll keep giving my money to the Bavarians and the Japanese.

I totally agree with the mechanic.

Kudos on the shift in tone in this installment of The Mechanic. Less Limbaugh-style inflammatory cheap shooting, more hard-hitting journalism. Keep it up!

Camry is not the best car in the segment. But it sells the most. Best is not equivalent to Most sales. Toyta has built a strong reputation over the years and it is paying off. On the other hand, the Detroit had a very short term approach. The quarter sales were more important than annual profit. Getting the cars out were more important than improving the cars. Detroit is doing pretty good now, but is it too late?

Honorsystem said... So why is it so hard to admit that the American auto makers are improving?"

It isn't. American automakers ARE improving and have been improving for a while. Didn't say that the CTS, the DI V6 and the Lambdas are great products? But the brands are damaged and the competition is improving faster.

A Hyundai going from a 1990 elantra to a 2009 Genesis 4.6 is a quantum leap. So is Lexus going from nothing to top Luxury brand by volume is less than 20 years.

The point being that Detroit's market share can ONLY go down. And the unions won't let management right-size the companies fast enough. Therefore they will ONLY lose money. By the tens of billions. Then they won't be able to invest in new cars to stay competitive.

I am a car enthusiast. I want to see vibrant mannufacturers competing to bring better products. I want the ex-big-three to succeed. I just don't see a concerted effort accross the board. I see products being launched and abandoned every few years. How many times has a Malibu or Impala or Five-hundred been launched and kiled? How many times has a Civic or 3-series od S-class or Golf been killed?

There is no hope for Detroit until they fis their brands. THat has to start by having less of them, consistent products accross the remaining brands, right-sized production so there is more demand than supply (what a concept, huh?), clear and consistent model naming, etc. It is not point products.

I am convinced all three need to go through Ch 11 to fix their problems. Or at least 2 of the three need to go and the third uses the thread of ch 11 to get union and dealership concessions. Just like DL/UA/US/NW went to CH11 and AA used that threat to get the same wage concessions from pilots and other usions.

"You know whats funny.

That the author makes the biggest flame bait post on edmunds...

But lacks the balls to stand behind his article and instead has to hide behind "The Mechanic"

If the author really belived (sic) what he wrote, he would use his REAL name. But alais(sic), its easier to write crap, when your nameless.

Shame on edmunds for allowing it."

Wait so your real name is opfreak? Weird name dude. That's funny.

1487 said ... cadillac decided that in order to be seen as credible their cars had to handle well. I think it was a good decision.

I agree on your entire post on the CTS positioning. It is a great car, it was the right move to show improved dynamics on par with the M5 in case of the CTS-V. That is brand repair, and has been, at least in the press, successful.

I'd like to see Cadillac follow that with an STS that can go toe to toe with the 7 Series and S-class on driving dynamics, including an STS-V that can go toe to toe with the S63-AMG. Then follow it up with an SL class convertible competitor and move have a Cadillac SUV-xover on the Lambda platform and the CTS-V engine.

If they do all that, now they have a brand, a family of competitive cars, a story. If they keep building/improivng that family and the dealerships consistently for 20 years, then they are back in the game.

It is totally do-able. Are they going to do it? Or is the CTS a one hit wonder that will be killed and/or renamed in 10 years?

I don't know. I'm hoping for the former, but their track record points to the latter.

1487 - my compliments to you - you do know about the cars and the strategy, even though I disagree with you on many points. Nice posts.

"I will make a simple statement: newer cars are better than older cars."
-Agreed, however, like everything, there are exceptions (1st gen Ford Focus to 2nd Gen-US Focus)

"Your assertion that domestic automakers dont know how to build competitive cars because they focused on trucks is just plain wrong."
-It would be if thats what I was saying, I said they "were" focused on trucks, but thats just semantics. I think I worded my point a bit unclear, I do that... What I was trying to say was that they were figuring out the demands of the American market for cars again, not that they didn't know how to build a darn good car, but that after being such major players in the truck market for so long, they lost touch with the car market. While, they do have competitive models (The Malibu and Fusion being good examples) that show promise, models such as the current Ford Focus (I know its a 9 year old platform, but still, that interior is terrible...) show that they are still working out all the kinks, at least in the small car segment.

"When the Cobalt came out its interior was on par with the corolla and civic."
-Quality of materials, it was pretty close then, still is with the current Corolla. Fit and Finish though? Close to the Corolla then and now, behind the Civic.

"Ford's trucks have been considered the benchmarks in interior design until recently. The interior of the expedition is far better than that of the Sequoia or Armada."
-Agreed, I've never felt that import trucks have held their own with domestics in the interior department, and even with engines (though Nissan's Endurance motor was quite good when it hit the market). You don't need to tell me about how Toyota's interior quality and fit and finish are slipping, I fully recognize that, I'm mostly comparing to Honda, who still builds interiors well (even if they have some strange design quirks) and Mazda (who, like you said, seems to be the only Asian bran who knows what they're doing.)

I'm not trying to single you out here, you make intelligent points, and I like to be challenged...

On any note, Tantan73, how about Variable Displacement? Cadillac pioneered that back in the 80's but it never caught on because gas went back to being a dollar a gallon. Then Daimler re-introduced it as we know today (even between that Mitsubishi played around with it.)

