Face-Off Tournament Final: Mazdaspeed 3 versus Volkswagen GTI
The battles have been waged, the votes have been tallied and our Face-Off Tournament has reached its final chapter. One competitor emerged from the Eastern Division a runaway champion, buoyed by a flood of well-earned public support. But the Mazdaspeed 3's place in the finals comes as no surprise given its repeated victories in Inside Line comparison tests. The Western Division champion had a much rockier route to the finals, claiming a mere two-vote victory over both the Mini Cooper S and the Chevy Cobalt SS. Yet, the Volkswagen GTI stands on solid ground as the original hot hatch and a continued favorite around the world.
Backing the Mazdaspeed 3 will be Vice Admiral of Vehicle Testing Mike Magrath, who is already clearing space on his desk for the Travolta-Cage Face-Off Cup. In his way will be Automotive Editor James Riswick and the scrappy underdog VW GTI.
The cut-off for votes will be Wednesday July 8 at 3 p.m. PST. The winner will be announced Thursday morning. Now on to the finals.
Opening Statements
James Riswick for the Volkswagen GTI
I find it fitting that these two cars would reach the finals, since they would be the two cars I'd choose between if I were in the market for a hot hatch. But, I'd end up buying the GTI.
There is no denying the Mazdaspeed's dynamic advantages, but its 63 additional horsepower and 1 second-quicker 0-60 time have to be put into the context of wicked torque steer. There was a lot of talk in the Mini-GTI Face-Off about the yanking and pulling associated with routing too much power through the front axle, but the Mazdaspeed is in another league entirely. Give it a little too much gas while turning left at a traffic light and the wheel will begin sawing about like the tiller of a Boston Whaler stuck in a gale. Get stuck in the rain and all that power will conspire with a lenient traction control to spin the wheels like a Price is Right contestant on 'roids. I don't enjoy driving into a hedge. Face it, in Mazda's effort to topple the GTI from its rightful place at the top of the hot hatch game, it turned the power up to 11 without dealing with the drivability consequences. It turns in good numbers in the hands of a competent driver, but it can easily punish a lesser pilot like a witty metaphor for a bad thing that could happen. At the same time, the Mazda's firm ride isn't particularly welcoming on crap pavement.
The GTI, on the other hand, is more balanced and sophisticated. It delivers a comfortable, well-damped ride while still feeling tight and controllable around turns. It's also better built, offers a nicer interior and gets better gas mileage. Oh, and you can get a two-door hatch version, a four-door sedan version and a dual-clutch automated manual transmission (although I wouldn't). The GTI is a hot hatch and a junior sport sedan at the same time. I've defeated two worthy opponents thus far with the argument that the GTI's well-round nature, high quality cabin and everyday livability rule the day. No reason to change now.
Mike Magrath for the Mazdaspeed 3
Agreed, these would be my two finalists as well. I mean, they would be assuming that the Volkswagen GTI lived up to its on-paper promise of a solid, well built car with every day driveability and sporting spirits true to the GTI's lineage. It doesn't.
I've tried this in paragraph form and faired pretty well, but I've got the confidence to try this a different way: With a list!
(1) The GTI is too isolated: Not in the Toyota way where you're barely conscious there's a car involved, but in this really unpleasant slightly distant way. Think giving your sweetie a massage while wearing those big goofy rubber dish-gloves. The GTI feels like there's a solid layer of rubber protecting you from the fun and sometimes harsh part of driving. You're confusing, I think, "balanced and sophisticated" with numb and unnaturally heavy.
(2) Better built? Here's a question: Would you own one out of warranty? I wouldn't. Owning a Mazda3 out of warranty is a different subject, crazy electronics don't go, turbos seem to. When that breaks you just get a bigger, stronger one! Win-Win!
(3) Torque steer: I have arms capable of holding a wheel straight, I can predict when it will happen and throttles aren't binary. Just because you have to floor the gas all the time in the wheezy GTI doesn't mean everyone does. There's a whole range of pedal travel, use it wisely. Smooth is fast.
(4) My kid sister has no interest in a Mazdaspeed 3.
(5) The GTI used to be cool and light and nimble, but now it's been dumbed-down beyond tactile recognition. If it didn't say GTI all over the place, you'd never want to drive it hard. It's so over-engineered it's no longer fun.
