Time To Buy American

Give me something that will compete with my Subaru WRX and I'll buy American. I'd love to buy a Focus SVT, the sweet little ride that the Brits can buy, but American's can't. Yes they can compete with the whales of the road, but I don't want a family sedan.What about the young American, the ones that they need to attract as consumers. That's where they've lost out, and that's because they didn't pay attention to the young demographic for the past few decades. Now all those ricers are moving on to Infinitis and BMWs and not Cadillacs or Lincolns.

Tell me how buying a car "from" Detroit supports the US economy more than buying an "import" and I'll consider it.

Should I buy an F150 made in Canada, a Silverado made in Mexico, or a Tundra made in Texas?

True story, Mr. mechanic:
Person X bought a Saturn ION, and went through two of those lemons until he had to legate his money back via lemon law. Then he bought the first year Malibu Maxx, well suited to my needs, which rewarded me with decent freeway cruising and mileage, and a ream of service orders an inch think for its 55K miles. Chevrolet did not fix the car's problems, but canceled it, leaving their improved but useless sedan his only choice.
By the way, that Maxx had a Mexican engine which gave him no trouble! Not so the REST of the car.

The Maxx's now cruising in Texas while he drives the top rated first year AWD CUV, built in Japan, bought from an American dealer and serviced by American mechanics. That setup is working much better than the Detroit "experiment" he went through - very few problems.
He'll be happy to consider Detroit again when they make something like what he's now driving.

"Here's one American who's shopping for a new American car right now. What are you doing?"

--Laughing at Mechanic's new gullible article.

Estreka, how about a Malibu built in the U.S. or an Aura built in the U.S.? You can pick examples of cars built in the U.S. from nearly any manufacturer. What about parts content? That is where the real difference happens.

My Chevy Cobalt has never gone wrong except for a dead battery and a busted lug due to an incompetent service. My grandma's Rav4 can't spend more than a week outside of the dealership without something else going wrong. From my experience, Japanese does not equal reliability and American does not equal poor quality, at least not when applied to anything built recently. Japanese reliability is a stereotype built on old experience that is no longer relevant today.

i really wish i could buy a new car
id love to have a new camaro
but im stuck with an inherited toyota with its lack of reliability
this is my first week of having it that the check engine light has been off.
its pitiful

LOL @ the last paragraph! =Þ

So what, it takes the impending collapse of the American auto industry to finally get us to see the big picture? I suspect it will be to little too late to finally understand that keeping dollars in the US economy is good for us and our national security. Maybe, our companies will be bought out by our beloved BMW. I'm sure then that cars like the mkz and aura will sell once they have propeller badges and are made in South Africa.

Your argument is noble and your intentions are good, but the argument that people should buy admittedly substandard goods out of civic duty is absurd.

That argument is EXACTLY how the industry got in this trouble to begin with. By refusing to buy them little ferrin' cars, scores of patriotic Americans in the 1970s and 1980s enabled American car companies to build substandard POSmobiles and to manage their finances sloppily. Meanwhile, the Japanese and others made meaningful strides in the science of carmaking.

True, domestic automakers need help, and true they need to survive. But it is absolutely false that they should be held to a lesser standard.

Considering that the Camaro along with the Impala and LaCrosse are built in Canada, along with the Chrysler LX cars, and the Ford Fusion is built in Mexico, I don't see how buying American really helps America. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan on the other hand, build almost all of their cars here, on American soil; they help America more than do the Big 3.

I agree. I myself drive a Ford Fusion and its a damn sight better than any Camry.

I have had no major problems from any of my Fords...and Ive owned TEN(10+) of them. So I beg ppl out there not to just say that american cars are crap (many do without having any real knowledege of them) and test drive them against their rivals...Nine(9) chances out of ten(10) there will not be a HUGE difference in quality between them.

So before we kill millions upon millions of jops in the United States and Over seas/borders lets REALLY see what the big three have to offer in their case.

Don't care. Won't buy an American car any time soon. I assume my son (to be born in the next few years) will remember American cars the way I remember AMCs - vaguely.

Next few DAYS, not years. DAYS. Oops.

"Give me something that will compete with my Subaru WRX and I'll buy American."

Chevy Cobalt SS, the fastest front wheel drive production car around the Nurburgring. That good enough for you?

Those of you that are arguing that buying American won't help a damn, you're missing a rather crucial point.

By purchasing American, its not that its going to save US economy directly, but that its going to save GM/Chrysler/Ford from certain doom. Your money from buying your Toyota may help the economy a little bit because money is changing hands, and there's that 5 or 6% interest rate on a loan from an American bank, but the point is that GM/Chrysler/Ford aren't getting any of that money. The Big 3 must sell cars to survive. If they dont, they go bankrupt. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, lose jobs, and we lose hundreds of BILLIONS from out national economy. So while buying an import might not directly sink the economy because you're still buying SOMETHING, you are indirectly killing American automakers, thereby indirectly killing a portion of the American economy.

By purchasing from the Big 3, you aren't buying substandard products. Go check Consumer Reports, the Fusion is highly recommended and the Camry is not the last time I checked. There are is a significantly higher number of recommended vehicles made by American companies this year than even 2 years ago. CR has even said that the reliability on new Ford models is significantly improved, followed by GM to a lesser degree, while, I must admit, Chrysler is still lagging behind the industry average.

Build quality between Ford and GM has vastly improved, with Chrysler still lagging, in a very short period of time as well, we're not talking minute differences, we're talking leaps and bounds. Go compare the interior of the new Malibu with the previous generation. Or how about the Fusion with a last generation Taurus. Then go compare the interior of both of those models with their competitors. The Camry lags behind both in interior quality, the Altima is on par with the Fusion and slightly behind the Malibu, and the Accord beats the Fusion and only edges out the Malibu.

There are American cars that have a ways to go (I'm looking at you Cobalt/Focus/Caliber) but the replacement models have shown significant promise, if only the manufacturers can survive until then.

My BMW 5-series blew out a tire the moment I drove it off the dealership lot. The Dealership was no help at all, they wanted me to pay for the tire. The week after, the check engine light came on.
An American car like a Chrysler Sebring would never do this.

Perhaps a minor point, but for accuracy's sake: The Ford Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 chassis (the previous generation). And I think the Malibu and Aura are worthy of their competitors, though they too are based on foreign designs (Opel). But GM owns Opel anyway, so are they American or German? And is the Pontiac G8 American or Australian? What about the Camaro?

So the definition of what really is an American car anymore has gotten murky. For my purpose, it's one engineered, built and sold by an American company - badge engineering doesn't count, but joint development does.

I love American cars, and I also love foreign ones. It just depends on the car and what I'm looking for, and which one appeals to me the most for when I'm in the market.

This dire situation has many causes: poor long term planning by the automakers, unions with a stranglehold around the companies they work for and the power to bleed them dry, over involvement and micromanagement by the federal government, foreign automakers not having to pay union labor, and foreign automakers getting tax breaks by states trying to woo them into building their next new plant in their state. I understand the economic incentive of tax breaks. They're great for business *and* individuals (as corporations don't actually pay taxes. People do). But it seems domestic companies are rarely offered similar incentives - instead, they're just squeezed even harder.

And due to some of their past strategic mistakes, (a recent one is investing too much of their profits into building more truck based vehicles over the past 10-12 years, instead of keeping their car platforms competitive at the same time), the domestic auto companies have lost nearly a whole generation of buyers. These potential buyers have grown up under the perception that a foreign car is better than American. Whether or not that perception is still true is subjective, but too many people won't even consider an American made vehicle. And that is tragic.

I sure don't want to see our auto companies fail, but I also don't want the government to have even more influence in running them, as they will surely do a worse job. The auto execs are apparently desperate and begging for cash from the same bureaucracy that contributed to their problem. And that is the only way they'll get federal money - by caving into the Congress who'll just love the opportunity to gain more power and control over private industry in the process. And this is a big conquest -- they'll never relinquish control later on. How will that influence the type of vehicles we get to choose from in the future? No one knows for sure, but it's unlikely that we'll see the kind of excitement, creativity, and ingenuity from Detroit's better days.

Perhaps bankruptcy would be a better option, as that would at least allow them to reorganize and reduce the bloated legacy costs they have to support now. They would likely emerge as stronger companies.

But I think this bailout is just as good as done. Few politicians have the guts to say no. And assuming in a few years that these loans are paid back, the theory that taxpayers will get "paid back" is a myth. We who pay taxes won't get tax refunds or lower taxes. Congress will just spend the money on other programs, just as they always have. Politicians just love to spend other peoples' money. And lately, when it comes to fiscal responsibility, it hasn't mattered who's in charge of Congress, Republicans or Democrats. They've both been guilty. It is one reason that Republicans are out in the cold now. They became too much like Democrats.

The 5-series would have run flats :D
The US auto industry was too focused on making huge SUVs instead of any actual decent performance car. The Camaro is a glimmer of hope but I'd consider the new upcoming Genesis coupe first.

Oh and as a teacher, I doubt I'd lose my job due to a GM bankruptcy. This article belongs in a satire section.

Ok, so show me the American compact sedan that rivals the Mazda3, and I'll pay attention.

Contrary to the Mechanic, I'll argue that it's American's civic duty to buy the best cars. If that means buying a Honda Fit over a Chevrolet Aveo, then so be it. The country gains nothing buy subsidizing substandard products.

Capitalism works because the companies that are not competitive fail, die out, and clear the playing field for those companies that have a clue about what they're doing (and do it consistently, not just when things get really bad every 2 decades).

Let the Detroit 3 fail, let them get rid of their over sized dealer networks and let them tell the UAW to go packing. They'll be able to come back as smaller, better companies that produce better products. And if they don't, it will be their own faults. And America will be better off either way.

You want to keep jobs in America and promote our economy? Then cut taxes and let American's innovate, give entrepreneurs an incentive to take risks, and let the free market be free. Anything less is just a stop gap.

"Tell me how buying a car "from" Detroit supports the US economy more than buying an "import" and I'll consider it."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06131/689345-185.stm

Quoted from article:
Mr. Doyle says the institute's study shows that Toyota in 2005 employed roughly three times more U.S. workers, on a basis of per car sold in the U.S., than Hyundai Motor Co. Each of the Big Three manufacturers in the same year employed roughly three times as many U.S. workers, on a per-car-sold basis, as Toyota. "What's better for the American economy?" Mr. Doyle asks. A GM car "built in Mexico with 147,000 jobs back here in America or a Honda built in Alabama with 4,000 or 5,000 jobs in America?"

"And the thing that needs to change most is, well, us. And by us, I mean you."...lol
No, the thing that NEEDED to change, was the way that US auto manufacturers built there cars, and what they built. There was a reason why Americans stopped buying American cars, and that was reliability, resale value, and fuel efficiency, to name the first few that come to my mind. The Mechanic understood this in his first article that i read of his, but perhaps his conscious is getting the better of him now. Its to late now to fix this, and our good money should not be thrown after bad. I understand the economic ramifications of what this will mean, but i dont see what can be done.

Jaguar8, this may sting a bit, but your Fusion--like every other Fusion--was built at Ford's Hermosillo, Mexico plant. And its unibody and suspension are shared with the Japanese-designed Mazda 6.

But Ford, at least, has given some indication that they won't piss away their bailout money in the exact same fashion that emptied their pockets in the first place. A streamlined global product line and NA-market subcompacts are a great start. GM, on the other hand, has done nothing to suggest that you, I, and every other taxpayer are buying them anything but time.

Re: the article itself, what does The Mechanic suggest for the enthusiast who actually wants, um, an enthusiast's car? As in, light weight, rear-drive, and manually shifted? The Corvette, fun as it is, feels fragile, lacks primary-control finesse, and is just too much car for fun on a narrow switchback. The Kappa twins? Stupid top, no trunk, pickup-truck gear ratios. The "imports," meanwhile, offer a tasty smorgasbord of Z4, S2000, 350Z, RX-8, MX-5, G37, Boxster, et cetera.

Surely, those who love to drive are better off making alternative "patriotic" purchases, such as buying local produce, domestic electronics, and American-made clothing. And by the way, if you aren't, you're no better in your Malibu than the guy in the Camry who is.

Wow, I can not believe how ignorant and close-minded some people are on here. "Let the Big three fail, they deserve it." You're saying that over 3 million auto related jobs deserve to be lost (That's just in the US). The Big 3 provide so many other companies business it's scary. You talk about economic troubles now? If the American car companies tanked the ripple effect would bring the world economy to a stand still.

The US government just gave AIG, one freaking insurance company, an $85 BILLION bailout.
You think if AIG went away the world would crumble? Not likely, yet they got their money.

Maybe you should look in to how foreign governments help out their respective auto companies?

"Ok, so show me the American compact sedan that rivals the Mazda3, and I'll pay attention."

Show me the American car company that developed the primary underpinning of said Mazda 3. Oh, thats right, the Mazda 3 is on the Euro Focus platform. The same platform and quality and reliability that is coming when the Euro Focus hits our shores.

Here's where I differ from the Mechanic. I do believe that purchasing an American car is just as important as buying local and all that (which I do, my car is American, I only eat at local restaurants, purchase local produce, etc.), but I still dont believe in throwing money into sub-par products.

To clarify what I was trying to get at above, there are good American cars on the market and there are bad ones. Buy the good ones. The new CTS, the new Malibu/Aura/G6, The G8, the Fusion, the Edge (well, once the Sport model comes out which will update every model with tighter suspension settings), the Flex, the Challenger, the Astra, just about any American truck, and the one or two that I probably missed, are all worthy competitors.

A few of the "bad" ones have significant updates coming. The Cobalt will become the Cruze. The '09 Focus is going to be a '10 Focus with the Euro underpinnings. For those of you who think the Aura should be down here, look at the new Opel Insignia, which just won Euro COTY, which is likely to replace the Aura.

