2009 Detroit Auto Show: Which Direction Should Pontiac Go?

"Pontiac Vibe.....would aim to compete with Honda and Scion instead of Toyota"

Isn't the Vibe a re-badged Toyota? These people are complete morons. And when has Pontiac ever actually competed with those brands? More like continuously played catch-up. By focusing the brand Pontiac would be a great halo brand and give all of GM a direction everyone could rally behind. Instead of badly trying to be like those other brands they could be their own thing.

Pontiac, GMC, Buick is effectively one brand, as they're sold at Pontiac-GMC-Buick dealerships.
They can afford to split the badges however, as they are the same brand, same dealership.

Saturn dealership needs a fuller lineup, as it stands alone.

Saturn and Chevrolet brands would be more suited to low priced cheap sporty cars.

I think moving Pontiac down-market would be a good idea. Target the youth market with low volume performance cars. Doesn't that go hand-in-hand?

Oh yeah, they should bring back the screaming chicken.

I love the G8, but I love even more the idea of a Civic Si/VW GTI/MS3 competitor at a reasonable price. I vote for the bargain sporty/tech cars.

I think the first option would fail. There is room for maybe one car in that division, ie just the G8. I can't see three low-volume, rear-wheel drive models ever selling.

Why not a bit of both - maybe two small affordable sporty cars, say the Si, GTI, MS3 competitor mentioned above and a Solstice replacement, and at the upper end the G8. Kill the V6 and GXP models and offer the GT with a manual. Niche, 2/3 fuel efficient, sporty, fun, and exciting. That's a proper Pontiac brand.

I think Pontiac should stay the mid market performance brand (only please give it more then one performace product to sell) and Saturn should be the import fighter. Saturn doesn't have a long history so you can direct it anyway you choose without confusing buyers.

I don't think it should go too low end though, I'm thinking more European imports like the Astra.

Leave the cheap cars and bland family cars to Chevy.

The performance path would leave the Corvette and Camaro, arguably GM's two most credible sports cars, out in no-man's land, and the cheap performance route might as well be called the really-big-rear-spoiler route.

I say kill it.

Nissan, Honda, Mazda, and Toyota all compete against each other. I don't see why GM needs both Pontiac and Chevrolet to conquer those four brands. I don't see why GM needs to conquer all four anyway. Pick a company-wide direction, & don't feel like you have to cover every square inch of the market. That's the name of the game - specialization. Imagine that.

I think that Pontiac should stay sporty. Saturn was born to be something like Scion. They've recently taken a bit of the thunder away from Pontiac with the Sky and such, but they should stay in that "cheaper, youth oriented" realm. Remember, Scion is merely Toyota's response to Saturn. Toyota did it better, btw. It's hard to imagine something not "economy" coming from Saturn. They've had crappy cars for too long. Pontiac on the other hand, has a legendary heritage of being sporty and performance oriented. Now in this market, that means a good balance between performance and fuel economy - But they can manage it. All I'm saying is that Pontiac has the equity in their name to be sportier and Saturn should stay true to it's mission of being affordable.

Since when is the Vibe sporty?

There really isn't much of a niche for Pontiac when Chevy also maintains performance cars and often keeps the best stuff for itself, i.e. Camaro, that Cavalier thing, the Corvette.

I'd like the lineup to be cheap rwd hoon-mobiles, but honestly, I could never bring myself to buy a Pontiac. Too much damage has been done to the brand's image, no matter how good the G8 and future products may be. They should probably just kill it.

Oldsmobile had a long history too, and it was killed. So I don't buy that arguement. I'd like to see GM make Pontiac into the performance division it should be, with a combination of FWD, RWD, and AWD. It may not make a lot of money, but GM should consider the value of Pontiac as a halo brand. If not, the mildly-sporty econobox market is already replete with decent offerings; I don't think it needs a watered-down Pontiac.

As roar02ram said, Pontiac cannot be sporty while the Corvette and the Camaro are Chevies. Maybe the Corvette can remain a Chevy, but a car in the price and volume range of the Camaro HAS to be exclusively Pontiac if the sporty brand idea is going to work.

It won't happen, and therefore Pontiac is doomed. The small/cheap car demographic doesn't really know anything about Pontiac - those cars are better off being sold as Chevies if only for brand recognition. Besides, it's too narrow a range in which to sell cars. A Scion-only dealership wouldn't get very far without being part of a larger Toyota showroom, after all. So just end it all. The next phase of the bailout should be protection against lawsuits from all the dealers that are going to lose their business (and nothing else).

Perhaps GM should consider combining Pontiac and Saturn to bring most of GM's foreign import product under one "roof"?

Saturn could represent the European GM imports while Pontiac represents the Australian GM imports.
That also gets rid of some needless duplication.

Whether or not GM can beef Saturn or Pontiac products to compete with the X-games and other youth favorites is unknown.

The conclusion that I come to is that if GM feels it needs to justify the existence of Pontiac, then what's the point of keeping it around?