(6) Good interior quality and driving dynamics like a junior sport sedan? Sir, you're confusing the GTI and the Mazda 3 -- From your own blog on the 2010 Mazda3 regarding the last-gen 3 (which is the only Speed 3 available so far), "it's still holding up remarkably well -- we editor types are still throwing awards at it and its sales figures have consistently gone up. The 3 always drove like a junior sport sedan and its interior did much to back that up."
Rebuttals:
Riswick:
How dare you throw my own words back in my face. Especially when you don't even have a kid sister.
All I will say is that the junior sport sedan label could apply to both cars, but given the GTI's less hooligan nature and greater interior quality, it scores higher. Also, I think you're overstating the VW's isolation. It's a fun car, just not a wildly hyper one like the Mazdaspeed 3. Perhaps that's what this entire Face-Off Tournament comes down to. How do you define hot hatch? I err on the side of a practical, every day car with an ample dose of fun that doesn't penalize you with a rough ride or a disobedient power delivery. Oh and plaid seats.
Magrath:
Bread
Milk
Yogurt
Cheese - will have to go to the Cheese Shop for that
Paper towels
Klondike Bars.
Oh, sorry, have some shopping to do. Are we still pretending that the GTI is relevant to the hot hatch discussion anymore?
I could probably pick the GTI apart for being a lame successor to one of the founders of small, fun, sporty cars, but I think that would be a waste of everyone's time. So I'll just continue my shopping list.
Eggs
Crackers
Fennel
Oranges
..and maybe "Sorry" card for the poor sap who decides that plaid is a substitute for driving excitement.
So which hot hatch is the tournament winner?
Mazdaspeed 3 all the way! It is a true hot hatch!
The GTI is underpowered and too isolated, boring!
Mazda hands down. The GTI might be the better choice for some, I don't fault anyone for preferring it. But it's not a "hot" hatch, it's a comfy sporty hatch. This contest is about performance, and the 8-year-old Mazda totally shames all the newer competitors.
Mazda. I posted in the original announcement of the finalists, so consider this my official vote.
Mazdaspeed 3 is fun, but I bought a GTI and I see more GTI's every day. Isn't the true winner the one that actually sells? If I recall correctly, VW is actually turning a profit in these bad times. (The only other company turning a profit is Hyundai)
gah I can't choose. I'm spoiling my ballot.
GTI.
Like James said, the GTI is a junior sport sedan, and the Mazdaspeed is an overpowered economy car.
+1 for ms3. GTI lost sight of what 'hot hatch' is really about. 40k miles later, still thrilled with my ms3, I feel like mazda read my mind when designing the car
GTI based on the discussions above.
GTI: Mazdaspeed3 has horribly bad torque steer that can be difficult to control if you're not a competant driver, which is most people on the highway.
Mazda3: But I am a compentant driver.
Way to miss the point there.
GTI: GTI is tame, not isolated like a Camry. Mazda3 is a wild ride. When choosing a car to have as a daily driver, I want the tame car.
Mazda3: Grocery list.
What?
And of course, I love Mazda3's remark "Owning a Mazda3 out of warranty is a different subject, crazy electronics don't go, turbos seem to."
It's good to know that one of the most expensive components on the car is known for failing after the warranty expires. That builds lots of confidence.
I vote GTI.
Mazdaspeed 3 all the way.
I want a car that's a hooligan, something that doesn't apologies for being awesome, and can always put a smile on my face. And 200hp, does the turbo on the GTI even work? or is it just there for looks? Honda does that naturally. Iron block? wtf is up with that, evo, suby, mustang, corvette, none of the major players use an iron block anymore. Step into the 21st century, step into the Mazdaspeed 3.
I don't see how people can claim the MS3 is a "wild ride" or an "overpowered economy car". Both comments insinuate that the MS3 is unrefined musclebound car. It isn't. Over the two years I've owned my MS3 I've been impressed with how well it balances a calm daily driver with balls-to-the-walls excitement when you punch the accelerator. It's balanced and easy to live with- period. In the winter all you got to do is throw on some snows and you have secure and reliable transportation.
I test drove the GTI before buying the MS3 and have to agree with Mike McGrath on this one. The GTI felt too isolated and IMO had a bit too much body roll. Sure the interior is a little better in terms of perceived materials quality, but I would vote Mazda as the more reliable vehicle over the long-haul. BTW the 2010 speed will equal the GTI with respect to interior quality, though I'm not so sure about the red brush-stroked inserts on seats and door panels. Still I like it more than plaid. :-)
MS3 all the way for me.