Not to mention the new stuff coming up. The Fiesta, the Camaro, and the Volt.

As pointed out, American car companies are lacking a serious, RWD enthusiast car. But I think thats a sign that they are focus on what needs to be done, because those cars are lower volume niche machines.

Nobody is asking you to throw your money at crappy cars. I would never consider a Caliber or Avenger, but no one is asking you to do that. What the mechanic is asking is that you buy,or in the very least, consider American cars in categories that they are competitive.

A few things to consider:

1) A CTS will probably far outlast a 5-series, which is good enough reason to buy one. But most buyers in that market don't care because they try to keep up with the joneses anyway. So as long as a BMW will outlive their lease, they will go with it. Sad, but true. Not to mention, there's still the image problem that Cadillacs (and Lincolns) still have versus the Euros...

2) "American car companies are lacking a serious, RWD enthusiast car." Solstice GXP/Sky Red line. CTS-V. Shelby GT500. Pontiac G8. Chrysler Charger/300 SRT8. Not to mention a $23k Mustang GT that one can easily and cheaply modify into whatever they want or need it to be. Open up your car mags or read this site more in depth. You'll be surprised.

3) However, a problem with buying American in this uncertain landscape is that with the death of GM/Ford/Chrysler comes the death of suppliers. Which means the possibility of a scaracity of parts, lower quality of vehicle servicing, and most definitely, loss of far too many jobs. People second guess that, and will buy foreign because those companies are not as threatened right now, nor are their suppliers.

In the end, I wholeheartedly support buying American. My first car was an SN95 Mustang, and while the interior was far from stellar, nothing came loose, nothing faded, and the upholstry was some of the toughest (as far as durability) that I've seen in a 10-year-old car. Paint held up. Engine/trans held up. It was not a piece of crap. However, it just didn't fit my needs any longer, and there were no sedans in my (used) price range, that were American, that also fit my needs. Hence my current (British) car. If I had $50k to burn on a car, I'd most certainly look at a CTS, as well as the foreign cars.

The problem is not that America builds bad cars. To sum up what most, if not all of you are saying, the American auto industry is too focused right now, too poorly structured on the business end, and thus does not provide Americans cars that particularly fit our needs. They've gotten better, but need a lot of improvement. Bankruptcy, as much as I hate to admit it, may be just what they need to change their act and get with the times.

Well said honorsystem. I'm a very happy Fusion owner. I tried the Fusion just to try it. Never thought I'd be excited to buy a sedan, but after the test drive I was!

Also, rule of thumb for pretty much any car model or maker: Never get the first year of a car. As an engineer, I fully realize how many possibilities there are for something to go wrong in a car. Something is bound to get over looked. Just look at customer reports, as much as I hate to recommend them, for data to back this up on reliability. First year cars are public mules.

Lol, honorsys you are funny. The mazda 3 chassis underpins the european ford focus, NOT the other way around. The G8 is actually an AUSTRALIAN car imported to the united states, dito pontiac GTO.

I myself will eventually be looking for a small fuel effiecent hatchback. Lets look at the american offerings shall we? The aveo and the g3, both of which are based off of KOREAN designs (and are pretty horrible imho). The saturn astra is not a bad car, but it's european.

I will be sad to see the big three go, but it's pretty much only for the incredible engines they provide. The turbo for in the cobalt ss, the LS series, dodge's Hemis. I will miss the age of v8 muscle, but their time is coming to an end.

I'm still waiting for someone to point to a 5 door 300 HP AWD wagon that can match the STI. Where's the compact RWD sedan that goes up against the 3 series?

Wacky ideas American car companies won't accept:

People like nimble handling
People like hatchbacks
People like smaller cars
People like nice materials
People like feeling like they're in a purpose-built car, not a combination of things from a parts bin.

When we get another car it be a manual and it'll probably be a WRX, STI or 3 series sedan. There's nothing American-made that compares to those cars. Nothing.

America left those of us who like to drive and have money and an education. I can save a grip getting a Mustang GT but in the end it's a cheap feeling car that's not really fit for someone that wants the basis - HIDs, manuals, etc,

Here's an American who's buying a Japanese Car. First off, that Patriotism BS won't make me buy an American car, no matter how cheap I get it, and second it is no one's duty to buy an American Car cause they're American. You buy what you like and what you want. Freaking period. Even if the my Dollar bills have American Presidents' faces all over them.

Funny rather than useful Article. Very hilarious indeed. Touching? ... Gross.

Let GM get itself out of it's own demise, real Americans have found a way around it. Greed will be their Death Bed as few are the cars we can count as Reliable or overall appealing in our "America".

Funny but it seems more and more people closes their eyes to the sad truth we no longer have anything we could stand for as our so called Americans have lost their way... I guess one can't hide from the truth for long, can we?

It's sad to think the big three may fold, but it's they're own damn fault for not giving us the products we want.

Despite the unions sucking the life out of them would it really be so hard for Ford, in the year 2010, to put full independent suspension on the Mustang? Or for Chevy to put a little bit nicer interior in their $120 Zr1? Those both seem like no brainers to me.

The answer is to let them crash and burn and hope that they arise like a phoneix (screaming chicken?) From the flames.

The writting has been on the wall for decades.

Comment by: sealclubb3r.

"Chevy Cobalt SS, the fastest front wheel drive production car around the Nurburgring. That good enough for you?"

-----------------------------------------

Oh you mean that "Paid For By Dead-GM's Ridiculous Hype" on the latest version of the ugliest, most horrifying thing ever conceived, called a Cobalt SS?

Come on man. Are you serious? I have yet to see anyone that really knows about true sporty-affordable cars who would EVER think of buying a Cobalt SS instead of a WRX, or an SI, or even a much better over-all everything (despite Cobalt's higher power) newest Ralliart, and the list goes on and on and on... No, I doubt your American Tuna Can will compete in any way with his WRX. No sir.

This is ridiculous how you want us to buy american vehicles when they ALL rank the lowest in reliability and fuel efficiency and more... They all suck except the malibu and the cts but other than those two asian cars will be top choice. Toyota and Honda are by far the best companies to buy vehicles from, not gm/chrysler/or ford. Give consumers better cars and then we'll negotiate.

"Lol, honorsys you are funny. The mazda 3 chassis underpins the european ford focus, NOT the other way around. The G8 is actually an AUSTRALIAN car imported to the united states, dito pontiac GTO."

Um, no, the C1 platform that underpins the Mazda 3, Euro Focus and Volvo C30 was a platform development program headed by Ford of Europe that used Engineers from Volvo for safety, Mazda for body rigidity, and Ford for handling. The sporting handing that we all know and love in the Mazda 3 is the result of Ford handling engineers who developed the original "control-blade" rear suspension that was updated for the C1 platform. Mazda only tweaked settings for the Mazda 3, they did not develop the suspension platform, they are responsible for how solid the car as a whole feels. The first car with the C1 platform was the Euro Focus C-max. Everyone thinks the Mazda 3 platform underpins everything because it was the first major production vehicle to get the C1 platform.

And, yes, the G8 and GTO and numerous other cars are Australian or European, thanks for pointing that out. However, they are still owned and sold by American companies so buying them still benefits the American car company under which they are sold, so I'm not sure I see your point.

"People like nimble handling
People like hatchbacks
People like smaller cars
People like nice materials
People like feeling like they're in a purpose-built car, not a combination of things from a parts bin."

All true, to an extent.
Nimble handling is crucial, but I like a less jarring ride for driving over expansion joints and sinkholes down the 101 and 405 freeways I live near.

I like hatchbacks, but only recently have they come in vogue in the U.S. Before the 2000 Focus, there was what, one major car with a hatchback version? I think that would be the VW GTI.

We like smaller cars because we hate high gas prices. Everyone in my family is 6' or over, I also happen to like legroom AND headroom.

Can't fault nice materials, but with Toyota's interior quality these days, how can you argue that that is the downfall of the US automaker when the Malibu outclasses the Camry's interior and the Corolla has almost as much cheap plastic as a Cobalt?

People like being in a purpose built car, yes, but every manufacturer uses stuff from parts bins, up until recently, every Honda I saw had the same shift knob on its manual transmissions. Every Toyota had the same cheapo-CD player. Parts-binning is not an American phenomena.

Let me put it this way. I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy American, you're going to buy what you're going to buy regardless of what I say, but don't try and stop people who are considering purchasing one with stale arguments about "All American cars are X, or They are all Y."

"This is ridiculous how you want us to buy american vehicles when they ALL rank the lowest in reliability and fuel efficiency and more... They all suck except the malibu and the cts but other than those two asian cars will be top choice. Toyota and Honda are by far the best companies to buy vehicles from, not gm/chrysler/or ford. Give consumers better cars and then we'll negotiate."

Have you even picked up a Consumer Reports lately?

<---- needs an edit button

I like hatchbacks, but only recently have they come in vogue in the U.S. Before the 2000 Focus, there was what, one major car with a hatchback version? I think that would be the VW GTI.

I'm going to correct myself before everyone else does. I should mention the other major one that died off just prior to the Focus, the Civic hatchback.

Someone here mentioned the Cobalt SS. After reading how great it is in all the magazines I briefly considered going to test drive one.

Since I like to get a new car every 3 years I strongly consider resale value when making purchase decisions. It is pretty foolish not to.

Here are some numbers from ALG (Automotive Lease Guide)
2008 Cobalt SS
21,970 new
8,150 after 3 years

2008 Civic Si
21,745 new
11,875 after 3 years

The difference is $3725 over 3 years. Over $100 a month difference. You would have to be complete moron to buy the Cobalt.

I think people are focusing on the wrong issues here. It is definitely true that American auto-makers do not make any real sport sedans, top-end luxury sedans, or any real performance cars. But here is the deal: you add all those segments together and it is less than a fifth of all vehicles sold per year in the US.

The problem here is not people buying a 3-Series over a CTS or a Miata over a Solsitce; the problem is people buying a Pilot over an Outlook, or a Camry over a Malibu. Us enthusiasts that comment on these blogs are people that the US auto industry has never really catered to. The problem is the uninformed public that doesn't set foot on a US-brand auto dealership before buying their new Honda or Toyota. Most people are not knowledgable enough about cars to notice slightly harder plastics on the door trim and would be vastly happier with the lower price of an American car yet still get the same long-term durability of a Japanese competitor.

The Big Three have made some terrbile decisions over the years, but we also need to remember that they are saddled with unrealistic worker contracts and get absolutely no help from the American government (Germany pours millions into their automakers for example). Also, GM and Ford have made incredible progress over the last couple of years and deserve praise for that.

The answer here is not to go buy the many sub-par American cars, but to buy the American cars that truly are competitive rather than writing them off because of brand. Let the Cobalts and Focuses die, but don't kill the Malibus and Flexes. This alone would be enough to save the auto industry.

No more freaking handouts! I'm sick of the government doing this. I was against the initial handout, and as everyone can see, it hasn't done jack. Banks are hording their money tighter than ever before. The big bailout was supposed to loosen the lending purse strings to get the economy going again and it's clear that's not happening.

No way in hell the American car companies deserve a dime. I don't care how big they are or how many people they indirectly employ. I don't live in a socialist country and I don't want to live in a socialist country. Capitalism works, and sometimes it works in painful ways. Like lots of businesses failing because of greed, short sightedness, or incompetence. But the capitalist way is to let them fail. Maybe they'll learn from their mistakes, but if not there is always someone right around the corner ready to fill their shoes.

I think American car companies are really starting to manufacture some great cars now, but it's too little too late. The big three's lack of competent leadership is going to be their downfall. So be it. It's a painful lesson, but one maybe our country needs to learn. You don't see the Japanese or Korean manufactures looking for handouts. No, because they make product that people want. It's that simple. There is no such thing as a company being too big to fail. We are going down a slippery slope with these handouts, and it's a slap in the face to our founding fathers and the principals this country was built on. No more handouts, not for any company no matter how big!

"You would have to be complete moron to buy the Cobalt."

Actually you would have to be a complete moron to buy a new car every three years. Why? Unless the car is a lemon that is just throwing money away. I don't care what the resale value is, all cars depreciate, and unless you're leasing, buying a new car every three years is just plain dumb. That's why so many people are broke in this country, because they spend their money foolishly on "stuff" rather than saving it. "Frugal" is a foreign word to most Americans.

So, if someone likes the Cobalt and buys it with the intention of holding on to it for five plus years like they should, resale value should be a very small part of the equation.

I will be buying a domestic Big Three Vehicle next time. I have had my share of Japanese "Junk" from the over rated imports Toyota and Honda. Honda transmissions in their Odysseys and Pilots are nototrious for failures. Twice on my wifes van. Let not forget about the famous Toyota engine sludge cover up that claimed the engine in my new Camry.
I have been stupid in only considering imports. I have been a faitful reader of Consumer Reports and Edmunds. Only thing is that most of the people who comment on here are import owners with bias opinions. I have yet to meet a person in the real world that has the same opinions as on this site. I will take my wifes Honda Odyssey in for service and none of the people that are having warranty work done are raving about Honda. Then I thought to myself "why am I sending my money out of the country that I love and cherish to support some other government and its people halfway around the world?" Say what you want, Honda, Toyota, and the rest of those bums don't give a crap about America. This is payback for WWII. I for one will not be sending my money 'out' anymore. I learn from my mistakes. I am not going to be embarassed driving around an import from now on. I will supporting the Home team from now on.
Now if only I could find someone to buy my Odyssey before the transmission fails again. I have a new Dodge Ram on order. It is made in Warren Michigan. Same with the Camry. I will probably donate it to a charity or junk it. 55k miles and it is ready for the scrap heap. New CTS-V on order. Made in Lansing Michigan.
I feel better already.

Let's all spend our money in new cars from Detroit so that its worthless managers will not fire thousands of American workers.
Like paying ransom to terrorists...