"Didn't say that the CTS, the DI V6 and the Lambdas are great products? But the brands are damaged and the competition is improving faster."
-The CTS is only in its second-generation and is on par with the 5-series, I'd call that fast improvement. The Malibu went from class basement to class competitor in one redesign. The Fusion is a one generation car and was immediately competitive (and though Ford changed names on its midsize, they had to because the design language changed so drastically). Hyundai is an exceptional company, and they've come a long way, but so far their only true standout performance has been the Genesis (and probably the upcoming Genesis coupe), everything else has been pure mimicry, and despite all the standard features, never quite matched up to their class.

American companies won't need Ch.11 (except for maybe Chrysler) once 2010 rolls around. By then, all the "poor" models will be redesigned/replaced, many of them will carry over the names (Cobalt/Cruze being the only exception I can think of), and many of them will be competitive by meeting or exceeding their competition (the Fiesta comes to mind if Ford, builds the interior as good as it looks, because it will be a better car than any of its competitors.)

"To my knowledge GM has more share in Europe than Toyota, Honda or Nissan. GM knows how to make cars that Europeans like and they do so under Opel and Vauxhall. Chevy is just getting a foothold over there now."

When GM bought Opel/Vauxhall (same cars in Europe) the first company manager was American and he was running Opel in American way, making cheap, bad quality cars. Car sales fell down. GM then changed him for German manager, and car quality went up, so did the sales. Opel is now under German leadership making good profits for GM. There was a lot of talk and articles at that time about Opel story and that Americans cannot run European brands in American way!

Chevy is available in Europe, but not American models. They bought Daewoo, and put Chevy badge on it. Now Chevy is sold in Europe as cheap Korean car..

There was a lot of talk in Europe last two years that Premium American Brands want to come in Europe. With import costs American cars have the same price as its European or Japan rivals, general European public opinion; they are just not worth of that money. Proof, if you compare sales of Lexus or Cadillac in Europe. Both brands are quite new in Europe, but Lexus is much more respected and sells more cars. Same is with Infinity.

Only Brand that sells same cars (not all the range and some engines are different) in Europe and America is Chrysler. And general European opinion about Chrysler, they suck. Lot of us thought that Mercedes is going to help them with build quality, but it wasn't so. They were still doing cars on their way and that is the reason that they are where they are.

Somebody seed that Jeep Wrangler is ultimate off road car. In Europe you wont see it, because we prefer Land Rover Defender or Toyota Hilux. In European eyes ultimate off road vehicles.

General European opinion is that American cars are bad (not just Jeremy's). There are some enthusiasts who watch too much MTV or American movies and they buy them selfs Escalade or H2, but there is not a lot of them.

"1487. That's right it's time to blame the media. The US cars are great we're just to dumb to know it."

If the shoe fits........

"now.. how many new Malibu's have i seen on the road so far? maybe 1 or 2.. how many of the new 08 Accords? almost every time i leave my house! (and no.. it's not a neighbors Accord that i see everyday"

you probably live in an import loving part of the country like CA. The sales charts tell us if a car is selling, not your personal experiences. I have seen 50+ Malibus on the road. I see a few every week. Retail sales were up 200% last month.

"Again, give me an American Automotive innovation that has been adopted by the rest of the world, not the other way around."

Anyone who makes a statement like that has to be ignorant. America didn't invent the car but it certainly led the way in terms of innovations for the first 5 or 6 decades of the 20th century. The starter, airbags, auto trannies and many other things came from the US. You have to study the history of automotive imagination. The fact that you think the Japanese are responsible for all the innovations we appreciate today explains a lot about your tenuous positions. You are a rookie in terms of automotive knowledge.

"General European opinion is that American cars are bad (not just Jeremy's). There are some enthusiasts who watch too much MTV or American movies and they buy them selfs Escalade or H2, but there is not a lot of them."

That means a lot to me. If Europeans don't like our cars than they must stink. Thanks for clearing that up. BTW, past attempts by American automakers to sell Euro products in America have failed miserably. The Astra isnt exactly lighting up the sales charts here even though it's a top seller in Europe. Since you are over there I would venture to guess you dont know much about American cars and have driven few of them. That really means you arent too qualified to inform me about how good or bad American cars may be. I dont think you want me to get into what many Americans think about Europeans. If I did I'm sure you would disagree with American's view of people in Europe. Different cultures lead to different perspectives. While there are many here who worship European's views of what a car shou;d be I am not one of those people. I know that Americans have different tastes than Europeans and that's why we have larger cars, crossovers, few diesel engines, etc.

"Porsche has been offering thier Ceramic Composite brakes for several years now, which are available even on the Boxster. And don't get me started on effortlessly revving engines with titanium bits, particularly from the Germans."

Ok you are a little slow so I will explain this further. I never said the ZR1 is the ONLY car with carbon brakes or that the Z06 is the ONLY car with titanium heads. YOu must think I'm stupid if you believe that these features are commonplace. They are only found on the highest end cars such as Porsches, ferraris, etc. The fact of the matter is that my point was that the Z06 and ZR1 are not low tech and you said nothing to disprove this. If Porsche and BMW M cars are sharing technology with the 2 Vette models I would say Chevy is right where they need to be.

As for MR shocks, the first car with this feature was the 2003 STS. Ferrari and Audi adopted the technology later. Do some research. The tech was developed by Delphi which was a subsidiary of GM. Face it, your stance it totally wrong and only an uninformed person could make such absurd statement.