Oh and the MS3 is WAAAAAAY sexier to look at. Love those promounced fenders and it's aggressive stance. VW ruined the current GTI/Jetta design IMO. Definitely more of a "chick" car.
My official vote is for the MS3. Zoom zoom zoom!
I'm sticking with my man in plaid.
GTI.
I finally got decent tires for my GTI, instead of those all seasons, and it made a HUGE difference... I was running people off the track (driving in the advanced group) while spinning my all season tires all day. Imagine what I can do now that I have traction.
All the negative talk about body roll is worthless because in the end it is controlled and the car has tons of grip.
GTI
No contest. Updated MS3 may be an improved interior but I'd love to see it next to the new GTI. VW has had extremely nice interiors for some time.
The real choice next year will be the GTI or a TDI in a Golf (or GTD).
+1 for MS3
it's a HOT hatch competition right? GTI has gotten too soft over the years
It's pretty easy.
The GTI is a hot hatch for old people and the Mazda is the hot hatch for young people.
GTI
"The GTI is a hot hatch for old people and the Mazda is the hot hatch for young people."
so is that a vote for mazda or vw?
The other day I saw a guy who must have just been this side of a hundred picking up his white ms3 from service at the dealership. He loaded his old lady into the passengers side, her walker in the hatch, then hobbled around the car to the drivers seat. Coolest old dude ever, even went wot when he pulled onto the main road.
When I was looking at purchasing a car, I wanted a practical vehicle that was also really fun to drive. Naturally, I moved towards the hot hatch category. Since we can't get a RenaultSport 200 Cup in the US, I came down to the MS3 and GTI. After driving both multiple times and comparing their features and build quality, the GTI came away as the clear winner. You can push it hard and have a ton of fun or throw it in 6th and cruise comfortably. To me, it is echoing the refinement in the 3-Series. The MS3 wasn't a bad car, it just wasn't up to the challenge of beating the GTI.
+1 GTI
Mazda 3
As something to live with everyday, I'd take the GTI.
My vote goes to GTI. It's more practical and convenient car. And if for someone 200 bhp isn't enough for city driving there are plenty of parts to make your GTI more powerful.
+1 GTI
MazdaSpeed3.
Mazda MPS (speed3)!!! Here in Europe the gti is for grannies. Mazda is much more for the enthusiast driver. How did the gti do at nurburgring compared to the mps?
Mazdaspeed3 definitely. Gti is too boring for my taste, maybe I should get one for my grandpa.
Oh one more thing to put the Mazda over the top. Price. The GTI is overpriced for what you get. When I looked them I needed to spend ~$30,000 for the options I wanted. The MS3 GT Nav I got cost $4,000 less.
Oh and Zoom-Zoom is a better tag line that fart-teg-nugen or whatever the German's call it.
So Nah-Nah.:-)
MS3 +1
As a daily driver, I'd definitely take the GTI. In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, "it's like the nominated driver at a new year's eve party: it's sober and restrained in a rainbow world of streamers and noise."
GTI
First off, for those who are mixing things up, this is a comparo for the "Currently Available" Mazdaspeed 3 vs. the current GTI, so no comparo fo the "Upcoming Speed3" or "ALL NEW Mazda 3"....
...yes, to each is own. But especially in these harsh economic times, a new car buyer is going to want the most out of what little money they have. With that right there, cheap doesn't come to mind when it comes to VW. I don't care how many commercials they play about their 3yr warranty deal, which is a joke. There's no way in hell a hard working 40 - 60 hr worker / commuter, along with most likely having to drive farther for a decent job, can even hold that kind of warranty. God forbid they want to use their car for fun too, or just to run erans along with their weekly commute, you can say bye bye to that warranty in a lot less than 3 yrs.
Also, bang for buck (yes, cliche but very true) Mazdaspeed 3 hands down beats the GTI in almost every aspect. This is NOT to say that the GTI isn't an attractive car (on the outside), but the Mazdaspeed 3 holds more visual appeal overall, and most importantly the performance. Now lets be honest, more than half of the consumers going after either one of these cars wants something with some punch for their daily commute, and the Mazdaspeed 3 DELIVERS. My vote, obviously, is for the Speed 3. You don't have to be a professional driver to drive the Speed 3 and keep it from going out of control, its just like any other vehicle, respect it and its capabilites, simple as that. If you can't control the basice operations of a vehicle through any driving situation on a normal commute / freeway / etc., you shouldn't be behind the wheel of any car, period.