And something else: Why don't you drop all foreign brands from all model tests, long term tests and compare/promote only American cars? Start doing that and people will start considering American cars more seriously if they don't know about the competition...

well lets not just talk about reliability here, i am sure everyone has had bad experiences on their rides, don't matter whether its a Japanese, American or German. if i am buying a car, i know for a fact that i am probably gonna be stuck with it for the next few years. i want myself look good driving it. (look good in it and feel good driving it) what i am saying is that the American car industry needs people to design the cars that look good inside and out. put some new ideas and innovations together and try to think outside the "American" box. why do most american cars have to have red rear signal lights? the same set of bulbs that do braking and signaling. i remember when the first lexus IS 300 came out, everyone kid in town went out and buy imitation taillights just to pretend to be the IS. how about people buying white headlight bulbs to look Xenon. its really simple that everyone wants to look good in their new ride. i would not wanna buy a car with 2 flaps of red which called taillights when others are having LEDs that make all sort of shapes that look really good. do u know any american cars below 30k that got projectors or even xenon. not even the newest mustangs. the big 3 have just been living in their own world and not realizing what people really want nowadays. look at the mazda3 or a civic and compare the interior layout/ materials with the focus and u will probably know why people would rather spend a couple grands more and turn japanese. even for people who are rich enough to pay the extra dough to get more, american brands just cant come up with new gadgets to satisfy those techheads. on the other hands, competitors are inventing self-parking system, self-turning headlights, blind spots radar, self-braking and it even detects whether your eyes are looking forward. all of these might sound too crazy, but i guess people are sick of getting the same thing decade over decade. american cars just need to stop following japanese and german and come up with new design and new innovation to make out ride look good and do more.

I think that GM,Ford and Chrysler make fine cars. Anyone here remember the Great Muscle toyota from the late 60's or 70's ?? Well, they used to make trash then and they still do.

It is just that some of the cars from the big three weren't just quite as good as they should have been.So toyota,honda and the other importers got away with making their "state of the art" vehicles. The Big three invented the auto industry as we know it and now they should be given a chance to fight back.

They have been given a thorough drubbing in sales recently and they deserved it. We should give them a chance to fight back, they are making some fine cars now, like the New Malibu, the CTS-V, the Dodge Ram. The cars in the pipeline are even better, consider the New Camaro, The VOLT. They are going to be fuel efficient, and with oil back at 57$ a barrel, we shouldn't be complaining.

The quality from the big three is much better than toyota or any import. I have worked with these companies,at their suppliers, What GM or Ford would scrap, Toyota will put in a showroom.
I have no bias here, heck I am Indian.

They do make fine cars,fuel efficient ones too. Give them a much deserved chance.

The Big three have invented many soulful categories of cars which we wouldnt have thought of 30 years ago. If you leave the auto industry to only the Japanese, eventually the "soul" of your car will be gone.

You might as well have to buy a "car", just like would buy a bag of "flour". No soul, no individuality, the Japanese would love that, one big parts bin from where you make one product.

Ever noticed the top bosses in toyota or honda, at all their non-Japanese ventures are "ahem" NEVER non-Japanese ??

Wow y'all are lazy. I have an 01 Crown Vic P71. Bought it from the County Sheriff. Yanked the piece of crap modular 4.6 (281) and 4R70W, put in a 5.4L Supercharged from a Lightning and a Tremec T56 and completely reworked the suspension and brakes. I did this under 8K too. I'd like to see y'all build up a piece of shit import that can begin to keep up with my 500 RWHP or even come close to outhandling my "Big American Car" at that price. Other than that, y'all who are complaining about American cars should shove it up your ass and learn to wrench your own cars... You'll save money over an import, support the domestic auto manufacturers, and maybe just maybe learn something and build some character in the process!

Funny thing about the Fusion, hecho en Mexico.

USA! USA!

No bailout out for edmunds.

The Mechanic, is now a certifiable idiot.

One that only writes Flamebait posts at the direction of the Cheifs at Edmunds. With this one single post, he clearly proves he stands for nothing.

After all, how could he, after bashing american cars in not ONE, but TWO "brilliant" pieces:

Are American Cars Dead? where he argues that almost 0 'american' cars are made in america.

So now he wants us to buy 'american'? After telling us there is no such thing? (save for a handfull of examples?)

or maybe

Detroit's Big Problem: Its Cars Are Never The Best.

Which begs the question, Why Buy if their not the best? If costs are equal, why not buy the best?

so what gives?

What gives? American ad money drying up?

Or is The Mechicanic someone with absolutely no prinicples, who stands for nothing, and only makes posts to get a reaction?

Ethier way, if edmunds is running low on chase. I say he should be the first to go

What am I doing? NOT buying a car, American or otherwise right now. And even if I was car shopping, there are no "American" brands on my list of cars I'm interested in. The Big Three created this bed for themselves; now they can lay in it. Save the patriotic palaver for the campaign trail, Mechanic. Enjoy your American car (likely built in another country).

WHY SUPPORT American? when most American cars are made in MEXICO And CANADA. The big 3 took their car and truck factorys to mexico and canada and now they want us to help them? no thanks.
I will buy a car or truck thats made in AMERICA, import or not as long as its made in America.
Support the car maker that puts food on American familys table, simeple as that.

People have this image of bankruptcy as a black hole from which companies never emerge. Bankruptcy (Chapter 11) is exactly what GM/Ford/Chrysler need in order to reorganize their operations without pressure from creditors. The fact that bankruptcy would void all union contracts helps too...Basically, for these companies, especially GM, bankruptcy is an opportunity to shed poor contracts, reorganize, and come out swinging.

eclogite - more American cars are built in the US than Toyota or Honda. Everyone loves the Prius (built in Japan) and the GM lambda re popular (built in the US). Yes the big 3 made bad decisions years ago but if people have a blind hatred of them even when the facts bare out that some of Detroits finest takes on the world - Malibu, CTS, Camaro, Silverado, probably Volt and Cruze. Never mind all the European designed cars like the Fiesta, Corsa, Insignia (European Car of the Year!). So save the blind hatred and don`t ask for sympathy if your job ever gets shipped abroad.

My last 2 cars were American (Escape, SRT-4), before that a Japanese car (Miata), and now my wife and I both have German cars (2 C230 coupes). None of my cars have had any significant problems nor seemed to be inferior to the competition at the time they came out. What bothered me is that when it came time to replace the SRT what they had was the Caliber version. Great engine but sloppy handling by comparison and somehow a newer interior that felt even cheaper. I wish they would have invested in a better interior and made it lower like a wagon and not quasi SUV. Also looked at Civics and was not overwhelmed by the quality/price scenario, loved the Fit but manual Sports were beyond scarce here. On the way home one day saw the green C230 on a lot near my house, went and looked at it, excellent condition, drove like a dream, still firm and sporty but 10x more comfortable for commuting, hatchback versatility, 40K miles and less than $15,000. We liked it so much we bought a second one. Dodge could have done so much with the Caliber but they did a half baked job and it felt like it, ditto Ford and the poor Focus that has been half heartedly updated instead of replaced. They say it would cost too much to do it on the new Euro underpinnings, yet if they had maybe the Focus could have been worth Mazda 3 or Civic money instead of having thousands of dollars of rebates to help move them. I hope that the Big 3 don't fold, but I can't say that they have much I would consider right now, now that new Fiesta hatchback in lime green on the cover of Motor Trend coming in a year or so, that's looking promising...

"Tell me how buying a car "from" Detroit supports the US economy more than buying an "import" and I'll consider it.

Should I buy an F150 made in Canada, a Silverado made in Mexico, or a Tundra made in Texas?"
**************************************************
You should absolutely buy the F150 or Silverado. The Tundra made in Texas creates profits for a company based in Japan, and that's where the money goes. Sure, a good portion of vehicles produced by Ford, GM, and Chrysler aren't manufactured here; however, the profits from the sale of those vehicles stay here and support the "Big Three". That's why you need to buy a Silverado or F150. BTW-I live in Indiana, and there are plenty of Silverados built just a couple of hours north on Indianapolis.

Quote from opfreakx:
"...Or is The Mechicanic someone with absolutely no prinicples, who stands for nothing, and only makes posts to get a reaction?"

Judging from the 50 responses (and counting) to this blog, he must be doing something right....

Besides; isn't that the whole purpose of blogs?

And ironically after my Mazda 3 comment I read a headline on MSNBC that says "Ford to slash Mazda stake to raise cash." Ford sells of 2/3's of it's stake in Mazda, hope they don't sell the rest...

Ignorance to buy imports? Has anyone driven a Honda Fit versus a Chevy Aveo? There wasn't much of a decision for me which I would purchase after driving them. The only reason Chevy sells any Aveos is ignorance.

"Your argument is noble and your intentions are good, but the argument that people should buy admittedly substandard goods out of civic duty is absurd."

Whats absurd is your lack of comprehension skills. Did you read what he wrote? cars like the CTS, MAlibu, Enclave and all Detroit pickups are as good as anything in their respective classes.

This type of article is likely a major disappointment to the IL faithful who revel in Detroit bashing and suddenly all the folks who normally worship anything on this site are up in arms and venting about 30 year old stereotypes.

Also, why is everyone talking about the Aveo? Why focus on one of the cheapest cars from Detroit that is really from South Korea? He never said EVERY single American branded product is equal to or superior to the Japanese competition. He just said in most categories there are compelling domestic options. The Aveo isnt that great but its one car. There is still the Malibu, Aura, Fusion, Flex, Edge, lambdas, CTS/STS, Vette, G6, 300/Charger, Chrysler vans, etc.

I cant believe Merecedesfan said that there are no high performance products from Detroit. What would you call the CTS-V and corvette and cobalt SS? Or the upcoming Camaro SS? Those arent performance cars?

You cannot have any debate with people who think point of assembly makes a car American. The profits made from Japanese cars goes to Japan which means the US government doesnt get a penny. Also, as others have mentioned, many cars assembled here by foreign automakers trail domestic products in content from this continent. Assembly in the US is a great thing, but that doesnt make a Camry an American car. Also, with the exception of US only models like SUVs, pickups and Acuras most engineering is done in the home country. That is especially true when talking about European products built here. A Gm product made in Mexico is still largely designed in the US by American engineers and designers.

First off, we need to dismiss these ridiculous stereotypes that are being spread by ignorant domestic car bashers and the Toyota loving media. I have to say the overall media coverage of this whole mess has been totally biased against the American automakers. Lets look at the lies:

1.No competitive product- flat out lie. Check out lambdas, CTS, Malibu, Flex, Fusion, etc.

2. Behind on efficiency- this nonsense is relentlessly pushed by the bigots and media. Just check out the EPA site for yourself. Within most respective classes there are domestic products will class leading offerings.

3. When they build a car that lasts I will consider them- most people who make these statements havent owned a domestic vehicle in many years. If the quality is worse than average one should ask why Big 3 warranty coverage is as good or superior to the imports. Why does chrysler offer a lifetime powertrain warranty? Why does GM's powertrain warranty cover you up to 100K miles? Cars today are generally reliable, period. Extended warranties from the dealer are dirt cheap for the skeptics out there.

4. They only make gas guzzlers and abandoned the car market- I suppose in the minds of some the Focus, Fusion, CTS, Malibu/Aura, vette, Cobalt, 300, Camaro, G6/G8, etc. are V8 powered trucks but in reality they are cars. I would love for ONE person to prove to me that Detroit stopped investing in cars.

At this point people are actually just coming up with reasons to justify their irrationality. Too many Americans seem to have a personal vendetta against these companies are in fact rooting for their demise. 30 years of brutal Japanese competition (by an industry that the US allowed to rebuild post WW2) has finally taught the lessons they needed the learn. The products have gotten better and more efficient. At this point people are dwelling in the past and refusing to accept the progress that's been made.

I don't think alot of you understand this very much. Cars are made in all different places, sure more american cars should be made here, putting our people to work, but nonetheless, think about it a little okay?

when you buy an american car, wherever it may be manufactured, who do you think makes the money on it? the factory worker in mexico, or canada, or perhaps the corporation headquartered in detroit, dearborn, or auburn hills Michigan.

Think before you make bland statements and perhaps have a little pride in the country of which you enjoy the benefits. and if you don't enjoy it here, then get the hell out!

This is just funny...and sad. I would buy an American-made car if one appealed to me at the time that I was in the market for one (2006). At the time, there was little choice in an American car that was worth driving (and I tried dozens of makes, including all the major American brands).
The only saving grace will be a temporary bail-out for the Big Three (if it happens) and getting some of their offshore products over here to compete (Opel, Ford Fiesta etc) quickly. Had the Fiesta (or Opel Astra, with a TDI engine) been available at the time of my past purchase, they would have been likely candidates.
The Big Three 'upsized' vehicles at a time that was both silly and unlucky for them, given the surge in gas prices this year, even if the petro-economics have relented somewhat with the economic melt-down. Gas will still rebound to $4/gal by next summer.
Sorry, we need a more compelling reason.

What I love is people who complain about a) overpaid UAW workers and b)Big products made in Mexico. How can you complain about those two issues? If you are anti-UAW and high labor rates then you should revel in the fact that the UAW (and US healthcare costs) have forced the Big 3 to open plants in Mexico. That is just smart business and a way to level the playing field against the Japanese who dont pay pensions for US workers and have few retirees to worry about. Don't praise the Japanese automakers for opening plants here. They had to for numerous reasons. One reason is that some of the gas guzzlers they make in the US have no other market and have to be made in this country. No one in the rest of the world wants a Pilot, Ridgeline, Tundra or Titan.

"The Big Three 'upsized' vehicles at a time that was both silly and unlucky for them, given the surge in gas prices this year, even if the petro-economics have relented somewhat with the economic melt-down. Gas will still rebound to $4/gal by next summer. "

Typical of anti big 3 types you dont mention that most vehicles get larger and heavier with a redesign. Ever seen a 2008 Accord? All automakers have been moving towards larger vehicles such as crossovers and pickups in recent years. Look at the majority of the nameplates launched by the Japanese in the last 5 years.