"Where's our DSG Gearboxes, Intellignet Cruise Control ala Mercedes and BMW, four-wheel steering sports coupes and the like?"

do some research. If you did you wouldnt be here making such statements. The 300 and several Cadillacs have intelligent cruise control. GM had REAL 4 wheel steering on their last generation trucks and SUVs. It was one of the most advanced such systems ever offered. GM is producing more 6 speeds than Toyota. Ford was first with a 6 speed auto on a family sedan. Ford was first with a hybrid SUV. GM is first with a hybrid system that works for large vehicles. GM was using timing chains on DOHC engines when others were using less durable belts that required periodic replacement. Cadillac was one of the first to offer stability control (only S class had it before Cadillac models), Saab was first with ventilated seats and anti whiplash seats, Northstar was first engine that could run without coolant, Cadillac introduced auto high beams several years back, Ford introduced Sync, GM introduced Onstar, Cadillac introduced auto wipers about a decade ago, etc. The list goes on.

"Even if I concede your point that interiors are subjective (which I won't), you can't deny we're still behind in technology and gingineering when it comes to suspensions, engines, chasis and fuel economy."

More lies. For 2009 the Malibu/Aura get 22/33 while the camry and accord get 21/31. GM's trucks beat Toyota's in mileage and only GM has hybrid pickups and full size SUVs. THe lambdas get better mileage than CX-9 and CX-7. The cobalt XFE gets better mileage than civic and corolla. The CTS gets better mileage than the G35 and the camaro gets better mileage than the G37. The G8 gets better economy than M45 or any German V8 sedan. Yes they are behind on fuel economy. Your assertions about the chassis systems and suspensions being behind are unsupported and that's why you provided ZERO specifics. The sigma, zeta and lambda platforms are new and world class. Most affordable cars use strut front suspensions and multi link rears. This is common for import and domestic cars. BMW is just launching theri first car with a SLA front suspension. Cadillac has had that since the first CTS. Lincoln even had such a suspension on the LS. Up until now BMW cars always used struts in the front which most feel are a cheaper and simpler way to do a front suspension. As for platform rigidity you should note that Toyota and Honda often have to provide extra structural bracing to their sporty sedans (camry SE, TL, Maxima) and that typically deletes fold down rear seats. Meanwhile CAdillac (along with BMW) has been able to provide enough rigidity in the base platform to have a high performance sport sedan with fold down seats.

If you knew anything about American cars you probably wouldnt hate them so much.

"If they do all that, now they have a brand, a family of competitive cars, a story. If they keep building/improivng that family and the dealerships consistently for 20 years, then they are back in the game."

They are already back in the game. Cadillac gets respect from the automotive press. CTS is leading in RWD midsize sales and Escalade has been leading its segment for a while. The SRX hasnt sold well but has always gotten great reviews. A CTS wagon and coupe are coming out next year as well as a new, lighter SRX. No, the CTS isnt a flash in the pan.

BTW, the STS-V is very close to the M5 and S6 in terms of performance. It beat the CLS55 in a C&D comparo a few years back.

Its not going to take 20 years for Cadillac to be seen as competitive.

"Again, give me an American Automotive innovation that has been adopted by the rest of the world, not the other way around."

I've been trying to avoid the bickering, but I'm a little bored and thought I'd step in on this one.

Just about every automotive innovation in existence today came from the US or Europe. Japan is responsible for pretty close to zero. Seriously, think of an innovation that you believe came from Japan. Trace back its roots. You just might be impressed with what the US (and Europe) was really doing, several decades ago.

"I am convinced all three need to go through Ch 11 to fix their problems. Or at least 2 of the three need to go and the third uses the thread of ch 11 to get union and dealership concessions."

Maybe Chrysler needs Chap 11 but not the other two. If you had been paying attention you would know that they have gotten MAJOR concessions from the union and new hires make about $14 an hour. They are also in the process of shifting retiree healthcare costs to the union by setting up VEBAs. The stuff you are talking about is already happening. The product speaks for itself and more is on the way. Ford a new Fusion/Milan coming out for 2010 including a hybrid that will beat Camry in mileage. They also have a new F150 coming later this year and a new Taurus coming next year. In 2010 their Euro small cars arrive and based on what I've seen with the mediocre corolla Ford should have no trouble beating Toyota in that segment. Unfortunately people like you seem more than willing to ignore or disregard competent American cars while pretending that mediocre Japanese cars (corolla, Scions, accord, Camry, Yaris) are paragons of brilliant automotive engineering. Recent Japanese products prove to me that they have become complacent and over time I believe you will see how they will pay for that. The huge sales declines we have been seeing lately are strictly due to truck/SUV sales. Many of the bIg 3's cars are actually doing better than last year. Once the new cars come it will be a different landscape. Toyota/Honda already have to worry about Hyundai but they should be paying attention to GM/Ford as well.

"If America Builds a car that is BETTER (not close, or Equal) BETTER than what I can get from Germany or Japan in every way, I'll buy it."

If you wont buy a CTS or lambda or Malibu than I think it's safe to say you really wont ever consider an american product. I dont even bother comparing American cars to German cars for the most part because the price points are so different. With the exception of VWs the Euro cars sold here are luxury or sports car models that sell for far more than the average vehicle in America. I would hope a BMW is better than a Chevy when the cheapest BMW starts at close to $30k.