We're talking about a business here. Obviously, businesses exist because a market for their product exists. Several GM brands have been faltering over the past decade or more, seemingly because they haven't had a market big enough for their products. Demographics change. Consumers needs and priorities change. I've been saying this for awhile, but I think the biggest reason GM (and the other Americans) are in this predicament is because they've been running the same business model for the last 60-odd years.

We're all trying to debate what's better: a small, performance/techy car division, or a niche performance car division that concentrates on RWD. In my eyes, there's not a big enough market for either of these to justify an entire division of vehicles. GM will never be able to convince enough people to buy Pontiac cars with either of these plans and expect to make a profit, let a lot break even. The market just doesn't exist in the same scale as it once did. Especially considering Chevy, Cadillac, and Saturn all offer performance cars that fill both of these niches.

It's simple economics. And I hate to say this, but Pontiac deserves to die. In fact, it WILL die. The real question is if its demise will take GM down with it.

I disagree. I think Pontiac should soldier on with the G8 (give it a manual!), the Solstice, and a compact RWD sedan/hatch. As Olds has taught us, killing a brand isn't as easy as throwing a switch. Might as well make use of any brands left with a shred of product anyone can get excited about.

With Chevy’s performance vehicles being all fixed roof coupes, Pontiac has room to go Euro sport sedan, and keep doing the Solstice because it’s not THAT bad (they sell as many Kappa twins as Mazda sells Miatas) and the second generation could be a homerun. Chevy can’t do [real] sport sedans because they would be in redundant classes as their family/economy based vehicles.

Or they could make a compact RWD Caddy, but it would be nice to have sporty low-lux options. Pontiac has potential. The amber gauge clusters and honeycomb grilles are longstanding Pontiac trademarks that make them recognizable (even if suspiciously similar to BMW) and the amber cluster can provide some street cred to the goal of making a driver’s car, as amber is the least fatiguing nighttime light color.

kurtmaxx - that's actually a really good idea. It'd give GM an outlet for excess production from abroad. It'd be even better if they got the funky cars for which there is no US equivalent, like the G8 ST & the Zafira mini-minivan.

The only issue with that idea is pricing. It'd be odd for a domestic automaker's brand to be so completely exposed to the currency fluctuations from which pretty much every import automaker has shielded itself (US manufacturing).

Road to survival

1. Fire the whole design dept.
2. Hire an innovative young designer. Look at what Franz Von Holzhause did for them with the Solstice, and then how he helped revitalize Mazda. They need someone like that to create a new design language that consists of more than rippled plastic body cladding. Maybe they can hire him back soon, Tesla doesn't seem to be doing so hot.
2. Get a new advertising dept. Stop trying to be eXtreme!!!!
3. Build a hot hatch on the Cobalt SS platform. Don't forget to use completely different sheet metal and interior bits!!
4. Fix the Solstice's interior and crappy roof design. Maybe make the coupe version.
5. See how small/light of a rwd coupe you can build on the Zeta platform. Think sports car for this one not muscle car, that's the Camaro. If it's 300lbs or more less than a Camaro, build it. Base model gets the turbo 4 from the Cobalt SS, GXP gets the LS3. If Zeta doesn't work, try to expand the Solstice platform. No boats!
6. Keep the G8.
7. Pretend the last 20+ years never happened. Like I do when I tell people I "blacked out" at last night's party. When questioned, innocently ask "why, what happened?", then reply "no, I don't think I would do that. Must have been someone else."

This will never happen.

My issue with either arrangement is an issue that has plagued GM for some time. If any brand develops a vehicle that is desired and competitive, Chevrolet also gets a version. If Pontiac is to survive, no matter which direction they take, their products need to be exclusive to the brand. If the pattern of Chevy getting a version of all successful vehicles, all brands, with the exception of Cadillac, will go away.

I realize that there is a need to downsize the number of domestic brands at GM, but how many do they really have? Pontiac-Buick-GMC is essentially one brand, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer. That's 6 brands. I think the only ones that GM should divest (through any means necessary) are Saab and Hummer. Saab has fallen into a non-competitive shell of a car company and Hummer hasn't had a really good product since the H1. There was a Hummer concept, from a few years back, that involved a smaller vehicle with a turbo-four generating the power. What happened to that? We got the H3 instead. I think these are the only brands that need to find new homes.

With Pontiac-Buick-GMC operating as one brand, each taking a niche approach, I think success can be found. Pontiac should aim for mid-level performance, currently anchored with the G8. There should be a sport coupe, perhaps the rebirth of the Firebird, and something like the Solstice, but not a Miata fighter. So what I envision is a powerful V8 RWD sedan (modern Bonneville), RWD sport coupe (Firebird?), and a true Porsche Boxster/S2000 fighter.
Buick could address personal luxury, competing with Lincoln, Lexus ES, and Acura. GMC could concentrate on all medium and heavy-duty trucks.

i say they keep it sports oriented, with all rwd vehicles, but make them different price points
maybe use an iteration of the camaro but lower volume a lil higher price

Pontiac has a future offering visual performance and actual performance that appeal to younger buyers.

Pontiac is complimentary to Buick and GMC in this role. Pontiac is valuable to GM in this role. Pontiac increases market share in this role.