If gas does go to $4 a gallon its a good thing the Malibu/Aura and 2010 Fusion get better mileage than the Camry and Accord. Its also good that the Traverse and Flex get better mileage than the Pilot. Also good that the GM pickups get best in class mileage and will offer a hybrid model. Also good that the only two compact SUVs with hybrid options are American.

I think its "silly" that people make all these claims about poor efficiency without any numbers to back up their assertions. Poor compared to what? The Pilot gets 16mpg. Wake up folks, just because its got a Japanese badge doesnt mean it gets 40mpg. The Malibu has the same highway mileage as the media darling Honda Fit in spite of weighing 1000lbs more and having more power. Is that an example of good GM engineering or poor Honda engineering?

i've been in the market for a compact suv. finally, for the 09 model, ford updates its escape with improved safety ratings, new transmission, and new fuel efficient 4cy/6cy engines. something that can compete with the rav4, crv, and forestor. and something i would consider keeping long term. of course, wait until next generation japanese models come out.

my point, big 3 always seems at least one step behind.

by the way, the new ford escape omits rear disc brakes but instead gives us a capless gas tank. stupid.

Worst call to action ever!
"Hey, we failed at making an automobile that will last more than 3 years, that doesn't rattle after you drive it off the lot and doesn't have to hit the shop on a regular basis. Now we want you to make the third largest purchase of your life to keep us in business, and don't worry about your mortgage payment that you're struggling to make. We make crap, but are you going to let us die?" Saying it's on us, the people, is too easy. They'll get their bail-out with no strings attached, and they'll be fine for another couple decades.
This article was obviously not proofed by the editor. If it was, I'm sure there would have been a re-write demanded. It's obvious you wrote the first thing that came to your head and didn't sleep on it before you turned it in. Because if you did, you would have realized there is a much better way to make a call to action. Calling us, your readers, unpatriotic and failures for not going even further into debt is an outrage. Do you honestly think the auto industry is the only part of the economy suffering?
It is blatantly obvious that if the Big 3 go under, the impact will be devastating on the economy. But what you're asking is unrealistic and clearly not thought out.
And so you know, if I could afford it, I would trade my vehicle in for an American vehicle. But that's not an option right now. I'm trying to keep the bills paid and food on the table. You see, some of us are already going through what the Big 3 'might' go through if the bail-out doesn't happen. Should give you a list of what you need to buy from me to keep my head above water? Should I make 'you' feel like an ass because you're not buying my American made product?
One last thing. One thing I couldn't have agreed with more (from another publication), is that American car companies need to shave 1,000 lbs, offof all their vehicles, NOW. That will be a big difference maker in how we compete performance wise. Just my two cents.

"Your argument is noble and your intentions are good, but the argument that people should buy admittedly substandard goods out of civic duty is absurd."

Whats absurd is your lack of comprehension skills. Did you read what he wrote?
-------------------------------------------------
Oh, 1487. Actually, mine are quite good; yours, as always, seem to be tainted by selectivity.

The last part of the piece (roughly 10 paragraphs) focuses on why Americans SHOULD buy American machinery. A key point in this argument is this statement: "Even if they are still a smidgen behind those Asian benchmarks, that smidgen should easily be overcome by patriotic duty." That one sentence introduces the last 7 paragraphs, all of which discuss why Americans should want to (and in the past have been convinced to) buy American cars SIMPLY out of patriotic duty.

I have no problem arguing that Americans should buy American cars. That makes sense. But I have EVERY problem with the argument that Americans should buy SUBSTANDARD American cars out of patriotic duty.

1487, you should know that there are several American cars that I wholeheartedly like, the Lambdas being the best example. For these cars that are best-in-class and for similar cars that are class-competitive, yes - buy the American one.

But those that lag behind everyone else in reliability, design, etc, should be left on dealer lots just like their foreign lackluster equivalents. Where there is a clearly better product, Americans should be free to purchase that product regardless of the country from which it came. Every automaker has its duds...and my opinion is that if the American auto industry is so riddled with duds that the failure to buy duds will kill them, then they deserve to die.

Thankfully, this is not true.

The Mechanic correctly pointed out that many Americans pass by today's good American cars because of a leftover poor experience from the days that I mentioned in my original post when good Americans bought crappy American cars out of patriotic duty. This is where The Mechanic's argument should have stopped. Instead, he continued into the other crap with which I take issue.

He's running for office. He wants to be the Auto Czar for Obama, so he has to flip-flop on issues like Obama does.

I know it may sound very trivial, but people are going to buy what they like, and usually this tends to be stylish, decent-performing, well-priced cars, and those cars aren't American cars. Bottom line, I will not hesitate to say that Americans have produced some truly fantastic cars in the last 12-15 months, but they're focused. Maybe too focused.

What I mean by this is that American design teams seems like they don't care about styling. They build a reliable car that won't break down, but very few now take the time to craft "sexy" cars, and believe it or not, some of us don't buy a car because it gets great fuel economy or has a great warranty or even because it's built very durably; some (actually most) people buy cars now based solely on the looks. Is it sexy? Will my friends or significant other like it or want to be seen in it, or more importantly, do I look good in it? Will people look at me when I drive by? It's so trivial, but that's where I believe American cars fail. It's so pitiful that great cars get looked over because of the lack of curves and body lines, but it's true. Look at how long it took for Chevy to redesign the Malibu, and since then look at how the sales and reports of the car have been phenomenal compared the last couple of generation. It's sexy now, so everyone notices the great things about it, and the fact that it's made well should damn near make it irresistable to those who value being seen, so why is it still struggling? Well, we have this other problem: stereotypes.

Does ANYONE have anything good to say about an American car except an owner or a manufacturer???? How many times in your life have you dealt with biased criticism involving American cars? Sure, imports at one time were in fact made better, but years have passed, research has been done and I'll be damned if American cars aren't as well made as foreign cars now. I honestly don't think that a Camry is 10 times more car than a Malibu or CTS, but it outsells it. Why? Because stupid people still have this notion that foreign cars are the only cars that can give you 100,000 miles with minimal issues. Believe me, if you ask every Camry owner how he likes his car, at least 1 of them is going to have a horror story, and the same goes for American cars, so what's the difference? The fact that the Camry has a body kit, 270 ponies and an attractive interior? There's just not enough options given by these companies to even raise interest to see if it's even true. Things still look the same, so people believe the cars must still be built the same.

The Big Three going down would obviously be catastrophic. People still don't understand why the government bailed out AIG, which is a TRILLION dollar company, and why it would affect them, so I don't expect for people to understand the sort of financial and job market damage losing a company the size of GM would do, and that's not even including the other 2. At the same time, American companies aren't really helping themselves that much. Foreign car companies have seemingly endless options for whatever you want, be it a 12 cylinder AWD coupe, a twin turbo FWD 6 cylinder sedan or a RWD 4 cylinder 6 spd roadster. I compare it to an over zealous athelete that turned his back and forgot that the fans are the ones signing his checks, and needs a wake up call. All this time, they've been building cars that people don't want, and it seems like they just keep pumping this eyesores out as if to say, "They'll all eventially come around." And now they're running out of money cause people aren't coming around, and shouldn't be forced to. Hell, there's too many brands with too many options to take that tactic. American car companies want Americans to buy their cars. Ok, so make some cars that Americans WANT to drive, not have to because they feel it's their patriotic repsonsibility. That's BS. Do the research, do the census reports and design something that not only your mother would drive, but something your son would. Until then, they're either going to wake up and listen to what consumers want or they're going to fall, regardless of the bailout. People still aren't going to buy the cars, and they're going to need more help, again and again, until they either change their image, or fade away.

Buy what you want to buy.

In the case of cars, nearly 50% of Americans buy American made vehicles offered by just three companies - those 50% can't all be stupid - just maybe Detroit actually has some satisfied customers out there - none of which read Consumer Reports.

For example Toyota and Nissan have found out the hard way that Americans do like their American pickups - why on earth would you buy one of their trucks? Name one compelling reason. There aren't any and no one buys them.

It's bizarre how uptight everyone gets at Detroit automakers for providing great health care, good working conditions, top wages, great retirement plans ... essentially being socially responsible in the midst of a country with horrid health care, declining wages, crumbling opportunity... the list of our national social failures is endless.

Rant on, nothing will change the facts that supporting the homeboys is good for you and good for your country...what's good for your country is good for you.

A little footnote: What's good for Mexico is good for us a well, they are our neighbors and one of our largest customers - American cars are in the overwhelming majority in Mexico and they hold up well and are held in esteem. What do the Mexicans know that maybe you don't?

that's why he's a mechanic and not an economist

blueguydotcom wrote:

"When we get another car it be a manual and it'll probably be a WRX, STI or 3 series sedan. There's nothing American-made that compares to those cars. Nothing."

A WRX and a 3 Series are from different segments.

And your argument is very subjective. My co-worker drives a 06 STI and I can find many vehicles as rough and with as cheap of an interior. What I can't find is many vehicles with the same price tag with as much road and wind noise.
The WRX is not a bad car, but it sure lacks in many aspects. Sure, it has a flawless drivetrain, but that's about it. MPG is horrendous for a 4 cyl.

Now lets go to the acclaimed 3 Series.
People will do anything to drive a BMW. They are willing to give up reliability just to have that emblem.

I had one. The dashboard always looked like a Christmas ornament, all sensors would go off randomly. Every oil change was followed by some sensor revision. Problems included intermitent A/C, dead batteries and clutch issues.

Believe me, I'm not a "buy american" guy. I currently drive a Lexus IS350. Why? Because is better than the 3 Series.

For decades, the Big 3 sold us the idea that it was patriotic to buy American and they sold us 3 decades of unreliable cars. But today Ford and GM sell better cars than 10 yrs ago.

Furthermore, buying foreign because is better is also wrong. Look at Mitsubishi: They are facing their own burden with unappealing, unreliable cars. Isuzu? Almost gone. Susuki? downsized, agonic.

Nissan has their own flaws with the Maxima and Altima.

I bought Acura because of the wrong reasons: The upscale version of Honda, wow! must be super reliable, functional and fuel efficient. It was functional and fuel efficient (running on 91 octane) but it was unreliable. I had transmission issues and replaced all 4 discs at 30k mi.

People are defaulting to brands because of uninformed believes and sometimes it just doesn't work.

I can't think of one American car I would possibly want to buy, new or used. One slightly possible exception is Subaru Legacy. But the new Impreza is so roomy...

and a true patroit should tell the US govt not to waste money on the big 3, because they failed. why use our tax $ on their mistakes???

one last thought... many other car companies are having disappointed sale figures, that means people are just NOT buying cars.

Should we also take a look at a LARGE number of comparison tests to see how the Americans fair? "We as an automotive online resource are going to place the Americans consistantly in the bottom of the comparison tests. However, we are going to then ask you to spend the money you don't have on said bottom ranking cars in order to save them from their own deisgn flaws. Sould you not purchase these vehicles, we will then proceed to call you unpatriotic and will finish it off by saying you, the American people are the reason the Big 3 failed."

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.autos_crisis_causes/6.html

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.autos_crisis_causes/3.html

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.autos_crisis_causes/2.html

"One last thing. One thing I couldn't have agreed with more (from another publication), is that American car companies need to shave 1,000 lbs, offof all their vehicles, NOW. That will be a big difference maker in how we compete performance wise. Just my two cents."

Is the average American car much heavier than the average import? I dont think so. Shaving 1000lbs from ANY vehicle is extremely difficult. Automakers brag about reducing weight by 100lbs.

BTW, I expect more pleas for "buy American" from the automotive press as they realize a nice chunk of their ad revenue could disappear. They have spent years tearing down American cars (even when not justified) and now they are realizing it may cost them, literally.

"One last thing. One thing I couldn't have agreed with more (from another publication), is that American car companies need to shave 1,000 lbs, offof all their vehicles, NOW. That will be a big difference maker in how we compete performance wise. Just my two cents."

Is the average American car much heavier than the average import? I dont think so. Shaving 1000lbs from ANY vehicle is extremely difficult. Automakers brag about reducing weight by 100lbs.

BTW, I expect more pleas for "buy American" from the automotive press as they realize a nice chunk of their ad revenue could disappear. They have spent years tearing down American cars (even when not justified) and now they are realizing it may cost them, literally.

"I have no problem arguing that Americans should buy American cars. That makes sense. But I have EVERY problem with the argument that Americans should buy SUBSTANDARD American cars out of patriotic duty."

When did he use the word substandard? I must have missed that. Here is an example: The Fusion has less hp than a Camry (its also cheaper and handles better) so its hard to argue its totally superior to the camry. IN terms of functionality, styling, safety and reliability its on par with the Camry. One could plausibly argue that the Camry is a SMIDGEN better because it has 47 more hp. That doesnt mean the Fusion is a substandard, 3rd world car that is unfit for your driveway. That's just one example. I cant think of many more like that. When it comes to crossovers, pickups and midsize cars you would be hard pressed to find many top notch foreign models that are CLEARLY superior to the domestic offerings.

"Where there is a clearly better product, Americans should be free to purchase that product regardless of the country from which it came. Every automaker has its duds...and my opinion is that if the American auto industry is so riddled with duds that the failure to buy duds will kill them, then they deserve to die."