"You just might be impressed with what the US (and Europe) was really doing, several decades ago"

Thank you. Aside from VTEC and hybrid synergy drive I dont know what the Japanese have invented. MAtter of fact I believe that VVT was invented by a Euro manufacturer.

baron and tantan should check out this site:http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

it addresses a lot of the misconceptions you two have.

As for American engines lagging behind consider that:

-Gm's most powerful engine makes 638hp while Toyota's makes 416hp
-GM is using direct injection in 7 non luxury vehicles. Toyota (not lexus) has ZERO models with direct injection. Honda doesnt make ONE engine with direct injection
-GM most powerful four cylinder has far more hp than any Toyota four and is more advanced and powerful than Honda's only turbo four.
- Gm gets 260hp from 2L while Audi gets 211
-GM's newest V6 has dual continuous VVT while Honda's does not. Also, GM's V6 redlines higher than comparable Toyota and Honda V6s.
- GM has cylinder deactivation on numerous products. Toyota has it on none.
-GM, Chrysler and Honda are the only automakers that have engines featuring VVT and VCM/AFM tech.
-Lexus charges you about $36k for a vehicle with a high tech DI V6 and come March 2009 GM will sell you a vehicle with such an engine for under $25k
-Chrysler (and I rarely say anything positive about them) is getting more hp from a 2 valve V8 than Toyota is getting from a DOHC V8. Chrysler and GM's OHV V8s have better specific output than Nissan's 5.6L endurance DOHC V8.
-The G8's 6L V8 makes more power and gets better mileage than Infiniti's 4.5L DOHC V8. The G8 makes only 21 less hp and 6 less lb-ft of torque than the E550 and gets better mileage in spite of being heavier.
-The 2.4L used in the Cobalt gets better hp per liter and mileage than Toyota's similar engine in the Corolla S.

1487 said ... Its not going to take 20 years for Cadillac to be seen as competitive.

I didn't say anything about being competitive. I'm talking about being a desireable brand. Something that comands top dollar even with less competitive products, something that is desireable, that people aspire to.

I do believe that the CTS/CTS-V is TECHNICALLY roughly on par with 535/M5 at the moment (new 5 series debut next year). But if you ask anyone under 50 if they'd rather be driving a Caddy or a BMW 5, we all know what they'd say. The valet parking guy, we all know, will put the M5 up-front.

Yes, it will take 20 years of building consitent families of top notch performers for Cadillac to even have a seat at the table where BMW, Mercedes and even Lexus now sit. I hope they can do it, but I am far from convinced. They will find a way to screw it up - just watch.

I find all this dialog interesting as I consider my first Korean built Hyundai Genesis, which I drove this week. I don't care about brands, I am more interested in spec to spec comparisons.

The Genesis specs speak for themselves:

http://www.hyundaigenesis.com/#/performance/

Once they bump this car to direct injection next year the HP will be well over 300HP in a car that gets 27 MPG on the highway in V6 trim and over 400HP in the V8...

When GM makes a Turbo Diesel V6 for the Arcadia I will have one in my driveway.. otherwise forget it. (or just take the MBUSA 320 CDI and drop it in the Aradia)...

1487, I am not disputing any of your "facts". Yes, GM (and GM only) is rolling out good DI engines and doing is fast and broadly. They also beat the entire market, except Mercedes, going to full size 7/8 pax SUV/crossovers with the Lambdas, and in the CTS/CTS-V they managed to pull together a nice engine and a nice chassis. All indisputable. Chysler (even with their few years of MB boost, including donating the E-class underpinings to make the 300) are not making nearly as much progress.

The fact still remains that they have too many damaged brands, are losing market and are perceiver rightly or wrongly as inferior products.

99.99% of people on the planet can't even name all the GM brands. Even I lost count: Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, Saab, Opel, Vauxhall, Holdem, (Geo and Olds still linger, right), (are Issuzo and Suzuki stil in the fold). So that is 10 brands or more!!!!

What the heck is all that? Toyota makes more cars than GM with 2 and 1/2 brands: Toyota, Lexus, Scion.

Don't you see a problem with that? It is total insanity.

1487 You can't take one decent car and say the big 3 have their act together. You can sell anything at the right price. Let's look at the overall sucess of the big 3. As it realtes to statements like : You can't say it doesn't look good -- Some people like the way a Saturn centered speedo looks others don't. So we'll have to say it's subjective & people vote with their purchases.

You got to define what is an "American" car. Toyotas and Hondas makes cars in the US using American workers, while GM assembles many of theirs in Canada and Mexico, using Canadian and Mexican employees. Most Chrysler autos are NOT assembled in the US. So the fact that the "Big 3" are headquarters in the US is sole criterion for calling their products "American?" (Is Chrysler still headquartered in the US?)

"Aside from VTEC and hybrid synergy drive I dont know what the Japanese have invented."

Even those were simply implementations of existing technologies, not inventions. That's actually a bit of a weakness with the US and Europe. They (we) invent, but often aren't successful in bringing it to mass market. Japan is/was very good at taking those inventions and bringing them to the market.

Mechanic person, I agree with you 10,000%!!!!

This is the biggest problem with American cars. They don't sell their cars based on SUBSTANCE (because they lack any) but rather NOSTALGIA. Well, people don't care for nostalgia, and nobody remembers that Ford was the 1st American automaker.