While I really like both cars, I would pick the MazdaSpeed 3 if all things were equal. In the real world, I'd buy whichever car I could get a better deal on.
I bought a MS3 Sport. Best value, best performance, best brake feel, and I got a great deal. Lots of utility, too, even more than the 5-door GTI. Moved into a new apartment this weekend and fit all I needed incl basic furniture.
The GTI is also great and I strongly considered it. I really like the steering, transmission, daily driveability, etc. although I don't like the mushy/long travel brake feel. It's definitely a tough choice. I liked the GTI so much I convinced my dad to buy one. From time to time we swap cars.
WIN-WIN.
Nicely stated fogmic3
+1 on fogmic3's comment on warranty. VW has cut the warranty down to 3 years. The free maintenance only includes the 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 mile services, basically not much more than oil service. According to our 2007 GTI maintenance manual, the 40,000 mile service is the big one. Way to cut/expire the program right before a major maintenance milestone to save costs! Our GTI is at about 37k miles so far. Fortunately ours has the older, better 50k mile warranty.
Our VW service has been terrible, generally. We've encountered a pretty serious fuel pump/delivery issue that kept the GTI out for 2 weeks and they didn't seem that interested in keeping us informed of the issue.
My 08 MS3 has mostly been trouble-free, except that the rear sway bar bushings/mounts were replaced due to clunking, and now the cd player doesn't eject CDs. Currently at 27k miles
GTI all the way
rtgarcia
nice contribution to the MS3 cause. :-)
As an aside I think it's safe to say that all cars have issues, but I'd rather have a CD ejecting failure compared to fuel pump failure any day. :-)
To be fair there have been some issues with the MS3 HPFP. But I don't think it took Mazda 2 weeks to solve it. :-)
These front-drivers can't do this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwdcOu1Ns8s
I'm not a fan of the music in the video, though.
No beating that german build quality...and plaid seats are a tribute to the original '84 GTI... that's a good thing.
GTI
GTI
LOL vw's build quality is crap. As someone said, I wouldn't want to own one out of warranty due to their terrible reliability ratings. C'mon people! The gti is way too subdued and boring to beat the MPS. They're in different leagues. MPS is for enthusiast drivers and the gti is for grannies and 17 year old girls and no one else.
what actually defines a hot hatch? it all depends on the person, i guess. driven and owned both cars. BOTH CARS give the driver tons of feedback. one way or another the GTI lets you know what's going on with the car and it's association with the road. the GTI's road manners let's you drive with confidence. the GTI is exceptional. HANDS DOWN...
do you guys and gals remember driving your car and you're about to do something with it that in the split second before you commit to the move you feel butterflies in your stomach then it starts to surge thru you and then as you clear the move you get this mixture of oxygen and adrenaline rush thru you so fast that it just bursts in your head and leaves your whole body tingling in it's after effects as you're smiling yourself silly?
my mzdaspd3's doing that for me right now. you know what? after i submit this, i'm gonna go out for a drive. y'all be safe now.
I bought an MS3 in July 2007. I became totally bored with it in less than 12 months. It was supposed to serve as my daily driver and my primary track rat. It turns out that it excels as a grocery getter but it's a less than stellar HPDE car. I'm currently planning to dump it and replace it with either a 993 or E46 M3.
I own the GTi. I always had Japanese cars, and I still believe Hondas and Mazdas are better sports cars, but I wanted a change. I enjoy the GTi, but it is a gushy ride. Tossing it around on an autocross feels like making love to a fat swimmer in a broken water bed. Maybe not that bad. You really have to waltz with the car instead of athletically dive, run, and snickt snack around curves.
Reliability - I knew what I was getting. VW is not known for this. After less than a year, the car developed a clicking in the subframe when turning hard. One person I know had an engine mount break - very bad, very sad.
The door panels vibrate and the fix under warranty is to stuff foam in in around them. Hmm, what was fidelity again?
Don't get me wrong, I love the car. It is so refreshing to get into a European car after driving so many same same same Japanese cars. And I actually enjoy making the fat boy scream around corners.
If what you want though is a reliable, fast, and more responsive car buy the Mazda.
Did I mention that the GTi burns oil? When you drive it hard, you will burn a lot of oil. When you go to the dealer and ask this, they look at you like an idiot and say "It doesn't burn oil, it consumes it." Check your oil every week if you have one.
Oh - and regarding the comment about aluminum VS. steel blocks, I would refer you to the fragility of aluminum motors - especially when they have steel studs.