Name three vehicle segments were there is absolutely no competitive domestic vehicle. And leave out vehicles that are over $80k where the Americans and Japanese really don't compete with the Europeans. I get your point but the problem is that there arent many cases where your argument hold water. I will agree that the Sebring and Avenger are inferior to the Accord. Problem is you still have the Fusion, Malibu and Aura in that class and they are NOT clearly inferior to the Accord. The one segment where the Japanese have an advantage is small cars, but even that isnt as large as the media portends. All cars are so competent today that there are few vehicles offered that are totally unacceptable. When you look at Ford and GM's lineup in 2008 there really aren't many vehicles that would qualify as "substandard" or "duds" by anyone being objective. And please dont tell me they are substandard because they have hard plastics when Toyota, Honda and Mazda use just as much hard plastic. I have been in several late model Toyotas and after inspecting them I cannot imagine how any domestic car hater can lecture the Big 3 about interior quality. I think some folks are so focused on hating American cars that they overlook the mediocre offerings being peddled by Honda and Toyota. Has anyone seen the 2008 Pilot?

"and a true patroit should tell the US govt not to waste money on the big 3, because they failed. why use our tax $ on their mistakes???"

Do some research please. The money is a loan and the Dems want to use some of the $700B that is already appropriated. Loans get paid back. Its not hard to understand. They loaned Chrysler $1.7B and made $350M in profit and got the loans paid back 7 years early. Your call that a "waste" of money?

Also, have you seen the projections for lost revenue if all three companies collapse? Check it out and tell me which option is cheaper. If people lose jobs and start collecting unemployment and stop paying income taxes that will cost us money. How can people not get that?

regardless the quality of the products, it doesn't matter if i (as a buyer) want to save the american's auto industry. it is the UAW doesn't want to save the auto industry.

in average (total compensation package), GM has to pay about $75/hr when Toyota (in U.S.) only pays less than $50/hr for an employee. how many of us will have our employers to continue to pay for our healthcare after we retire? how many of us are "guranteed" to be paid twenty-some dollars just to do some no-brainer jobs with a high-school degree? of course, they will bankrupt the big 3.

at least one of the big 3 HAS to file bankrupcy to let the UAW know that less consession means $0. IMHO, UAW should be abolished altogether.

If you're going to ask people to buy American then at least suggest an American company AND an automobile built in the USA.

I refuse to believe that buying a Korean-made Aveo is going to help Chevy/GM. Given how much they are losing it almost seems like GM is losing money to subsidize jobs in South Korea.

"I get your point but the problem is that there arent many cases where your argument hold water."

But do you really get my point?

Re-read the quote I selected: "Even if they are still a smidgen behind those Asian benchmarks, that smidgen should easily be overcome by patriotic duty."

THIS is my problem.

The Mechanic argues that in the FEW instances where my argument DOES hold water, an American consumer should STILL purchase the American car out of "patriotic duty."

THAT is hogwash. You're right, there are bad Hondas and Toyotas. Leave them on the lot, I agree. But leave the domestics right next to them, is my argument. That's NOT The Mechanic's argument.

fenixfire077 it's comments like those that just make you sound like an ignorant redneck who is uninformed of worldly events. "if you don't like this country get out?"

grow up and look around you, I'm sure you'll be one of those people, when the big 3 fall you'll be the one in your neighborhood smashing in the windows of foreign cars and pouring gasoline on and lighting them on fire, better track his IP and report it to the authorities seems like he's overzealous about the US of A. Sounds like a dangerous felon ready to do what it takes to make us buy American -_-

Nobody seemed to mention the strikes that the UAW have pulled almost a year before, not realizing that they were milking a company dry who was already close to the verge of failing.

I am part of the new generation, and yes I do dislike MOST American cars. My parents who are foreigners almost bought a cadillac years ago when the cts first came out, but there were much better options. I also ride bikes, and I would rather purchase foreign bikes (e.g. the big 4 plus triumph and italian) over buell and harley. MOST of the riders on harleys are despicable and just do it for the image. Harleys are overpriced pieces of crap using technology from 50 years ago. This exactly what happened to Harley years ago, when Japanese bikes were superior in every single way, that the government had to add tariffs on Japanese bikes.

In this day and age, we all know that Americans are creative, and that's all America is. If America cannot continue to churn out new products ahead the rest of the world, the rest of the world's innovators will simply catch up. All the new Harleys are garbage, I have a couple friends that ride the older ones from decades ago where reliability and quality were top notch on harleys, now they're just sold in image. I hope harley goes bankrupt someday.

It is absolutely ludicrous that somebody is trying to call me as a duty to purchase cars that are absolutely terrible in quality. Personally I would never purchase a honda fit, seeing as how the mileage on that puppy is complete trash, it's too small but useful, and is slow as hell. People in America are smart enough to realize that MOST american cars are pieces of trash and not even worth looking at. They may be improving their product line, but their reputation has been tarnished to the point that nobody is going to buy their products anymore. Every single one of my friends, no matter what race, would never consider and American car as their first car purchase out of college. I only have ONE friend that bought domestic and he owns a Ford Fusion.

And the people that dislike the sti, evos, look at the numbers, the money spent on that car isn't for quality interiors or comfort, it's for plain speed. I think you'll be hard pressed to find any car under 35k that will perform as well as the sti or evo, with the convenience of a sedan and AWD maybe the g8, but that's about it.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.autos_crisis_causes/4.html

This is informative and accurate.

morningsoup,

You sound as closed minded and bigoted as the individual you are assailing. If you believe that your post reflects your greater level of exposure or education or savvy you are wrong. You blanket (and untrue) statements about American cars reveal your level of ignorance and lack of exposure. What I love about people like you is you are always short on specifics. You focus on cars like the Aveo while ignoring the dozens of competitive models offered by Detroit. You say most of their lineups are crap but don't name any specific models or explain why all these models are so bad. As with many anti Detroiters you are basing your opinion on the fact that they dont offer ONE kind of car that you happen to worship. I will concede that if you want a small, AWD car with poor mileage and fast acceleration Japanese is the only way to go. Good thing such cars are low volume and arent of interest to 95% of the public.

With all due respect, this is the most moronic op ed I've read in a very long time. I take that back, in the last few hours as it seems stupidity is as rampant as bad judgment in our society these days. I am not even sure how you make the connection to Japanese and ritual suicide, which seems pretty stupid in its most basic form. Can the Japanese now make the same argument about purchasing blue jeans from the Gap and saying that's as American as slavery? I imagine that would probably get your heart rate up.........or it might not, as it seems you're already coming from a fairly protectionist point of view. Why don't you lay blame where it is deserved, the heads of the American car companies and their negotiating skills with the unions, their lack of foresight to build a variety of cars in addition to their bread and butter cars, and most of all, build cars that can compete on quality and reliability with the best in class. Instead of that, you seem to be laying blame on the American consumer for not being patriotic to go out and spend money to prop up companies with bad business practices. I am a "foreigner" who was born here because using your logic, I probably wouldn't qualify to be an American. An entire generation has lost faith in the build quality and reliability of American cars and in order to return that faith and confidence, they have to show they're dedicated to rebuilding that trust and confidence. They're now beginning to do so but it's somewhat late. Every friend, family member and colleague I know who bought or considered buying a car haven't even mentioned an American car as a choice decision making process. And this is happening in many parts of the country, so that speaks volumes as to people's thoughts on this subject. So instead of using guilt and patriotism to try and get people to purchase something, you should perhaps look at the product. You make Joe, the Plumber... look like a Rhodes scholar.

That's great, let's all just buy junk so that the domestic factories can keep......pumping out junk just so they can keep their jobs lol.

poster "1487" must be mechanic himself...

"Do some research please. The money is a loan and the Dems want to use some of the $700B that is already appropriated. Loans get paid back. Its not hard to understand. They loaned Chrysler $1.7B and made $350M in profit and got the loans paid back 7 years early. Your call that a "waste" of money?"

what good is a "payback" on a loan if the big 3 continue to lose money??? smart consumers do not support bad products and smart investors do not support bad companies, PERIOD!

first i have to thank the mechanic and 1487 because the former creates interesting opinions, and the latter brings out the blogger in me.

1487,

you use words like "anti-Detroiters" and u call people bigots and say they are bias in their opinions. You're still making the arguement about Detroit's gas efficientcy and product quality. This is about Capitolism. If you dont make money, you're going down. Get out of the way and let the people who still can make money take your place. You ever paid the consequences for making bad financial decisions? It doesnt sound like it. If you have, did the Government come and bail you out? I doubt it. And when did anyone get a check from Chrysler telling us "thanks for letting us borrow this"? We didnt! We wont get one from this bail out either. Loan? Please man, give me a break. I build Warships and Submarines for a living. If that isnt patriotism, i dont know what is. Besides, you cant learn what success is without failure. Capitolism works, but it hurts sometimes when you do it right. Another thing someone has failed to mention is this only in the American market. Either of the Big 3 make enough profits on a global scale to pull themselves up by their boot straps.

P.S. Please stop with the foriegn bashing. That is truley un-Patriotic.

my goodness, gimme a break. i'm all for buying domestic products. and i honestly think ford and gm are on their ways to make good cars. the new malibu is competitive against the camry, cts is now world class, and the forthcoming ford fiesta is going to be competitive against the honda fit. and that new ford raptor, i want one...even tho i'm a die-hard land rover freak. but this kind of editorial is as effective and convincing as the national guard movie ad/propaganda with kid rock singing in the background of ridiculous chintzy nascar racing. for me to want and actually go buy a new american car, i have to want it badly enough to plunk down my own thousands of thousands of $ and now regret it

when i first saw the new camaro in person, i was almost hooked. but then i went home and calmed down, i just couldn't forget that it's developed by australians from an australian platform and assembled in canada. and this is one of the most american of american cars. the challenger, based on an old mercedes and is the size of a whale, and also made in canada. the new mustang, not bad but i don't want to pay money to buy a NEW car w/ solid rear axle in the 21st century. do i care about the uaw autoworkers? of course! are they incompetent? no! camrys, accords, legacies, and mazda6's, and even merc m-class and bmw x5 and z4 and x6 are all assembled by american autoworkers. so sure, those're still foreign cars and profits go to the foreign companies, but they're also providing jobs for american labor when gm is closing down plants and laying people off 'cuz they've been making inferior products that people don't want. you remind me of warren brown of washington post, big detroit stooge, might as well be on gm's payroll

and patriot? am i not a patriot if i don't drive american? please don't tarnish the word patriot, as it was done so many times in the past 8 years, including the *patriot act.* we're not all morons. i'm not against government assistance for the big three, especially now, but i also don't think it's fair to force people to buy their cars just 'cuz they're *american.* it's still a free-market capitalist world, isn't it? right now the best car for MY money is a used and well-maintained mazda rx-8, or the mini cooper that i actually own. make a car that's as competitive, exciting, desirable, usable, and affordable to own (both to buy and operate), then i'll shut up

as for ford, fiesta is badly needed here. if the new mondeo is brought over here, ford will squash the competition. ford might even be able to squash audis and acuras w/ it

I think where the big 3 went the most wrong was by not offering quality entry level cars, and only offering premium small cars in other markets.

The problem that was created here was when people look for their first car they can't spend big bucks, especially on their first new car. Mine was an 02 GTI which at $19K was not cheap, but was a very nice car for the price. It had a luxury class interior, good mix of performance and economy, and I could actually afford it.

Ok, so now I am hooked. When it comes to my next new car what do I want to buy? Something that I have no experience with or something a little nicer than the GTI, maybe an Audi A4 that I know I can count on?

So my point is that entry level cars don't have to be crap, and the ones that the big 3 have been peddling here have been crap, even compared to their other cars. Think of the Ford Aspire, Pontiac Sunfire anything from Geo...

You have to build a customer base and you can't do that by expecting people who are unsatisfied with an entry level car to come back for a more expensive car.

That is another place Honda, Toyota, and Mazda have taken market share, their entry level cars were of at least closer quality to their more expensive models. So someone gets a civic, sure it is not fancy or terribly fast, but since the early 90 they have been head and shoulders above the big 3 in comparison. So would you expect someone who had a good luck with the civic to buy a Taurus or Malibu as their step up, or would you expect them to buy and Accord? Seems pretty obvious to me.

sm

CUBOZOAN: You like the RX-8? Wow! Let me define it in my own words:

Mazda has been trying to perfection the RX-8 for quite a long time now. It has a great weight balance that doesn't benefit daily driving. It has a unique rotary engine that burns oil, returns miserable MPG, is slower than ANY of its competitors, and it has just poor resale value.

The RX-8 is a great example of how people buy cars because of an unsupported aspirational drive.

"http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.autos_crisis_causes/4.html

This is informative and accurate."

Interesting article, 1487. I'd like to highlight two of the six points that are mentioned:

1) SUV addiction: American auto makers spent too much time leaning on the profits of large SUV's and let their smaller cars languish. I think they've learned their lesson, and hopefully cars like the Malibu and refreshed Fusion will prove that. As for smaller cars...

2) Lack of Small Cars: The article points out that Detroit's lack of competitive small cars has been hurting them since gas started its steep climb. This is the main reason that I have not looked into getting an American nameplate (I'm planning on ordering a Mini in the spring.). I'm sure that there are some who are quick to point out that the Cobalt XFE gets great mileage or that the Cobalt SS is uber fast, but I'm looking for something more than a one-trick pony. The XFE lacks basic luxuries like power windows, and the SS just looks awful inside(!) and out. The Cruze should help, but here, now, today, the American car makers don't have a decent small car.

So on to other issues:

Will I buy American to save the industry? No. I'll buy American when they offer a product that I want, and as of now, they don't. I can only buy one car with my money, and I'm not about to get something that I don't want just so GM, Ford, or Chrysler can stay alive a little bit longer. It's not worth it.

Should the automakers get a bailout? Only the ones that deserve it. If Ford comes up with a firm plan to bring over its European lineup, then they deserve some cash. If GM can keep introducing competitive cars, and can come up with a plan to stop bleeding $2 billion a month, then they deserve some too. Chrysler (excluding Jeep), as I see it, has no future. They would literally have to come up with an entirely new lineup of cars overnight, and there's no way that's going to happen.