"I didn't say anything about being competitive. I'm talking about being a desireable brand. Something that comands top dollar even with less competitive products, something that is desireable, that people aspire to."

When you consider that sales of cars like the Malibu, Focus, Aura and CTS are up this year I would venture to say that these cars are desirable to SOME people. Are they desirable to closed minded import lovers? No. Does that mean that they arent worthy competitors? No. Do you really think that the average person under 30 aspires to own a Camry or Avalon? I sincerely believe that some American products actually have more credibility amongts younger people than many Toyota or Honda products. If you have ever seen a show like MTV Cribs you will notice the vehicles are primarily high end European models but you often see domestic models (Escalades, Denalis, H2s, XLRs, classic cars, vettes etc.) as well. You NEVER see Japanese models. Why is that? I don't know many people my age who think the camry is something to aspire to own. It's for older, sensible family people who want to signal they are making a safe choice.

"They don't sell their cars based on SUBSTANCE (because they lack any) but rather NOSTALGIA."

That's a pretty short sighted and ignorant statement. That's probably why you provided no basis for your remark.

"1487 You can't take one decent car and say the big 3 have their act together. You can sell anything at the right price."

And you obviously can't read. When did ever say they make ONE decent car? CTS, Malibu, Aura, Corvette, 300, G8 and STS are a few off the top of my head. If we expand to trucks/SUVs I would add lambdas (4 models), Flex, Silverado/Sierra, 2009 Ram, 2009 F150, Edge, GMT900 SUvs and SRX. That sound like one to you? Why dont you try checking out some of the automotive awards that are handed out and see if the press agrees with your precarious position. The Malibu landed on 10BEST and Automobile Mag's All Star list. It also fared better than the Accord in MT's 2008 COTY competiton (which the CTS won). Get a clue. You are accusing the Big 3 of being behind the times but your jaded opinions show it's you who is truly out of touch. You havent responded to ANY of the facts I have presented to rebut your ridiculous arguments about American vehicles.

When you have more than vague statements and baseless generalizations let me know.

"But if you ask anyone under 50 if they'd rather be driving a Caddy or a BMW 5, we all know what they'd say. "

I am under 50 (by far) and so is my brother and we would both buy the CTS. Unlike you, I dont base my car choices on what others might think. I have my own mind. The 5 series is so ubiquitous in Philly that I would never own one. I dont get gratification from playing "follow the leader" when it comes to cars. Someone on my street who owned a TL and is probably about 50 years old just got a brand new CTS.

I attended a Cadillac event where the STS V6 was compared to the 530i and the ignorant attendees (a good %) where really surprised that the STS was so comparable to the 530i.

"They will find a way to screw it up - just watch."

If you say so it must be true. Cadillac's recent history (CTS, STS, SRX, XLR, Escalade, V series)surely backs up your assertions because their vehicle lineup is full of duds.

"The fact still remains that they have too many damaged brands, are losing market and are perceiver rightly or wrongly as inferior products."

Perceived by people like you. In case you forgot, GM still sells more vehicles in the US than anyone else. That means that there are LOTS of people who perceive GM's products as competitive. Please explain to me how the worst automaker in the US market sells the most vehicles. What part of this is lost on your? I have mentioned before that sales of many of GM's cars are UP in a down market. That's significant and it contradicts your statements about GM as a whole not being seen as a competent purveyor of vehicles. GM's share is down this year because of the collapse in the truck market. Toyota and Nissan's truck sales are in the toilet as well but they dont sell nearly as many trucks as GM and Ford.

"99.99% of people on the planet can't even name all the GM brands. "

You have proof of that? Half of high school kids cant tell you when the Civil War happened. What's your point? You are changing the argument. The post is about the general incompetence of American vehicles. Since you have failed miserably to support the idiotic Mechanic you have shifted the discussion to critiquing GM's overall structure. Notice, I never said anything about GM's brands OR their reputation in the US market. Americans are not known for attention to detail or researching anything so it's not surprising to me that the average American car buyer thinks we are stuck in the 80s with regards to the state of American carmaking. That's their loss. I am not snowed by the Honda/Toyota hype.

"So we'll have to say it's subjective & people vote with their purchases. "

Exactly, thats why sales of the Malibu, CTS, Acadia, Enclave, Aura and Cobalt are up this year. This is also why sales of Acura, Toyota and Lexus are down this year.

"That's a pretty short sighted and ignorant statement. That's probably why you provided no basis for your remark."

Mr. or Mrs. genius, it's about marketing and image branding. Toyota, for example, has branded itself in such a way that consumers associate Toyota with a producer of reliable and economical family cars.

What has Ford, for example, branded itself as? A producer of domestic vehicles? (refer to the Ford Fusion commercial where the actor claims he traded his import in for a Fusion...)

A producer of cars with the greatest 0-60 times? (refer to the Ford Edge commercial where the Edge beats a BMW X5 to 60mph)

A producer of cars that offer everything that every other car offers? (refer to the Mercury Mariner commercial where one of the feature highlights of the car was a moonroof, or one of the Fusion commercials where a featured highlight of the car as 29 MPG for the 4-cyl...My Boxster S got more than that). Those things don't make you special or put you ahead of the competition. People expect those things. To hype them is not going to turn anyone's head or bring any new buyers to the brand. All it is doing is telling current Ford buyers, "Hey! We're catching up to the competition! Or at least trying!"