Styling that evokes performance, higher levels of performance tuning than other GM brands with shared platforms.

G6 is Pontiacs volume model. Many G6 buyers would not buy GM if Pontiac did not exist, and would not buy a domestic either, they would buy an import brand. GM needs to keep this type of buyer.

One small sporty car, one slightly smaller than midsize car (say G6 to 2007 Mazda6 size but not as big as Camry) and one high performance car (GT0 / G8 type) and one niche car such as Solstice. The niche car would not be offered all the time, but would be offered as market dictated and would always be low volume.

Get rid of G5, get rid of G3, get rid of Torrent, get rid of Vibe and offer a GM made small car.

Toyota sells TWENTY different models, GM can pare down the number of models offered at each brand, but should continue Pontiac, GMC, Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Saturn.

Let Saturn = Euro, why not let Opel run Saturn or at least continue to offer Opel designed/influenced Saturn's. Opel sells 11 models and there are at least 6 that are relevant to the U.S..

Eliminate Saab and Hummer.

I think they should get rid of Saab, Hummer, and GMC before hitting the delete button on Pontiac. Saab will be a fine brand with someone else's leadership. Hummer has no reason to exist any more. And GMC is just downright pointless to begin with. Oldsmobile had to go because Buick was doing better. Buick will be just fine and will do a decent job as entry level luxury brand.

Pontiac should either find a way to diffrentiate itself from Chevy somehow or it needs to be eliminated as well - we have brand sharing to blame for that. I think the Vibe can stay. It's the best selling Pontiac in recent years and it would be silly to stop something so popular. The Vibe will be the affordable Pontiac that gets everyone in the door.
The G8 is a GREAT place to start. Although gas prices aren't the best, a Firebird would be a great way to keep Pontiac viable. Get rid of the G6 and give us a Pontiac version of the Malibu. A Pontiac sedan version of the Corvette (call it the GTO??) wouldn't be a terrible idea if possible and would make that platform all the more profitable.

In the end, Pontiac will never ever be able to compete as a small, affordable, techy car company. It will never compete with Scion or anything like it. No one cares enough with the exception of the Vibe (and even then...). Saturn is much better for that.

Either kill Pontiac or make it bolder and stand out against all other GM brands like it deserves to be. It doesn't need to be fancy. It just needs to be different.

While Pontiac still has a good deal of credibility, I'd say sell it off. I'd rather see it become a low volume garage brand than the Pontiac of the 80's and 90's.

Also, as Benson alluded to, how can you be profitable if you buy a competitor's car, throw a new emblem on it, and sell it on the market? That's like me buying Big Macs at McD's and selling them on the street.

Pontiac should become a true sports car/halo brand. This would mean a serious realignment of the current vehicles that fit with such an approach including rebadging the Camaro and selling Corvette's at Pontiac/Saturn (that's right!) dealerships sans any divison branding. Then Pontiac would be truly ready to take on Nissan (Vette v. GT-R/Z, Fight!).

Kill the smaller Pontiacs or merge them with existing Saturn offerings to create a true Scion/VW competitor. Saturn would drop the full-size sedans and SUVs (crossovers are OK) in the process. This approach means the Chevy Spark becomes a Saturn and let the Cruze be the entry level Chevy. Buick and Cadillac can battle it out against the Touareg (and maybe the Tiguan) and similar ilk.

Chevrolet then takes on everything else that Toyota has to offer to try and stop the market share free fall. Toyota manages to satisfy a wide-range of customers through appropriate trim-level offerings. Buick could be phased out as a U.S. brand as a result or be offered at joint Chevy/Buick dealerships (it has "worked" for Ford and Lincoln). But, for example, is the new LaCrosse really necessary or could one offer the options available on a decked-out Malibu. Otherwise, the LaCrosse could be a separate upscale Chevy model like the Avalon is to the Camry.

Cadillac and Hummer (if it lives on) should be offered at the same dealerships (as is already the case in some places) and GMC either drifts into the sunset or only offers full-size industrial trucks (no more rebadged Chevys).

I feel like Saturn and Pontiac should be merged as they are both pretty performance oriented.. though I really don't want to see the Pontiac name disappearing or anything. GM has pretty well carved out niches. GMC for big trucks, because no matter how much everyone "hates" big trucks, there will ALWAYS be a need for them.

Chevy for the masses, as it offers everything from true performance (Corvette) to budget (Aveo) to in-between (Malibu) and pretty damn good trucks.

Cadillac, as the "luxury" brand, has done good for itself in the past few years, and although I can't compare the CTS's performance to my BMW's (CTS-V may be a different story but I'll admit it's out of my price range), Cadillac is really shaping up, and I don't think there will ever be another SUV like the Escalade. However, Pontiac and Saturn seem to be fulfilling the same niche, performance at a reasonable price. I know someone with a top-of-the-line Aura, and it drives pretty damn well. Not like a true sports car, but way better than most family sedans.

Meanwhile Pontiac tries to accomplish the same thing. However, in my opinion, most Pontiacs look boring and lack character. My opinion - give Pontiacs some character, and merge the Pontiac and Saturn brands!