There are a zillion arguments here. I could try to reinforce the ones I agree wtih and counter the ones I don't.

The key is that this country is facing hard times. Put the financial industry aside and we've still been heading for it. Why? Because our trade imbalance has been heading the wrong way for decades. People foolishly think that they're always going to have an income. I have news for you. You're wrong.

Oh by the way, you're welcome and I'm sorry. You're welcome because I go out of my way to buy American products when they're competitive and often better (from cars to lawn mowers to tennis shoes). It's people like me that keep money in this country and allow you to have an income. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that there aren't enough of me to have kept us from getting where we are now. I'm sorry that our efforts didn't cut it.

I find it entertaining that people who bash American cars for supposed inferior quality, probably didn't have a problem buying a Japanese TV (designed to last five years, not 25 years like American TVs were), don't have a problem buying Chinese tools (cr@p compared to American tools), and the list goes on. This country screws some stuff up pretty good, but it also does a lot of things very well. Find those things and support them.

You don't have to buy an American car, but you need to adjust your attitude. If you don't, you owe me an apology. I've helped keep this country going. You need to return the favor.

Besides the economy, I think the biggest problem with the Big Three is with the unions. I'm not saying unions are bad (I'm in one) but I think the UAW got greedy. This is something the imports don't have to worry about. The ones that do have plants in the US have them all down south where, from what I've heard, have less union influence. GM and Ford have taken great strides in recent years with their products and from what I can tell their products will get even better. That's not to say there isn't need for improvement... does GM really need the same full-sized SUV sold in four different divisions? I think a smaller GM would be better but as the owner of a newer (2007) GM car I have no gripes with quality or reliability... except for the horrid Aveo/G3. I think, product-wise, Chrysler needs the most work. Out of all American car makers, they seem to rely the most on trucks and other V8 vehicles. GM and Ford seem to be moving in the right direction with the Volt, Cruze, Fiesta, and Ecoboost. I bought American in 2007 with a new Cobalt (Why are there so many Cobalt bashers?) and plan on buying a new Camaro when I pay off my current car. I only make $40k so unfortunately, I can only buy every five or so years. I strongly support the American auto industry and the bailout money... as long as they use it properly. I would hate to see what this country would be like without the Big Three and the 3 million+ jobs that would go with it. Maybe The Mechanic went at it the wrong way but I agree with him to support the American companies. Sure a Tundra is built in Texas but the money still finds its way to Tokyo.

Well my post got buried way up high between the people bickering incessantly about what the American auto manufactures did right and what they did wrong. Who cares, you people are all missing the point. NO MORE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS!!! We are not a socialist country and I don't want to see us turn into a socialist country. The government should not be in the business of financing enormous loans to failing industries. That is not their job dammit!

The American auto manufactures will have to do what every other business in the Unites States does to raise/make money:

1. Go to friends and family for a "loan" (they're a little too big for that.

2. Get a loan from a bank (yeah, fat chance of that now)

3. Go public and issue stock/bonds (their stock is garbage, so that won't work).

4. Keep their costs in-line (with the inefficient UAW that will never happen, get rid of the damn unions, now!)

5. Sell product (that ain't happening either apparently).

Guess what the last option is, go bankrupt! That's right, and NO company no matter how big or small should be immune from following the rules above. NO MORE GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS, ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

As you can tell by my screen name, i am less then sympathetic to the big 3.

Does anyone remember the Chevy Celebrity? Aspire? and still the Sebring? WHo were the genius' that greenlighted these projects?

Does anyone remember the recent article about how Ford Execs are refusing to bring the 65 mpg Fiesta to this country because they do not feel that Americans would by it?

How about the recent article that Chevy will not bring the Chevy Beat to this country?

Mr. Mechanic, I will not buy American. I don't see Nardelli, Mullally and Wagoner taking pay cuts to save their own companies. Why should I invest my hard earned money on crap to save a failing business who buried themselves in garbage products and bad management.

If the big 3 do fail, the vacuum left behind them will open opportunties for other manufacturers to open shop and give more Americans jobs.

Your argument is noble and your intentions are good, but the argument that people should buy admittedly substandard goods out of civic duty is absurd. Its true the European market offers better cars that we in the U.S. cannot get or buy made from FORD and GM, and the lack of quality that you are now starting to see from so called American made cars is getting there, but i think its too late for the BIG 3. There really isnt any American cars anyways most of the parts and products are from another country anyways so if you have the money to buy another car buy what you want and read the reviews and data after all this guy writing the column like a month ago bashed the American autos anyways so, why is he sad and why does he care, he probably has a BMW anyways.

1487,

I don't need to point out any specifics as the posters before me have already pointed out specifics. I just said MOST of the American lineup is crap compared to the foreign, I did not say ALL. Maybe you should learn to read before you start attacking me as an "anti-detroiter", if that is even a real word.

Don't get so hot headed just because you may know somebody who is working in Detroit and may lose their jobs...like that famous quote "you F!@#ed up you trusted us" too bad you put your trust in incompetent people running the company, let these companies file Ch.11 and reorganize, this $25 billion "bailout" is just cash to burn hoping that the economy will change and maybe Americans will start buying pickups and SUVs again in the next couple quarters. They're not gonna use this money to revamp any product lines whatsoever.

1487 be my guest, and purchase that inferior product, and keep up the self delusion that some brands are better than others. "A fool and his money are soon parted" would barely skim the surface or your ignorance that most of the American product line is equal let alone superior to foreign product lines.

Open your eyes and stop being one of those typical dumb Americans that believe Barack Obama is a Muslim and that American is better than everybody else in the world. It is exactly your ignorant mindset that has allowed American companies to continue profiting off inferior products just because you think products made in the good ol USA are much better than made in China.

At 20years old, my first sports car I bought was a 73 240Z (220k? still have it!), my daily driver is a 93 240SX convertible and at 140k+ mileage it still gets 24 avg mpg. Now I am looking at adding the new 370Z convertible to my corral. Please tell what POS from the dumb3 can offer me anything of equal?

when i buy my next car ill be sure that its american or nissan
i wouldn't buy anything else because of my awful experience with toyota and that i can't stand honda styling

Zoolander, I was making a point that the Big 3 do not offer:

A compact RWD sports sedan.
A compact AWD performance hatch.

My next car will be probably one of those two. America does not make a car that appeals to me. They haven't ever. They went one direction, i went another. I want fun and performance - they build banal cars. If they made a COMPACT RWD sports sedan, I'd look. If they made a compact peformance hatch I'd look. But they don't. I can't help them. Nothing personal.

morningsoup, just so you know, I drive a mitsubishi, and AM not a felon haha. I also don't believe Obama is a muslim, lmao. I think the gov't should def lend, LEND, the big 3 this money. I don't want to think of what would happen to the country, should detroit shutdown. also to clarify the 'redneck patriot' accusations, I don't much like what this country does to the rest of the world, which is why I don't want to see our economy crash, as i'm sure you know, our economy affects the worlds economy. I don't like much of the american cars, but there really are a strong handful out there. look at the malibu, the chevy suvs, the mustang. i think these are all great vehicles, if you're in the market for them. NOBODY is saying, get out there and spend that money you don't have! sales are DEF down all around, but sales aren't non-existent. I think that people out there who ARE buying, should reconsider the american market. besides, MOST new car buyers purchase another car before the warranty is up, so who the hell cares about quality and whatever, unless you're driving some old piece of crap, i have a REALLY hard time believing ANY specific brand is 'in and out of the shop each week' thats just stupid talk, lol.

Fenixfire077

My bad, that was just my e-penor talking loud and proud, but yeah. I'm all for the bailout if the companies simply restructure their business plan and actually attempt to be more competitive and not be the big and bloated inefficient corporations that they are right now. Basically they're asking for money to place in a lotto for money to burn through again.

There are definitely many American cars worth mentioning, Corvette, Viper, Malibu, CTS, G8...the list goes on, but it's simply not what people want...I myself want a compact RWD 2 seater roadster once I graduate, but i doubt I will ever get a superfast car. Motorcycles are enough for my speed fix, everybody on here should ride a bike, it's a experience like no other, that's why cars are called "cages" =D

jr1m90 said, "Ok, so show me the American compact sedan that rivals the Mazda3, and I'll pay attention."

That is just it, the Mazda3 is built off a Ford of Europe designed chassis for the Ford Focus, just like like the Volvo S40, V40 and C30 and Ford decided that it cost too much to build an entry level model for the Ford line up off that platform. The U.S. domestic Focus is a generation behind platform-wise.

When a domestic manufacturer's image slips so far down the automotive pecking order that it can't charge enough to recover cost on it's best hardware then things are pretty dire and Ford has been there for a quite a while.

My father used to work for a subsidiary of the FoMoCo and got bargain one year leases throughout the '70's, '80's and '90's Sometimes those cars were literally falling apart when that year was up. Ford has come a long way on quality, real quality not the "Quality is Job 1" lip service, but the problem now is a lot of the people who got burned on the junk that they peddled will never come back.

""Tell me how buying a car "from" Detroit supports the US economy more than buying an "import" and I'll consider it.

Should I buy an F150 made in Canada, a Silverado made in Mexico, or a Tundra made in Texas?"
**************************************************
You should absolutely buy the F150 or Silverado. The Tundra made in Texas creates profits for a company based in Japan, and that's where the money goes. Sure, a good portion of vehicles produced by Ford, GM, and Chrysler aren't manufactured here; however, the profits from the sale of those vehicles stay here and support the "Big Three". That's why you need to buy a Silverado or F150. BTW-I live in Indiana, and there are plenty of Silverados built just a couple of hours north on Indianapolis."

You're absolutely right. That was a generalized remark. But my point was to point out that we live in a global economy and global companies like GM don't benefit any particular country, no matter its origin. Nike is an "American" company, but almost no Americans are employed by them. Conversely, Garmin is a foreign company that employs many Americans.
The concept of nationalism doesn't exist in our economy.

Another point I'd like to make is that the cost of any vehicle is primarily derived from labor costs (contrary to the UAW's estimate of 8%). So yes, a vehicle made in America does indeed ensure dollars are redistributed within America.

Tell me how buying a car "from" Detroit supports the US economy more than buying an "import" and I'll consider it.

Should I buy an F150 made in Canada, a Silverado made in Mexico, or a Tundra made in Texas?

May I ask you where you got your information? I literally live a 10 minute walk from where the F-150 are made. The same place where the mustangs were made until the new generation are produced in Flat Rock, Mi and of course the Model T. What people don't understand is your getting rid of 2.5 MILLION jobs if GM goes down. Let me say it again, 2.5 MILLION jobs. I wish people could just see what would happen for a week if GM went out of business. I guarantee you for each block I live in Dearborn there will be at least two more foreclosed homes because we are not going to "bailout" Detroit.

"There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong."

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

=H L Mencken=

So the 'Mechanic' votes for America?

Too bad that America left long ago.

The big three won't go chp 7 but reformulate under
protection of chp 11. If they can not make it with the legacy costs pared, then the game is already over.

IF there was a potential for turn-around, then banks would be lining up to lend (and a piece of the action)...alas, NONE are interested!

Did airplanes fall out of the sky when PanAm, Easterm, Braniff vaporized?

Btw I had 20 years in the auto tech field before switching into the flightdeck of bizjets. Watch for Euro/Asia/South America mfgs of aircraft to displace American mfgs (hint: Lear is owned by Bombardier of Canada). I can 'see' this coming from my vantage point.

Even Cessna is building the newest model (162) trainer in CHINA. Evidently, the 'Finest Welfare Workforce in Wichita (KS)' can be beaten by off shoring production. That alone speaks volumns....

IF the ballout is pushed through: first task is to fire anyone with an CPA/MBA/JD in any mgmt ranks and replace them auto engineers. Second is to can out the boards as they do not represent the investors or the consumer of the product...but their own $elf intere$t$.

Like James Brown once said "Living In America..."

Any wonder why Damiler wrote down their 20% holding of Chrysler to ZERO last quarter?

Can you say Bob Nardelli (of HD fame) as CEO?

What a classic Amerikan clusterf#ck, but truly
reflected of Amerikan values.

Mechanic, (now termed 'Dude' statsu) look in the mirror and step away from the crackpipe.

As always, your mileage may vary.......

"I have yet to see anyone that really knows about true sporty-affordable cars who would EVER think of buying a Cobalt SS instead of a WRX, or an SI..."

Road & Track would: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=7103

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"Mazda has been trying to perfection the RX-8 for quite a long time now. It has a great weight balance that doesn't benefit daily driving. It has a unique rotary engine that burns oil, returns miserable MPG, is slower than ANY of its competitors, and it has just poor resale value.

The RX-8 is a great example of how people buy cars because of an unsupported aspirational drive. "

I know this isn't related to the American car discussion but as an RX-8 owner, I feel like I really have to address this.

1: A great weight balance DOES benefit daily driving. It's part of the reason the RX-8 has as good a ride it does while still handling well.

2: In one and a half years with the car, I've added maybe 1/2 a quart of oil. That's it. If I can recall, it may have been because the car was delivered with slightly low oil in the first place. I've never had to add oil between changes.

3: Yes it is slower in a straight line, but that's not what the car is about. When the road gets twisty, a skilled driver in an RX-8 could keep up with a slightly less skilled driver in an E46 M3. http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

4: Resale value is a small factor if the car is kept for quite a few years, which is what I intend to do.

Fuel consumption is bad, but I think part of that has to do with the fact that the RX-8 is just so much fun to drive fast! I'm willing to make certain sacrifices to keep that tank full of 91 octane, and I'm pretty sure many other people here would as well.

"May I ask you where you got your information?"

Absolutely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_factories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chrysler_factories

I got that backward, actually. The F-series is made in Mexico and the Silverado in Canada.