The image that many Japanese companies have developed amongst consumers is that of VALUE.

I'm not picking on Ford here. This goes for the entire "Big three". For example, the entire big three tries to sell their cars based on sales gimmicks. The Cadillac CTS BOSE EDITION!!! WHOA, dude, a BOSE EDITION? That's SWEET! Except that nobody gives a flying crap about that and that doesn't bring new buyers in. Ford had the Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorer. Then they had another one where they were giving away Derek Jeter autographed baseballs with purchase of cars. All of Dodge's vehicles are retro-styled. Yeah, that's not nostalgia, is it?

Again on the point of nostalgia, GM is notorious for this. What was their Cadillac slogan a while ago? "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit"? Further attempts to sell the cars based on domestic lineage. "CHEVY: AN AMERICAN REVOLUTION". That's a good one.

So, Mr. genius, I hope I have opened your eyes. I didn't have time to elaborate earlier, but I didn't think I really had to.

"Please explain to me how the worst automaker in the US market sells the most vehicles."

Uh, by having a ridiculous amount of brands under their name and a ridiculous number of dealers to follow?

"What has Ford, for example, branded itself as? A producer of domestic vehicles? (refer to the Ford Fusion commercial where the actor claims he traded his import in for a Fusion...)

A producer of cars with the greatest 0-60 times? (refer to the Ford Edge commercial where the Edge beats a BMW X5 to 60mph)"

How about the Ford commercials with the (true based on DMV odometer readings) "most trucks with over 250,000miles on the road".

Or what about BMW touting their many models with over 28mpg? Which is really just them counting different trim packages over 3 model lines.

Or Toyota with that ridiculous song "I've got my MPG's".

Every manufacturer is trying to brand themselves as reliable, efficient, fast, etc. You name the positive adjective and the mainstream automaker, and I can probably find you a commercial where they talk about that. Anyone can take a few commercials, throw out the ones that don't support their view, and try to make a point. Its called bias, next time, try not to show it as much.

"The image that many Japanese companies have developed amongst consumers is that of VALUE."

Same with the Germans (VW), Americans (Last I checked a Focus started cheaper than a Civic or Corolla, got equal or better MPG, and had more standard features.), and Koreans. Like I said, throwing out the points of evidence that dont support your view, then making a point based on the remaining limited evidence only undermines your point.

"For example, the entire big three tries to sell their cars based on sales gimmicks. The Cadillac CTS BOSE EDITION!!! WHOA, dude, a BOSE EDITION? That's SWEET!"

Better than a sweet Nissan Sentra or Altima Special Edition, that, in reality, has different wheels, and is still mass produced, whereas those "gimmick" editions actually have limited numbers and a bit of exclusivity as such. What about the Civic Si Mugen? We'll give you a car with a lowered suspension and a body kit and charge you thousands of dollars extra. Nismo 350z? Anything Toyota "TRD"? I can keep going. Every mainstream manufacturer (with the exception of Audi, BMW, and Lexus, as far as I know) has released a "special edition" or something or other at some point. Again, you're throwing out evidence that doesn't support your point, and making a point based thereof.

"Again on the point of nostalgia, GM is notorious for this. What was their Cadillac slogan a while ago? "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit"? Further attempts to sell the cars based on domestic lineage. "CHEVY: AN AMERICAN REVOLUTION". That's a good one."

Every manufacture targets their audience based on what works in a given market. None of those adds run anywhere but the states. You want nostalgia? What about that BMW commercial where the guy buys an old 2002 in a barn and then BMW makes a point about how their cars still have the same DNA. Or how Porsche touts their Le Mans history and has old Porsches on display in their Auto Show displays. Hell, last year, Mazda had a 70's Cosmo and Mitsubishi had an 80's Starion Rally Car at theirs. More subtle, yes, but still playing on nostalgia.

If you're going to be so sure and smug about your points, don't leave out so much information.

"The image that many Japanese companies have developed amongst consumers is that of VALUE."

When did this discussion shift to image? I dont doubt that Japanes companies have a better image than domestic companies due to advantages they held in the 70s and 80s. Reputations and reality aren't always connected. You continue to shift the basis of the argument and now you are criticizing sales strategies and ad campaigns. Apparently you have never heard of the 25th anniversay edition accord, Coach edition Lexus models and other special edition imports. To a person like yourself that is completely biased and incapable of objectivity EVERYTHING the Big 3 do is going to be a problem. I dont evaluate cars based on ad campaigns or how much patriotism is conveyed in those campaigned. Personally I think it's stupid that some people wont consider a certain vehicle because they dont like the ads. I think that Toyota and HOnda have some of the silliest and most ineffective ads in the auto industry. I cant stand that stupid cartoon character that Honda uses in all its sales ads. Mr. Opportunity? Yeah, that is genius marketing.

"Uh, by having a ridiculous amount of brands under their name and a ridiculous number of dealers to follow? "

So they only sell vehicles because people blindly buy vehicles from the manufacturer with the most dealers? Stop with the weak rationales. Its really amazing that you and some of your cronies are truly this ignorant about the state of american branded cars in 2008. You really must live under a rock.

Mr. or Mrs. genius, you just can't stop showing your smarts, can you?