I'm only 18, but I've had 6 cars so far, 5 American cars (with V8s), one Toyota: 1989 Lincoln Town Car, 1994 Lincoln TC, 1997 Lincoln TC, 1996 Lincoln Continental, 1990 Toyota Supra, 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
The Lincolns, from my experience are the most reliable, best deal, among used cars. Then there was the Supra. You'd think that a non-turbo 5 speed toyota with a 50k mile JDM engine would not have a lot to go wrong. WRONG! Within driving it about 700 miles or so the repairs totaled to $2000, on a $2600 car! Luckily I managed to sell it for $3900 (The fool that bought it must have been using the Toyota = reliability formula). By comparison, I drove my '89 Town Car 7000 miles with it needing like two oil changes.
I mean, maybe comparing 10-20 year old cars isn't very helpful for new cars, but then again, I don't think I'd ever buy a new car anyway. (It just doesn't make financial sense).

Patriotic?

Buy from Toyota.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade1207

The 2 highest paying jobs as Auto manufacturing goes are NUMMI In fremont California where i work at, and the other one is in Kentucky another Toyota plant. We make $34 an houre, and we buid corolla,tacoma and vibe which is a toyota just named pontiac.
BUY CARS THAT ARE BUILT IN AMERICA, NOT MEXICO OR CANADA. Support the automaker that puts food on american tables, simple as that.

"what good is a "payback" on a loan if the big 3 continue to lose money??? smart consumers do not support bad products and smart investors do not support bad companies, PERIOD!"

Name 5 "bad" products that are totally uncompetitive. What I dont get about people here is just because they refuse to buy anything that isnt Japanese they feel EVERYONE should be forced to have an auto market with less options. I dont buy Toyotas but I do not yearn for them to go under or insult the people who drive their products. What purpose is served by people wishing implosion on the BIg 3? Dont get that. If you refuse to consider their products regardless of capability or reliability that is your choice, but there is no reason to hope they go under. For years Japanese car fans have been telling us the only reason American cars are worth anything is they got competition from the Japanese. Can anyone explain to me how losing competitors is good for competition?

sabastian:

Accolades and sales are two different things. Why dont people ever reference sales figures when talking about how Detroit doesnt compete in small cars? The cobalt and Focus are two of the top 10 selling cars in the US. Only TWO import compacts outsell those cars- civic and corolla. The small car that most consider the benchmark is the 3 and it is handily outsold by Detroit's entries. The corolla is a mediocre car by most accounts and yets its the top seller. We all can agree the cobalt isnt best in class but its also 4 years old and due for replacement in about 18 months. Do you want to bet on the competitiveness of the Cruze based on what GM has been doing lately?

morningsoup,

You are so off base that its frankly embarrassing. You have no clue what you are talking about. I live in Philly- the same city that delivered for Obama by a 450k margin. I do not live down south, I have an education and I was not in favor of McCain winning the election. The problem with people as ignorant as yourself is that you try to put everyone in a ideological box. Just because I dont worship import cars like you do doesnt mean I am some uneducated hick living in a trailer park. I dont drive pickups and have never owned any type of SUV. I catch public trans to work so I pollute less than the most self righteous Prius driver. You dont have any facts to back up your bigoted positions so you have instead chosen to make silly personal attacks that really dont hold water. I asked you to give some substantive reasons to back up your claim that most American products are crap and you have yet to deliver.

fenixfire,

Everything you said makes sense which probably means you will be attacked and belittled here.

What's funny is that the same people who attacking the Mechanic now supported his previous anti-Big 3 rants. Now that he has suggested that the average domestic car is comparable to the average import and people should consider buying American his fan club has dwindled.

nissanfanatic:

Since you are posting here I assume you can read but when you accuse me of "foreign bashing" I start to question your ability to comprehend. If you have an example please post it for us to read. I have been talking about the competitiveness of the product and the falacy that buying a camry built in the US is the same as buying a Malibu. I have not bashed foreign cars at all. Some are mediocre (Pilot, Corolla, Camry, RAV4, etc.) and I dont think pointing that out is wrong. Especially when everyone here is so quick to criticize supposedly lackluster domestic products.

Another issue you have ignored is that the failure in the financial markets has brought about this day of reckoning. Things were not going great before this but the general consensus was that if they made it to 2010 they would be OK. The financial crisis wasnt caused by the UAW or the CEOs of the Big 3. Period. At this point I am willing to bet that almost every automaker is losing money in the NA market. The reason the Japanese can survive is that they have a lot of cash and are likely still making money in Japan and other markets. Everyone here is talking about accountability but the politicians and bankers who created this mess somehow get a pass. I find it ironic that politicians like Dodd who allowed this financial collapse to take place via lack of oversight want to grill Big 3 execs and lecture them about accountability. It's a joke. The US economy and tax revenues will take a serious hit if nothing is done. Furthermore the collapse of the supplier chain could endanger any future investments by Japanese automakers in local production. People need to forget about their irrational and all consuming hatred of the UAW and American products and look at the big picture. I submit that anyone who thinks its a good idea to do nothing under these circumstances doesn't care about the country as a whole. This is the problem with Americans, all thinking and decision making is parochial. We have idiot senators from south urging the BIg 3 to go bankrupt just because their states dont employ many Big 3 workers and because the loss of Detroit will benefit the foreign owned plants down south. What these shortsighted pols dont get is that the loss of Detroit could spell the end of new plant era in the south. If Toyota and Honda become the "new" American automakers by default they will have no reason to worry about backlash to their market positions here and can stop building plants here.

I think Thomas Friedman said it best:

Angry General Motors Fires Back at New York Times Columnist Thomas Friedman

Date posted: 11-18-2008

DETROIT — Thomas L. Friedman, the columnist for The New York Times who likened Detroit automakers to a crack dealer in a Sunday appearance on Meet the Press, was taken to task on Tuesday on General Motors' corporate FastLane blog.

Friedman had been taking potshots at embattled Detroit automakers for the past week, from his column to his Meet the Press appearance. On November 12, in a column titled "How to Fix a Flat," he accused the Motor City of "very un-innovative business culture, visionless management and overly generous labor contracts."

"It led to a situation whereby General Motors could make money only by selling big, gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks," he wrote. "Therefore, instead of focusing on making money by innovating around fuel efficiency, productivity and design, GM threw way too much money into lobbying and maneuvering to protect its gas guzzlers."

On Sunday, he was asked on Meet the Press if President-elect Barack Obama should tell Detroit to drop dead.

His response: "If I thought with $25 billion we could save this industry, I'd be for it, OK? But I see no plan right now, no reason to suggest that these people who have driven this industry into a complete ditch have a plan to get it out in the long term and not come back six, three months from now, for another $25 billion. Show me that plan.

"Remember, what was Detroit's plan two years ago when they, when they confronted this problem? It was to subsidize gasoline at $1.99 a gallon if you bought a Hummer or Suburban or a big truck — that was their idea of innovation. So, you know, it was like a crack dealer offering subsidized crack rather than, you know, going to a clinic to get — to get off the drug.

"And, and who is the enabler of that? The enabler of that were the Carl Levins, all the Michigan delegation who didn't go to these people. The outrage of these people, 'Now they — we have to save these jobs!' Where was their outrage two years ago, OK, about getting them to be more innovative, to getting them on top of the energy efficiency question? They have been enabling the destruction of this industry. So show me a plan. Show me a plan that says if we give you this $25 billion you're actually going to change. Absent that — remember, Tom [Brokaw], we're going to charge this $25 billion on our kids' Visa cards. This goes on our kids' Visa cards, and we have a moral obligation to make sure this is spent wisely."

Writing in the GM FastLane blog, Steven J. Harris, GM vice president of global communications, defended the automaker. "Mr. Friedman, what exposes us to failure now is not our product lineup, or our business plan, or our long-term strategy," Harris wrote. "What exposes us to failure now is the global financial crisis. Please know that you have an open invitation to come and visit GM. We'll be happy to brief you and we'll even show you the cool stuff."
______

I think there is enough blame to go around so it's important to now come up with productive solutions, rather than drumming up the patriotism argument for purchasing a car. As a free market society, we have to compete on merit and not rely on patriotism as a tool of free market competition. Borrowing from foreign cash reserves to buy American doesn't make much sense. We need to get back to basics, in everything we do. Which means doing more with less. As someone who works on Wall St, I see on a daily basis how innocent people are getting ripped off by complex financial instruments in my field, which isn't that different from slick marketing by automakers to mask other deficiencies.
We have a situation now in the financial markets that mask what the Detroit automakers faced the past decade, which is that of confidence in the product. Even though Detriot is building better cars, there is now a widespread lack of confidence in their product and it takes time to recover that because we're talking about a generation of young people now who believe Japanese and German cars are superior (even though in many cases they are not) When you have lost confidence in the product, as well as perceived long term reliability and long term depreciation values, that usually spells disaster for any product's lifespan.

Last I checked, GM has 55 "different" vehicles being offered in the US - compared to 28 from the Toyota brands. That includes the entire GMC line of vehicles that is based re-badged from something else in GM's stables. This ridiculous amount of offerings has got to cost money.

The big-3 - GM in particular - needs to go through the bankrupcy process to refocus the company. Drop Buick. Drop GMC (hey, they already dropped Olds years ago anyway). Their various divisions haven't made sense in at least the last 30 years.

I proudly drive a 2006 Mustang GT Convertible, and a 2006 Honda Odyssey (built in Canada...I'm Canadian). Though I love the Mustang for what it is, the build quality - like the car itself - is truly a throw-back 20-30 years. I wouldn't in a million years pay full price for this Mustang...as I bought it year-old for about $12k less.

As for the Sube WRX comments...I had one too. A 2002. And, I had a few issues with it - notably a fuel regulator that was leaking gas. The interior at that time was almost no better. Truly, I see this car the same way - a fun, purposeful car. But, I agree with the comments on the Cobalt SS - it's whipping all of them, and at a substantial price advantage. Forget the Camaro V6, GM should give the Cobalt a slightly updated look, and market it with half the effort they're throwing into the Camaro - it'll likely run circles around all these new "muscle" cars.

Anyway, I agree with the article, that there are plently of great Big-3 products (Malibu, Solstice/Sky, Lambda-based SUVs, Flex, Fusion, CTS, etc)...but, without letting them deal as a business without government intervention, we might just see an Aztek again.

Some of you who have left comments are very uneducated and most likely young and stupid and think you know everything in the world. You are probably are all virgins who's only sexual activity has been playing with a Barbie doll. Before stating that you hope American car companies fail, I would make sure you have a place for yourself before your parents loose their jobs and then your homeless. All of you are so selfish and all you care about is yourself. When you loose your job and cant even afford to buy food you will remember that you wasted your money on a Subaru WRX Sti that cost 35k+ and you could have gotten a AWD Fusion sport edition and saved yourself about 10k and bought American at the same time. If you think Obama is going to change things your wrong. We, citizens, are the only one who can change things.

People can rationalize that buying a Nissan built in America is better for the economy (and the country in general) than buying a Ford made in Canada, but ultimately, where do the profits go? Mother Japan. Yeah, yeah I know, theres all kinds of jobs created in this country because of the foriegn automakers buiding their factories here... but those jobs could very well be in American factories if the capacity was needed. (Note that new factories in the US from foriegn automakers are not unionized which is a major slap in the face to American factories that have to suffer with the burden of union benfits, which admittedly would be a major hurdle in opening new American plants in the US). The foriegn automakers are totally taking advantage of us and have even convinced many of us that it is ok!

Remember, the global economy was conjured up not for the good of the country, but that so a select few can make tons of money. Sure a certain amount of trade is needed, but to allow the things that have happened can only mean that money is king. A narrow view that ignores the big picture.

In my travels for business I have rented all sorts of different cars, different grades and makes and I find that they are ALL generally pleasant, competent and well built. I've heard horror stories about Japanese cars and great stories about American cars (and of course the converse as well). While American cars certainly deserved a bad rep in the late 70's to 80's, they have really improved to the point that patriotism can actually be a tipping point to buying one.

Congressman Ackerman from NY made a very good point at today's hearing. And believe me, I am no fan of some of the things Congressmen spout. He made note of the delicious irony in that the 3 CEOs who were there making their argument for a loan/bailout, all flew in on large private jets. He asked if they couldn't jet pool or even fly first class, if they indeed are going to ask set the example from the top up. It's a small and probably silly point, but it's an important one. Sticking with the theme of public perception.

I'm loving the fact that everyone here I so passionate. If only this went on at least a year ago. Because I don't care if everyone that has written on this post goes out and buys 100 "American Made" vehicles right now, it's not going to save them.
This is going to be a long process. Why do you think the bailout plan that Detroit is asking for is a 10 year loan? This fix will not take place over night.
I think we as true Americans do need to do our part and take a serious look at the difference between domestic and imports. the gap has shrunk tremendously, and I do believe we have cars that outperform the over-seas rivals.
But buying a car in this economy, when many people are struggling to keep up with the bills is not the answer.

Let's keep 'em comin' people!

And "curvenin", you post is more juvenile than anything I've read from these 'kids'. You should have written that last sentence and left it at that. I mean honestly...

On behalf of most New Yorkers (except the ones who voted for him) I sincerely apologize for Congressman Meeks being elected. If anyone is looking at the Congressional hearings and listen to this moron speak, it's no wonder they've got a less than 20% approval rating. This guy can't even form a proper, logical sentence.

@curvenin

You're seriously comparing a Fusion AWD with a WRX STI? Even with the potential "sport" version coming out, it still likely won't be the sports/rally car that the WRX is.