The topic here is "THE PROBLEM WITH DETROIT'S BIG THREE". I didn't comment on the actual quality of the vehicles or their merits. My point, which so easily escaped you as you attempt to finish off fights with others in this comment section, is that it doesn't even MATTER how good or bad the cars are right now. Brand imaging will sell your cars. Nostalgia is not one of those images that people give a care about.

Secondly, if you have 13 different brands worth of dealerships to satisfy which produce tons of cars each, you're likely to sell more cars than the other guy because he is only pushing 1 or 2 brands. Instead of saying GM as a whole sells more cars, why not compare individual brands? Isn't that fair? Chevy to Toyota. Who sells more?

Lastly, I am against no cars. Not that it would matter to you, but I intend to purchase a Viper in the Spring in place of my Lotus. If I blindly hated American brands, why on earth would I do that? The topic here is why American brands are failing. This is my reason why. The reason I did not comment on what's best or not best is because that's merely subjective and cannot really be debated.

Thanks, have a nice day.

"The topic here is "THE PROBLEM WITH DETROIT'S BIG THREE"."

And the line right after that is "Its vehicles are never the Best."

No where in the article does he mention that the cars aren't good because of "image". He argues that no American car (with the exception of the biggest of pickups) is the best available. He wasn't asking us why they're sinking, there are plenty of reasons, "image", perhaps, being one of them, he was making his own, direct point.

Easily summed up, the problem with the big three was a keen focus on trucks instead of really great cars. Now the truck market has all but dryed up. It's an issue of too little too late for the big three. I'm sorry if someone has already pointed that out.

The author is right, Detroit has nothing that kicks the crap out of the competition.

Toyota: Camry, Corolla, Rav4
Honda: Civic, Accord, CRV

Motown needs to push out products that literally demolishes the above models, especially in price, reliability, performance, and design. The CTS is superb, it shows GM has what it takes to hang with the best, but the CTS is not gona save us.

T and H crushed GM in the 90's but now its pay back time, since there seems to be a minor crack in design and execution at T and H.

In 1992 I sold my POS sunbird (kept the corsica) and went with a brand new Camry. In 1992 the Camry really did kick the crap out of anything GM offered. Drove the crap out of it for 14 years, the car has been so good to me, I decided to go for a another to replace it. I also replaced an aging caprice with a Rav4. It all started with one car that cost me nothing other than gas and oil changes.

GM needs to do what toyota and the camry did to it and its Chevrolet Lumina in 1992 (the car I shopped - and rejected), DEMOLISH it. The Malibu is nice, but with its unproven track record, merely matching the CamCordTima is simply not good enough. Remember GM can't just MATCH, they must DEMOLISH.

What hurt GM the most is the lost of the mainstream segment, not the lux segement. They need to attack the mainstream. The hyundai genesis offers a 5-series alternative at a 3-series price, and it got people talking (a good thing). Now GM needs to offer a CamCord alternative at civic prices.

Some of their current products are not bad but not extraordinary like it needs to be. I mean just look at where they are now.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122083202593108477.html

Call him a hater, but Detroit gave them a reason.

1487, maybe you can understand this: the main objective of a car company (or any other for profit company) is TO MAKE MONEY.

By that measure, the "big"-3 are the among the worst companies in the world.

Now, how do car companies go about making money?

Cars and engineering is one aspect.

Dealership and distribution strategy is another.

Reliability/Support/Warranty is another.

Brand/Image/Market Positioning/Reputation is another and a key one.

The Hyandai Genesis 4.6, by many accounts is a better car (feature/performance/quality), with a better warranty, etc, than a BMW750. But it sells for less than half of what BMW sells the 750i for. It is not that Hyandai doesn't want to charge more - it is that they can't. Why? Brand, image, all these things you insist on not considering. Maybe 10 years from now htey can charge 2/3 of the BMW price. Maybe in 20 years they can charge 75%. But they have to be perfect at it - car after car with high quality.

Now, you can say that the 300C is close to being as good as a 750i. But it sells for even less than the Genesis. Why? Because Chrysler can't charge more.

Your comment about the Camry not being desireable by anyone under 30 is right on. It is not aimed that way. The Scion is the brand that No ONE over 40 buys.

You need to understand the concept of brand velocity. Hyundai is on the ascent with high velociy. Audi is on the ascent in the US. Toyota is stable. Acura has been in slow decline.

GM, Ford, Chrysler, have been is steep decline as brands.

It is virtually impossible for brands to make money when they are in steep decline and losing share. Virtually impossible. There is no reasoble scenario under which any of the big-3 can be highy profitable like VW and Toyota and BMW are. None.

Without profits there is no investment. Their brand velocity is way negative and accelerating.

That is a bad place to be. And it is a shame, because, I grant you, that some of the products are now word class (CTS, Lambda, etc).

It is like the ugly girl that had a make over and is now extra cute, but everyone already has a date for the prom - she may have to stay home. Too little too late.

I hope they make it, but I'm not optimistic.

"'The topic here is "THE PROBLEM WITH DETROIT'S BIG THREE'."

And the line right after that is "Its vehicles are never the Best."

No where in the article does he mention that the cars aren't good because of "image". He argues that no American car (with the exception of the biggest of pickups) is the best available. He wasn't asking us why they're sinking, there are plenty of reasons, "image", perhaps, being one of them, he was making his own, direct point."

Congratulations. Another genius. The topic is about why the big 3 are sinking, and HIS REASON is that their cars are never the best. MY REASON does not have to coincide with his reason, but it should fall under the topic subject, which it does.