Regardless, it's not just the price. The Fusion is a "not bad" car, but, with still some questionable material choices, most folks would prefer spending more to get a Camry or an Accord. With a lot of Fords (and even Lincoln), this quality difference isn't just percieved. Hopping between my Mustang and Odyssey, the Mustang feels like the seats are covered in vinyl, there are some gaps between panels, and there's some questionable design choices in a car that costs $40k new (old fashioned antenna sticking out the front fender, cheap black pastic mirror covers, no trunk release button in the interior, etc). Aside from us enthusiasts that can justify buying a car just because the engine sounds great (okay, one of a few reasons I bought it ;-)), most will look for the small touches...nice materials, well placed controls, and perceived value for the money.

Cars like the Malibu, and even the Fusion are great cars, the problem is the competition is at least as good, and in a lot of cases offer the same value. These are the volume cars that the Big-3 need to get right...not the Camaro, the Challenger, and a 620-hp Vette (as much as we all love to "read" about it).

I own three Fords of exceptional quality and reliability. I fully expect each one to hit 200,000 miles without a major issue. Unfortunately for Ford, that means I won't be in the market for a new vehicle for years.

I just saw the 11/19/2008 ABC newscast with Brian Ross about Wagoner and Mulally traveling to Washington on Private jets to beg for bailout money. Wagoner who earns $16,000,000/ year spent $20,000 round trip to travel to Washington. First class would have cost $837.

Mulally earns $28,000,000/year also spent $20,000 round trip. His wife also uses the jet to fly around in.

How many Malibus and Fusions do you have to sell to make up that $20,000. trip? Let some other idiot buy the Malibus and Fusions to pay for Wagoner's and Mulally's trip. I WON'T!!!!!!

TAKE A PAY CUT AND ROUGH IT FOR ABOUT $1,000,000/YEAR AND FLY FIRST CLASS. SEND OUT THE MESSAGE TO THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER THAT THE TOP EXECS ARE WILLING TO SACRIFICE!!!!! WHEN PIGS FLY!!!!
HEY MECHANIC! YOU GO AHEAD AND BUY AMERICAN!!!!

"The small car that most consider the benchmark is the 3 and it is handily outsold by Detroit's entries."

...which proves that sales numbers do not reflect the quality of a car (which is why I don't typically use them as evidence). Toyota sells the Camry by the bucket load, but that doesn't make it a class leader. Likewise, just because the Focus and Cobalt made the top ten only proves that Americans are switching to smaller cars. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily good cars. The Cruze may be the light at the end of the small car tunnel, but GM will be out of money in a month or two at which time the Cruze will still be 16 or 17 months away.

the argument is pointless, nobody should be telling others what to buy. doesnt matter who benefits from it. people buy things they like. if OUTBACK is cooking substandard steaks then i will have to dine in a sushi bar too. simple as that. we have to look at the big picture, all other automakers are selling their cars worldwide, and american cars in foreign countries is a rare scene. and the answer to that is we are not making competitive products in the first place, and thats why we are now losing buyers in our homeland. stop complaining about the financial crisis, its not the cause of death. they have to find out what people are looking for in a car. performance and reliablibity dont come first here i think. its how u look in it and how superior u feel driving it. stop putting black plastic side mirror covers on mustangs and others, spend some time to design an interior that feels right. everyone else is using vinyl as a cost effective material for interior, but at least they spend time on details to make it look NOT so vinyl, or at least put some other materials in that dash or door panels so they dont sound so hollowed, like u r banging 2 empty soda cans against each other when u shut the doors. people pay attention to these little things, how can u NOT turn to imports when they are offering projector xenon and LED against regular bulbs on domestics. i think it is a failure the big 3 have to face and a lesson they'd better learn.

@ anorak

Check the name Carlos Ghosn. It might enlighten you. Maybe check the name Jim Press as well while your at it.

Your comments that Japan's car manufacturers only have Japanese in senior positions seem to be a bit off.

German and American car manufacturers should be included as well in your comments. It seems that a majority of their senior management are WASP. How come you don't seem to give them a hard time?

And since you seem to mention that you are of Indian decent, please let me know how many of Tata's senior management are of other orgin other than South Asian?

Before you run your mouth, check the facts first.

Where was the patriotism of the American auto industry after the 1973 Oil Embargo? These conglomerates were de facto custodians of personal transportation of 90% of Americans even in 2008.

Selling products which it led consumers to believe they needed when those same products and their relative fuel INEFFICIENCY have increased U.S. trade deficits to stratospheric numbers.

Getting people to borrow against their homes (hence beyond their personal liquid ability) and their credit to swap out personal cars every 3 YEARS, just to keep the assembly lines busy. Destroying American consumer's credit in the process. Much in the way a drug pusher operates on the street or in the nightclubs.

Colluding with banks to charge loan interest rates in excess of 23% to those who lacked that financial liquidity, to perpetuate the burden of "upside down" consumer debt.

Using 50 year old technology dating to an era when gasoline sold for $.20 per gallon, just to avoid re-investing in new technology that could have guaranteed prospects for perpetual dominance in the industry.

When a parent abandons their child the court intervenes to remove the child from the home. Society allows this for the best long-term interests of that human being - that child. When the custodians of personal transportation in America have shown a consistent pattern of abandoning the future interests of all Americans they should be treated with the same deference as the neglectful parent. They, too, need to be shown the door.

GM..put the engine and chasis of the Cobalt SS into a Saturn Aura. Use the Malibu and CTS as your measuring stick. Any car built after them should have the same or better quality and detail. Never settle for anything less. Stop the rebadging. Pontiac G5 & G3. Nuff said.
Cut brands...Hummer, Saab, Buick, Pontiac. You have more brands than you have money to invest in their future.

Ford...Bring your European vehicles sooner rather than later. Cut all the red tape. You have killer cars. Your quality is the best of the big 3 (never thought I would see the day). Revive Lincoln and give it the attention that GM and Toyota give their luxury brands. Kill Mercury. Its a waste of resources.

Chrysler...Sorry to say this, but they need to revamp everything. Quality is in the toilet. Management have literally given up. They stretch vehicle models way too long. If any of the big three need to be made an example of......it needs to be Chrysler.

Well "The Mechanic", I've seen about 25 posts...minimum, that hold a hell of a lot more water than the "you readers are all a bunch of commies" column you were allowed to get away with.

What brand of TV do you own? Where was your dinnerware made? What brand of shoes are you wearing (and no, not your tires)? And so on, and so on.

You see, not only is your argument that we as consumers all must go out and trade in our perfectly good autmobiles, foreign or not, is an unrealistic request; but I'm guessing a majority of the purchases within your household are from across the seas.

Being patriotic is one thing, but to risk your own financial security in order to make a .005% difference in pockets of those that make 8 figure bonuses while their companies crumble is simply outrageous.

I applaud the effort. But there obviously was not nearly enough thought put into it.

"Likewise, just because the Focus and Cobalt made the top ten only proves that Americans are switching to smaller cars. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily good cars. "

Those cars have been top sellers for many years. At no point in time has any small car from Nissan or Hyundai outsold those two cars. Period. You cannot dismiss the sales numbers simply because you dont like the cars.

Whoever posted those inflated salaries was wrong. Wagoner is $9M and Mullaly is $12M. Anyone with common sense knows both companies own private jets. If they already own the jets I would expect them to use them to fly execs around. I cannot believe the American public is so easily distracted by political theater designed to avoid the issues. The same congress who is showing off for the cameras allowed this mess to happen by not regulating Wall Street.

"Selling products which it led consumers to believe they needed when those same products and their relative fuel INEFFICIENCY have increased U.S. trade deficits to stratospheric numbers."

Do you really believe people are that stupid? I'm not. I never wanted an SUV and never bought one. This notion that Detroit tricked people into buying large vehicles is a joke and shows the level of desperation of the critics who dont have any facts to fall back on. Last year the lobbying group that represents the Big 3 and Toyota and other foreign automakers tried to stop congress' initial CAFE update because they felt it was unreasonable. Naturally the media only reported that the Big 3 opposed the changes because they didnt want to indict Toyota.

"Being patriotic is one thing, but to risk your own financial security in order to make a .005% difference in pockets of those that make 8 figure bonuses while their companies crumble is simply outrageous."

So to spite 3 execs that you dont know personally you believe its best for us to hope their companies and 2Million jobs disappear? Got it. That makes a lot of sense. The salaries of Big 3 execs are average for Fortune 500 companies and rest assured many F500 companies arent doing great right now. Wagoner said he would take a 50% pay cut and Nardelli said he would work for a dollar. Anyone with common sense knows that stock options are a big part of executive compensation. HAve you seen Ford and GM stock lately? Do you think Wagoner and Mullaly are doing well with all their shares? If they care about money it would be in their best interest to make the companies profitable. Only in America would someone believe you should flush a couple million jobs down the drain simply to punish a half dozen execs- many of whom actually have been making postive changes.

Although you dont want to hear it the truth is the execs that caused most of these problems are long gone. BTW, Germans ruined Chrysler, not the current team. I find it funny that people like Romney are going on TV saying all the management should be fired when Ford and Chrysler have recently made high profile hires from Toyota to help their turnaround plans. Should those former Toyota execs be fired too? Are they responsible for UAW contracts signed in the 80s? Are they responsible for the credit freeze and the 30% drop in auto sales?

Buy American? Show me an American car is better. Show it will last longer. Show me they will have fewer problems. Then try and tell me why we as an auto industry stuck our heads in the sand and kept insisting on larger vehicles with poor gas mileage and poor performance and yet touted more power well before the oil meltdown. Why did we not focus on quality instead of sheer profit and numbers? The CEOs obviously don't care about the economy or the state of their companies. I'm supposed to reward that crap? I'm supposed to believe they will change? Yes, be patriotic. Open your eyes and say no to arrogance, say no to waste. Kick the CEOs so hard they'll flip out of the sandbox. It's going to be a long time before I change my mind, or at this rate, there will be no "American" auto industry by then.

@1487
I understand you have your own agenda to spout off about, but you are COMPLETELY missing the point of a good majority of these arguments.
I'm guessing, and remember that this is just a guess, but I'm pretty sure nobody on these posts is hoping that all of the auto jobs fold. If you're hoping for that, you really need to head across the border of your choice.

My point was more about those of us, apparently not you, that don't have the money to go out and take thousands of dollars in hits to get rid of our car and then start a whole new long term loan on a new car. It's a great theory, but it's just not realistic!

By the way, Daimler was the reason that some of he recent Chrysler cars turned out as well as they did. It 'was' a horrible marriage, but just look at the 300. That's German engineering. Too bad it didn't work out...

But hey, you just go ahad and fight the good fight...defend those Execs and the wondrful job they've done at turning around the American Automobile experience.
If there was no difference, than there wouldn't be a reason to offer up to $13k off of a U.S. made truck and $1-2k off of the foreign counterparts.
I agree that most of it is perceived, but we need to do more to change the American's view than to threaten them with being unpatriotic and give them the guilt trip of job loss. I'm not risking my family.

I just bought last year, and it was a Toyota. Why? Show me an American made SUV that averages 18mpg, can hold my family of four and 2 dogs, has some good giddyup to it, and can tow 5,000+ lbs. The Outlook/Acadia/Traverse/Enclave does the trick...this year, but it was a year too late. The money I would lose to trade in my vehicle is too much of a hit for my family to take. So I guess I'm a commie.

One last thing from reading over my post

The badge sharing HAS TO STOP!! There's a big chunk of wasted money right there. I really odnt think it saves the money that the execs think it will. It seems like a waste of money to me.

But I could be wrong. I don't have figures on that one, it just seems like there would be a lot of these vehicles left behind and shuttled to the rental lots.

1487

I like how you like to call me bigoted ignorant, when obviously you did quick scan of my post. I do not worship japanese imports, I respect a great product when I see one. I have said there are a few American made automobiles that I think are great (e.g. vettes, g8, euro focus, etc.) yet you with your "education" or seemingly lack of could not even read clearly from my previous posts.

It's their reputation that has been damaged and will take too long to repair that is holding the "Detroit 3" (I wouldn't call them the big 3 anymore), down. When Korean and Japanese automobiles first hit the market here, it took them almost 20 years to build up their reputation of reliability and quality. Just like how the Detroit 3 have spent the last decade or so swirling down the toilet in quality. It'd going to take much more than the last couple years to change the consumer's perception of the quality of their cars.

And 1487 you need to get off your high horse because if you want to compete about being "green" I walk with my two legs to where I need to go.

All these products are personal preferences I don't understand why you're getting so heated for. It's like if one ice cream brand that employs millions was going down the toilet because people were no longer purchasing the ice cream you're basically getting angry at people because they would rather have Ice Cream B because they think it's a superior product. Then let's commence to ask the government to bailout Ice Cream brand A and let them burn through cash instead of changing up the flavors or the style of the ice cream to match consumer demands. Suddenly it seems so different when I use ice cream brands as an example instead of car brands.

1487 I don't know if your self proclaimed background is true, but from what I've seen, it's been you who has been doing personal attacks on every person that supposedly "worships import cars" that you seemingly despise so much...maybe your grandpops hated the Japanese from WW2? All i know from all your posts is that you love to e-thug and have an e-penor bigger than anything I've seen to talk the way you do. Grow up and expand your mind on that thing you call an "education" or lack of.

And I'm sure most of the people that purchase these cars don't have huge amounts of disposable income. When you're risking at least 20k on a brand new car that you will be driving for the next several years, I doubt many will take the gamble and believe that American cars will outlast foreign cars even if they really do. Their reputation has been tarnished too far for anyone to believe them, because nobody wants to find out their car is a dud after 150k miles on the clock and it's still their only method of transportation.

It's like looking at a student with straight C's and one with straight A's, and only in the most recent report card did the straight C student get straight B's. Most people are still going to believe the kid with the Straight A's again is a much better student despite how much the other kid improved.

USA suck period.
The level of your people can only be cheap workers of Japanese cooperations. They lead you chicken follow. :)

What could be more American than giving your money to the company providing the best product? So we should keep an inferior industry afloat as our patriotic duty? Where is Lenin?