My goodness. Never thought I'd have to explain something so simple.

And they do have some of the best in class. The Malibu is just as good as a Camry or Accord (Edmunds says so), and better than the Altima. Name me a CUV that can comfortably handle 7 adults and more cargo than GM's lambda CUVs? And the CTSis constantly getting raves about being on level with world class competitors like MB and BMW.

I wouldn't say the Edge is the best package, but it's one of the top sellers in the segment. No one will ever outdo Ford in the Truck categor- ever (though that's not very comforting, considering gas prices). And Chrysler has Jeep- no X-terra or Land Rover or FJ Cruiser can outperform a Jeep. No minivan will ever outsell Chrysler's either.

Allright, so maybe GM is the only one of the three really bringing out the competitive cars, but all three have come a long way in a short time. And soon they will be on level with everyone else. -

NEVER. From someone that gets to drive all types of cars on a day to day basis, I can honestly say that there are HUGE gaps for domestics to fill even beyond those that are noted in this article. For one, drive a Malibu and an Accord, Altima, or Camry brand new and then with 30K on it. The foreign vehicles drive almost like they did when new. Whereas the domestics drive like the imports do with 130K on them. Can't forget resale value as well.

The Malibu is far and away GM's best car ever, one the needed if they hope to avoid bankruptcy. Let's see if they can do the same thing with the upcoming compact Chevy Cruze. GM finally realized that the reason all the Japanese brands do so well is because they make such great bread and butter family cars! Until GM can do that, I'm keeping my Honda Civic and have no intent of buying American.

I agree with the author of this article.

I believe both domestic and import(*) cars have their share of good points and bad points, but in the end imports(*) have better ratings, reviews and reliability.

Read the model reviews and the consumer reviews for two similar cars.

Ex: Jeep Compass and Toyota RAV-4.

The lowest consumer complaint for the RAV-4 is about the fabric on the seat "pilling." Nothing about transmission problems or anything major. Just a simple dislike in how the seats wear. In fact, the RAV-4 had less than a handful of complaints.

The Jeep Compass had MANY complaints. A lot of times I kept seeing the word, "Lemon," "Took back to the dealer and still no fix," and most of all, "major transmission problems."

I'm not saying that the RAV-4 is perfect or even better than the Compass, but if you look at multiple reviews, sales and reliability of the two cars, the RAV wins.

Now I know some may say that you can't compare a Compass and a RAV-4, but I was using them as examples to show a real life example of what I saw.

My first car was 1999 Pontiac Grand Am. I loved it; it was powerful, comfortable and pretty well built. There was one major flaw - It was a GM.

I traded it in for a Mazda Protege (two different kinds of sedans) because I wanted to try a foreign car. The Mazda has always been reliable and I have never had it in the shop except for oil changes. I will definitely purchase a foreign car again.

Maybe Imports are the new "American Car."

(Imports meaning Japanese only; not talking about any other manufacturing region.)

I didn’t know one would be allowed to write an article like this. Maybe I should ask if it was a safe thing to do. Has anyone made such plain comments on the subject before? I don’t know. I think the best thing GM did was install OnStar. I’d feel an oh so teeny bit better about buying a GM if I knew I had a hot line to a tow truck. It wouldn’t make sense for me to have it in my Accord or Frontier.

I should have added that I don't care about what cars others buy. I'm glad that there are people who like the Big 3. I'd hate to see them fold. I just don't have the time or money to work on them or have them worked on anymore.

gosh, my first car is american car... what a piece of you know what! problem after problem. I now drive japanese car for 5 years, the only problem i have are normal wear tear. i have change oil and change timing belt, get a set of new tire and replace brake pads !!! zero mechanical problems .

CHILDREN!
BUY AMERICAN MADE CARS, SUPPORT AMERICAN JOBS AND AMERICAN ECONOMY BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. THE ONLY REASON TO BUY EUROPEAN CARS IS TO SHOW OFF. ARE YOU THAT PATHETIC?

MECHANIC!
WHY WOULD ANYBODY PAY YOU TO WRITE CRAP LIKE THIS. IF YOU MAKE A GOOD LIVING OUT OF WRITING GARBAGE LIKE THIS, WITHOUT AN OUNCE OF SENSE IN IT, THAN THIS WORLD IS COMING TO AN END. BUT MY GUESS IS YOUR PAYCHECKS LIE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN $25.50 AND $29.25 JUST FOR THE HOURS YOU PUT IN.
YOU ARE SHORT SIGHTED AND IGNORANT AND FRANKLY I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD CALL THE COLLEGE YOU ATTENDED AND ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK...

I like Japanese cars and American cars,but if Japanese cars are so superior,why are all the high dollar classics Chevelles and Camaros 40,000
to 80,000 dollars?I mean where are all the Datsun 240zs and Supras or even the "Run Forever"
Corollas,Mazda rx3s,or even Subarus?Wow I cant even think of a Japanese or German car that did not become a disposable toaster oven eventually.
Maybe detroit isnt so bad after all,its amazing how Cavaliers and Camaros are still on the road from the Eighties,where are the Maximas,Sentras,or Corollas or even the Mitsubishis from the Eighties.What about the Accord from the 70s or 80s?Umm amazing how short term memory serves so well,or should I say short sighted,lol.Thanks Curtis.Atlanta,Ga